Omega-3 fatty acids, which are important components of
many healthy foods, such as seafood, nuts, legumes and
leafy green vegetables, act to reduce inflammation
Score another point for fish oil supplementation, on top of the already enormous pile of scientific research showing it to be a miracle chemical (and I definitely don't say that lightly) [2]. Seriously, if you aren't getting enough omega 3 fatty acids, either from regularly eating lots of fatty fish or through supplementation, you're seriously missing out on some good stuff. Among supplement enthusiasts, it's consistently declared to be one of the only supplements that's actually useful. I prefer the liquid form [1].
It's not that fish oil is an unalloyed good, mind; just that we get way too much Omega-6 in western diets, and it seems that Omega-3 "cancels it out." In cultures with balanced Omega-3/6 intake, like Japan, fish oil has no benefit.
The great majority of effects tested and listed in the 'Human Effect Matrix' at [2] are either minor in magnitude or non-existent. That would seem to contradict your statement that Omega-3 is a miracle chemical.
(They talk about the dangers of Selenium supplementation in regions with plenty of bioavailable selenium in the soil, especially when combined with Vit E supplementation. These are not heroic doses either.)
Fish oil supplementation is, like most other supplementation, really only applauded by the supplement industry.
There's no proof any of it does much, which is why here in the UK all supplement advertising has to include disclaimers like "May benefit the elderly or those on a restricted diet"
IIRC, you need a 1/5 (Omega 3 / Omega 6) ratio, but our usual diet is so poor in the former that we end up deprived.
Palm oil, which is everywhere, has Omega 6 aplenty, and (virtually?) no Omega 3. In Europe, it is usually listed as "vegetal oil" in the ingredients lists. When it's not palm, they put the full name.
It took me a while to slog through that whole long list of references at the end of the end of the article, but correlational study designs don't impress more by being numerous, especially when most of them are published in middling-to-lousy journals. That's what isn't fun about reading about medical issues here on Hacker News: too many of the articles kindly submitted here are of much too low quality to be worthy of our attention. There are some intriguing ideas in this opinion piece, but basically hardly anything there is backed up by experimental studies, not in a human study and not even in an animal study. The title of the article reflects an attempt to come up with a One True Cause of depression that surely is not the one true cause (most doctors who are experts in depression, or in inflammation, do NOT characterize depression as an "inflammatory disease") and then the article goes off the rails from there.
Check back when there is better established evidence about treatment. A better read about depression by a more informed physician would be a book review submitted recently to HN[1] that was hardly noticed when it was submitted.
I took it and was surprised to learn I was in the high risk range. I tried a vegetarian diet for just under a month, re-tested and I'd dropped into the low risk range (this was the only lifestyle change I made that month). I found that a full vegetarian diet isn't sustainable for me so now I'm trying out only having meat once a day (usually for dinner) and will re-test to see what result that has. I suspect that the absence of meat may have been less important than the increase in vegetables.
The caveat is that hs-CRP isn't a perfect test because your result can be spiked temporarily if e.g. your body is recovering from intense exercise or a cold. That's why I think it's a good test to do more regularly and have longitudinal data for.
I've been spending a bunch of time getting more comprehensive blood tests recently. If you've any questions feel free to ping me (harjeet [dot] taggar [at] gmail).
Recent articles have tied omega 3 intake to increased risk of prostate cancer. Got a lot of press last year. I took Omega 3 for the last 14 years. Spent thousands buying Nordic Naturals from Whole Foods at $25/bottle. Whenever I'd stop taking it, I felt a decline in mood so thought it had good systemic benefits. When I went off it this time, I felt zero change before or after (haven't taken since last summer).
This study was the last straw. I'd already given up supplements and even a daily multivitamin as studies indicate no positive effect and possible harm. Now I take no supplements. The more I read the more I'm convinced it's faulty science and marketing. A healthy, varied diet of mainly plant based foods should provide all that most people need. If you look at links to omega 3 studies on Wikipedia I don't recall there being conclusive positive evidence, but maybe I'm wrong. Couple of links on prostate cancer study and whether it's accurate or not:
There were some well-reported flaws in that multivitamin study. One I remember off the top of my head from the study done with cardiovascular patients was that the "high levels" of vitamin D3 given to the participants was 100 IU.
Your link to the Herald Tribune and Mercola both recommend DHA (and omega-3). It is seriously one of the greatest things you can take, hands down. Nordic Natural is an expensive brand, and buying at Whole Foods is even more expensive (try Amazon, and a cheaper, but quality brand is Carlson's). It is hard to tell sometimes when you go off a supplement the true effects because your high DHA levels can take a while to be used up, and even then the body has processes to try and scavenge or breakdown molecules in other areas to make up for it. It is much more efficient and beneficial to provide the needed stuff in a useable form.
