If this happened in the USA, every single protester (and innocent bystander) would be in jail or dead by now.
I heard they forced the retirement of head of the army who was refusing shooting on their own people and put the head of the navy in charge? Doesn't sound like it is going to end well.
Do you really say that in USA president could beat-out peaceful protest (yes, they started completely peaceful, I was there), and later say "it was done in order to install new-year tree"?
Considering what has happened in the last 12 years of global conflict, and the type of truth that has been reveled after-the-fact, it's amazing how many ignorant and absolutely biased people this thread has, all proclaiming the same old "we must support the peace-loving freedom fighters" and "Putin is evil" cliché.
""Putin is evil" cliché" ? That's not a cliché at all.
If you're saying that Ukraine == Middle East then you could say that USSR == Middle East. That's not true at all.
Russia is crushing nearby countries. Georgia with South Ossetia in 2008. Moldova with Transnistria in 1992. Chechnya.
Now they are crushing Ukrainian people for not loving their pro-Russian president.
I don't know about the Ukrainian opposition but Putin is pretty evil. And many people who live in countries that used to be a part of the eastern block understand very well why you do not want to find yourself in Kremlin's orbit.
So what, are the protesters just a bunch of violence loving psychos who are out there for fun? In how many circumstances do citizens take to the streets when the government is doing something perfectly justified? I know of no such accounts in history.
Also, please justify Putin's actions. I'd love to hear why he is the good guy in all this.
I have a hard time imagining what the best-case is among the likely scenarios for Ukraine, moving forward. Stepdown of their president, and then business as usual? A full military coup (like Egypt)?
It's likely now that Ukraine will end up getting split into two countires. To Russia Ukraine is a safety buffer between it and the EU, it's a matter of national security. Russia simply won't let Ukraine go, not without imposing severe economic sanctions, so Ukraine will suffer the split from Russia far more than it suffers now. On the other end, EU won't likely accept Ukraine with such sanctions attached. They already have Germany paying for Greece, Spain and Italy. Getting another mouth to feed will be hard to impossible to justify, regardless of how noble the motives are.
It's a stalemate. The only way forward for Ukraine is to let Russia have its safety buffer. If they want to join EU, they will have to split.
Well, things are at a stalemate now. Yanukovych cannot step down. He will literally be murdered if he does. His only protection is being the president. On the other hand while he remains in power the people will be protesting.
I think a likely course will be a "least of all evils" scenario. Yanukovych will make concessions to the opposition leaders who will then try to mollify the crowds. The EU treaty will be put back on the table and things will be dragged out for the long haul.
What is happening actually in Ukraine is what you get when 2 super-powers choose a foreign country as a battlefield. The stakes are high, because who ever controls Ukraine has the biggest say in the Euro-Asia region over the other (Germany vs Russia). Ukraine could play a key-role in a new form of union that Russia wants to create with it's neighbors. If Ukraine joins then, they have the numbers to face on military, political and financial level both the USA and the EU. If not, it's just Russia basically, the others don't add much to the sum.
Ukraine's elites are split, but of course they are not the ones bleeding on the street. They have average Joe's for that. This country became independent in 1991 but never achieve real independence (much as my beloved Greece) from foreign interests and now they are slaughtering everything and everyone.
The liberal west is using Nazi groups (far-right wing skinheads) to physically attack the current establishment. So it's for democratic governments to use Nazis when they see fit. The government responds in a very Russian way and you get chaos.
Mind you, that Yanukovych was at least elected and the people do not trust the opposition's leader either (and how could they?).
None of this is for the good of Ukranian people, this is just foreign super-powers tearing a country apart, for their own sake. Everything else is for mass consumption.
Both sides are equally corrupted. I feel sorry for the Ukrainian population because they are caught up on a spiral from which I don't know how they could get off, without getting hurt.
ps. As for the 19BN deal, what are you proposing exactly? If you have 19 BN for every Ukranian (45M people) out there, I'm sure they will be eager to hear from you.
Fuck the trade deal with EU. We are protesting against beating protestors, killing them, burning their cars, beating journalists, lying about not using weapons by police. Modern Ukraine never saw anything like this before.