You can practically set your watch by the timing of the latest meme that purports to identify the One True Panacea for Clinical Depression™. Looking like it'll be time to pull the crown on mine pretty soon.
The link between depression and inflammation is news to me. Is it fully accepted, or still being worked on? I've had bad run-ins with both, sometimes, at the same time. A particular case was a bad burnout incident I endured a few years ago. I saw many doctors trying to figure out why my hands and wrists had enormous amounts of tension. MRIs, x-rays, and conduction tests showed no issues. I had to leave my job and rest for several months entirely to be able to use them again.
Because of this, I've always suspected a stronger mind-body link than traditional Western medicine currently admits to (obvious caveat of n = 1). It seems that whatever state my mind is in, my body follows soon after. Mental anxiety begets physical tension. It's like my whole body downclocks itself to deal with things.
The mind will get it's way, no matter how much you resist.
>Because of this, I've always suspected a stronger mind-body link than traditional Western medicine currently admits to (obvious caveat of n = 1). It seems that whatever state my mind is in, my body follows soon after. Mental anxiety begets physical tension. It's like my whole body downclocks itself to deal with things.
Um every western medical practitioner "admits" to this kind of mind body connection.
There are quite a few physical conditions that are commonly accepted to be largely psychosomatic in origin, including things like osteoarthritis. While it's probably true that the term translates to "it's all in your head" to most folks, a better translation is probably "it's mostly from your head". Stress and tension aren't just metaphorical; they're usually accompanied by actual physical/mechanical manifestations that can sometimes have a devastating and irreversible effect on joints, tendons and other assorted bits of framing, machinery and plumbing. (It shouldn't be surprising to find that the discomfort and dysfunction feed back into the emotional state, compounding the problem.) And that's just from long-term, low-level stuff that people tend to try to ignore. I can't recall running across a physician with any real experience (interns are another matter) who hasn't had a solid grasp of that concept.
Some premises of this article are at least sound, at least, fishy. Easy language, lot of promises, and a lot of plausible things but not necessarily with causal relation.
It starts with "We now know that depression is associated with [...]", where AFAIK we are far from pinning down etiology of depression (there may be multiple mechanisms, etc). And it is one of reasons why antidepressant have relatively low effectiveness. The abstract ends with a longer list of things that make it flashy.
Moreover, things like smoking are sometimes considered actually having mildly anti-depressive effect (though it is disputed).
I don't say that the paper is wrong. Just a paper not listing doubts and promising a lot should be less believed that one making very humble observations (but the later one would not make HN frontpage, hence the bias).
Can anyone acquainted with the hard sciences comment on whether this paper passes even a basic sniff test? The title of the paper and so many references to other psychiatry journals seem like potential red flags.
Inflammation in the body has been correlated with a lot of diseases believe it or not. Gluten is one of the big contributors to inflammation in the body. A lot of people laugh at the whole "Gluten Free" thing, but there's a good bit of evidence that significantly reducing or removing it from your diet can make a serious impact.
Can't wait to read this. As a person who has dealt with severe depression, and has come through it alive, I'm always interested in new research on the subject.
Pretty fascinating, I didn't realize there were any links between depression and inflammation. In addition to suffering from depression starting at a fairly young age, I also have allergic reactions that result in inflammatory responses to seemingly random environmental factors. This is something that appears to run in the family. I wonder if addressing the allergic symptom would suppress some of the depressive ones?
I suspect there may be some posts here dismissing a lot of this as obvious - but it's actually really interesting to hear further evidence that a lot of lifestyle factors really do play a large role as we thought.
The best part about things like this is that, as they say, they're amenable to change - you can affect them, so you can reduce the severity of the feedback loop that makes depression so insidious.
I have a conjecture about depression. I believe that autoimmune conditions (e.g. hypothyroidism, MS, vitamin D deficiency) are sometimes a result of the self-hate associated with severe bouts of depression. The individual feels adversely about their existence, and so the body sets about deconstructing itself. I would be very happy to learn this is never the case, but I suspect that it sometimes is the case. (see: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nocebo )
I suffer from depression for more than 20 years.
Here is what should be done to fight it effectively :
- take anti-depressants
- wake up every day early and at the same time (6 AM from Monday to Sunday)
- when there is not enough sun outside, sit 30 minutes in front of a full specter lamp
- eat healthy (vegetables & fish oil)
- have some physical activity (walking, standing desk)
- socialize
If I was able to effectively do the last 3 things I think depression would have no impact in my life.
I'll bet this new empirical scientific result will make psychiatrists and psychologists abandon talk therapy and their questionable anti-depression drugs, right away, in the public interest. Let's all hold our breath for that outcome.
I'm curious: does this imply that plain-old non-specific anti-inflammatory drugs combat depression? I'm aware that sleep-deprivation, cold-caps, and, oddly-enough, ketamine all have anti-depressant effects, and that these are mostly unexplained—would the link here be that these things have anti-inflammatory effects on the brain?
This would be a very interesting area for future research. Those drugs that you mentioned are not commonly linked with anti-inflammatory activity - feels more likely that it would be linked to more directly psychoactive properties. Anecdotally, I believe that anti-inflammatories such as NSAIDs (non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs, i.e. Ibuprofen and Naproxen Sodium) and Minocycline have been cited as having anti-depressant impacts. Minocycline is a very potent anti-inflammatory and has been used off-label in a variety of autoimmune conditions.
> does this imply that plain-old non-specific anti-inflammatory drugs combat depression?
Yes, but taking them doesn't solve the underlying problem, and they're not safe to take on a daily basis. If you were going to use an anti-inflammatory though then CBD or THCA would probably be better than, say, ibuprofen.
Look I'll just say it. This strongly matches the pattern of all the other hiding-in-plain-sight, simplistic explanations for complex bio-existential problems, that turn out to be bullshit.
[+] [-] pvnick|12 years ago|reply
[1] http://www.amazon.com/Now-Foods-Omega-Lemon-Flavor/dp/B001B4...
[2] http://examine.com/supplements/Fish+Oil/
Edit: added [2], a well-written examine.com page summarizing fish oil effects
[+] [-] derefr|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] partoutok|12 years ago|reply
[1] http://summaries.cochrane.org/CD003177/there-is-not-enough-e...
[+] [-] WalterSear|12 years ago|reply
http://www.wired.com/science/planetearth/magazine/15-06/st_i...
There are environmentally better sources, thought they are, naturally, not as cheap.
[+] [-] illuminate|12 years ago|reply
http://www.badscience.net/category/fish-oil/
The research hasn't held up, but the marketing and supplement industry pretends as if it has.
[+] [-] tasty_freeze|12 years ago|reply
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/podcast/transcript090313....
[+] [-] danparsonson|12 years ago|reply
Am I reading it wrong?
[+] [-] lectrick|12 years ago|reply
http://smile.amazon.com/Planters-Nutrition-Omega-3-Ounce-Can...
Cannot recommend enough. A handful for a snack is filling, healthy and not too caloric.
[+] [-] DanBC|12 years ago|reply
I haven't got cites but it was pretty clear on this BBC Radio Four programme - maybe someone else has got better sources?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b019dl1b
(They talk about the dangers of Selenium supplementation in regions with plenty of bioavailable selenium in the soil, especially when combined with Vit E supplementation. These are not heroic doses either.)
[+] [-] Nursie|12 years ago|reply
There's no proof any of it does much, which is why here in the UK all supplement advertising has to include disclaimers like "May benefit the elderly or those on a restricted diet"
[+] [-] pygy_|12 years ago|reply
Palm oil, which is everywhere, has Omega 6 aplenty, and (virtually?) no Omega 3. In Europe, it is usually listed as "vegetal oil" in the ingredients lists. When it's not palm, they put the full name.
[+] [-] irishjohnnie|12 years ago|reply
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16500874
[+] [-] tomgruner|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tokenadult|12 years ago|reply
Check back when there is better established evidence about treatment. A better read about depression by a more informed physician would be a book review submitted recently to HN[1] that was hardly noticed when it was submitted.
[1] http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/depression-re-examined-a...
[+] [-] Harj|12 years ago|reply
I took it and was surprised to learn I was in the high risk range. I tried a vegetarian diet for just under a month, re-tested and I'd dropped into the low risk range (this was the only lifestyle change I made that month). I found that a full vegetarian diet isn't sustainable for me so now I'm trying out only having meat once a day (usually for dinner) and will re-test to see what result that has. I suspect that the absence of meat may have been less important than the increase in vegetables.
The caveat is that hs-CRP isn't a perfect test because your result can be spiked temporarily if e.g. your body is recovering from intense exercise or a cold. That's why I think it's a good test to do more regularly and have longitudinal data for.