Also, a Ukrainian alpine skier and her coach quit the games in protest over the treatment of the protesters back in Kiev. An impressive sacrifice, when you think of the fact that all her life she's been training for this moment.
I remember an interview in the early stages of the protest where the demonstrators were so proud of their non-violent and peacefully organized demonstration, showing how elderly people helped with logistics etc. How do they feel now?
They could still be proud. They are not the ones that started the violence. If someone attacks you, multiple times, with disproportionate force, and you somehow manage to survive and fight back, you can still be proud that you wanted peace and not violence.
According to your comment I guess you would like them to be ashamed that they were forced to defend and retreat instead of fighting back?
[+] [-] ck2|12 years ago|reply
If this happened in the USA, every single protester (and innocent bystander) would be in jail or dead by now.
I heard they forced the retirement of head of the army who was refusing shooting on their own people and put the head of the navy in charge? Doesn't sound like it is going to end well.
[+] [-] k_bx|12 years ago|reply
Do you really say that in USA president could beat-out peaceful protest (yes, they started completely peaceful, I was there), and later say "it was done in order to install new-year tree"?
[+] [-] iamwithnail|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] blackhaz|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] powertower|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] adrenalinup|12 years ago|reply
Russia is crushing nearby countries. Georgia with South Ossetia in 2008. Moldova with Transnistria in 1992. Chechnya.
Now they are crushing Ukrainian people for not loving their pro-Russian president.
[+] [-] spindritf|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] IgorPartola|12 years ago|reply
Also, please justify Putin's actions. I'd love to hear why he is the good guy in all this.
[+] [-] blackhaz|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] thearn4|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] eps|12 years ago|reply
It's a stalemate. The only way forward for Ukraine is to let Russia have its safety buffer. If they want to join EU, they will have to split.
[+] [-] IgorPartola|12 years ago|reply
I think a likely course will be a "least of all evils" scenario. Yanukovych will make concessions to the opposition leaders who will then try to mollify the crowds. The EU treaty will be put back on the table and things will be dragged out for the long haul.
[+] [-] yashg|12 years ago|reply
It's easy to see why Ukrainians would want to align with open economies of the west than with Russia.
[+] [-] atmosx|12 years ago|reply
What is happening actually in Ukraine is what you get when 2 super-powers choose a foreign country as a battlefield. The stakes are high, because who ever controls Ukraine has the biggest say in the Euro-Asia region over the other (Germany vs Russia). Ukraine could play a key-role in a new form of union that Russia wants to create with it's neighbors. If Ukraine joins then, they have the numbers to face on military, political and financial level both the USA and the EU. If not, it's just Russia basically, the others don't add much to the sum.
Ukraine's elites are split, but of course they are not the ones bleeding on the street. They have average Joe's for that. This country became independent in 1991 but never achieve real independence (much as my beloved Greece) from foreign interests and now they are slaughtering everything and everyone.
The liberal west is using Nazi groups (far-right wing skinheads) to physically attack the current establishment. So it's for democratic governments to use Nazis when they see fit. The government responds in a very Russian way and you get chaos.
Mind you, that Yanukovych was at least elected and the people do not trust the opposition's leader either (and how could they?).
None of this is for the good of Ukranian people, this is just foreign super-powers tearing a country apart, for their own sake. Everything else is for mass consumption.
Both sides are equally corrupted. I feel sorry for the Ukrainian population because they are caught up on a spiral from which I don't know how they could get off, without getting hurt.
ps. As for the 19BN deal, what are you proposing exactly? If you have 19 BN for every Ukranian (45M people) out there, I'm sure they will be eager to hear from you.
[+] [-] k_bx|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jnbiche|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] RRRA|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] blackhaz|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Kiro|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] levosmetalo|12 years ago|reply
According to your comment I guess you would like them to be ashamed that they were forced to defend and retreat instead of fighting back?
[+] [-] IgorPartola|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] k_bx|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gus_massa|12 years ago|reply
> Glory to Ukraine! Men and women, sorry not with you, not in Kiev! We hope that you find an opportunity to help!
[+] [-] sandro18|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zzzcpan|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vuzum|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] randomview|12 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] fuckpig|12 years ago|reply
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