I've been spending a bunch of time getting more comprehensive blood tests recently. If you've any questions feel free to ping me (harjeet [dot] taggar [at] gmail).
[+] [-] awolf|12 years ago|reply
It's more likely about avoiding low quality meats, which unfortunately is what 95% of the meat produced in the US is.
[+] [-] cwal37|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mattgreenrocks|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 650REDHAIR|12 years ago|reply
"Cost is just $40 – $70 and it’s covered by most insurers, including Medicare..."[0]
[0]http://www.forbes.com/sites/melaniehaiken/2011/06/17/3-lifes...
[+] [-] yogi123|12 years ago|reply
This study was the last straw. I'd already given up supplements and even a daily multivitamin as studies indicate no positive effect and possible harm. Now I take no supplements. The more I read the more I'm convinced it's faulty science and marketing. A healthy, varied diet of mainly plant based foods should provide all that most people need. If you look at links to omega 3 studies on Wikipedia I don't recall there being conclusive positive evidence, but maybe I'm wrong. Couple of links on prostate cancer study and whether it's accurate or not:
http://www.cancer.org/cancer/news/omega-3-fatty-acids-linked...
http://health.heraldtribune.com/2013/08/26/dr-oz-omega-3-can...
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/07/3...
[+] [-] js2|12 years ago|reply
http://examine.com/supplements/Vitamin+D/
http://examine.com/supplements/Magnesium/
http://examine.com/supplements/Vitamin+K/
[+] [-] f1nch3r|12 years ago|reply
Edit with one quick link.
http://oregonstate.edu/ua/ncs/archives/2013/dec/review-most-...
[+] [-] matznerd|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bunderbunder|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mattgreenrocks|12 years ago|reply
Because of this, I've always suspected a stronger mind-body link than traditional Western medicine currently admits to (obvious caveat of n = 1). It seems that whatever state my mind is in, my body follows soon after. Mental anxiety begets physical tension. It's like my whole body downclocks itself to deal with things.
The mind will get it's way, no matter how much you resist.
[+] [-] dllthomas|12 years ago|reply
As just one random example:
http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/effects-of-stress-on-your...
[+] [-] aestra|12 years ago|reply
Um every western medical practitioner "admits" to this kind of mind body connection.
[+] [-] stan_rogers|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] stared|12 years ago|reply
It starts with "We now know that depression is associated with [...]", where AFAIK we are far from pinning down etiology of depression (there may be multiple mechanisms, etc). And it is one of reasons why antidepressant have relatively low effectiveness. The abstract ends with a longer list of things that make it flashy.
Moreover, things like smoking are sometimes considered actually having mildly anti-depressive effect (though it is disputed).
I don't say that the paper is wrong. Just a paper not listing doubts and promising a lot should be less believed that one making very humble observations (but the later one would not make HN frontpage, hence the bias).
[+] [-] adammil|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] stared|12 years ago|reply
http://cogsci.stackexchange.com/questions/5841/is-it-univers...
[+] [-] cpncrunch|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] LyndsySimon|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] abdophoto|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hmhrex|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] courtf|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jaggederest|12 years ago|reply
The best part about things like this is that, as they say, they're amenable to change - you can affect them, so you can reduce the severity of the feedback loop that makes depression so insidious.
[+] [-] kingkawn|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jonsen|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ivansavz|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lectrick|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] josh-wrale|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jmnicolas|12 years ago|reply
- take anti-depressants - wake up every day early and at the same time (6 AM from Monday to Sunday) - when there is not enough sun outside, sit 30 minutes in front of a full specter lamp - eat healthy (vegetables & fish oil) - have some physical activity (walking, standing desk) - socialize
If I was able to effectively do the last 3 things I think depression would have no impact in my life.
[+] [-] lutusp|12 years ago|reply
http://www.planet-science.com/media/24009/holding%20breath_9...
[+] [-] derefr|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tothelast|12 years ago|reply
Some further reading - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18267354 http://www2.kenes.com/wcap/scientific/Documents/Symposia/Tsu...
[+] [-] Alex3917|12 years ago|reply
Yes, but taking them doesn't solve the underlying problem, and they're not safe to take on a daily basis. If you were going to use an anti-inflammatory though then CBD or THCA would probably be better than, say, ibuprofen.
[+] [-] Lerc|12 years ago|reply
The drug that seems to have the biggest impact upon my depression is Etanercept despite it being primarily to treat my arthritis etc,
Ketamine would be cheaper. hell, heroin would be cheaper.
[+] [-] jmhain|12 years ago|reply
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/04/110425153602.ht...
[+] [-] benched|12 years ago|reply