[dhh]

I rewrote the code in this example to use the "Beginner's Version" of Rails (sigh). You judge which you like better: https://gist.github.com/dhh/9333694

[dhh]

Here's another version that doesn't even use private methods in the controller and uses a PORO for the email grouping: https://gist.github.com/dhh/9333991

[rubiquity]

I think a lot of blog posts use trivial and contrived examples for the point of explaining the concept. There's not a lot of people out there that are good at explaining complicated refactorings. Katrina Owen comes to mind as one of the few that is good at explaining such refactorings.

Perhaps if someone made a post like this with starting code that was more complex it would be a better example, and also harder for you to counter it with a couple gists ;)

[jlangenauer]

Isn't ConfirmedGrouperEmails here just an Interactor / Service Object anyway, but one that is derived from ActionMailer?

To my mind, this code is much clearer, which proves the OPs point.

[danso]

Thanks for writing this. While I often look for ways to take external-interaction-responsibility away from Rails objects, the OP didn't really make sense to me, at least in terms of saving time and making things more logical.

However, there's a distinction that has to be made in your example and the OP's. In the OP, the failure of the Interactor, including the delivery of emails, would cause the controller to enter the "failure" branch:

    if interactor.success?
      redirect_to home_path
    else
      flash[:error] = interactor.message
      render :new
    end

Whereas your example, the controller would take the successful branch if the data model was saved, regardless of whether email delivery failed:

    if @grouper.save
      ConfirmedGrouperEmails.new(@grouper).deliver
      AssignBarForGrouper.enqueue(@grouper.id)
 
      redirect_to home_path
    else
      render :new
    end

So we're not comparing apples to apples here. However, as a layperson, I'd have to agree with you: Why should the error be raised to the grouper-creating user, when it should be going to the part of the system that handles mailing? But maybe the actual details are more complicated than that...

[iamwil]

I can't seem to find it on Google. What's a PORO?

[tomblomfield]

I've spent the last few months re-writing a medium-sized code-base (several hundred thousand LoC) that looks like your version into code that looks like the blog version. Test suite run time has dramatically decreased, code is more loosely coupled and we see far fewer bugs.

> You obviously need to choose the patterns that fit the problem you’re trying to solve – it’s rarely one-size-fits-all, and some of these principles may be overkill in a very simple 15-minute blog application. Our objection is that Rails feels like it’s a Beginners’ Version, often suggesting that one size does fit all

This quote from the post (minus the "Beginners" jibe - sorry!) is my core objection. Your example works fine if you're working with a simple application. But the "Rails Way" feels like it starts to fall over when you get to medium or large codebases.

I feel like Rails could benefit hugely from a few core "Advanced" features that help you grow a small application into a larger, functioning business. Sure, you can add them yourself, but then you lose the advantage of shared standards and strong architectural conventions. Every new developer we hire has to learn what exactly we mean by "Interactors" or "Decorators" or "Policies".

[dhh]

Yes, rewriting a system after it's already settled and designed can indeed bring a cleaner code base about. But don't confuse that with "better architecture".

Don't even get me started on the hand-wavy "loosely coupled".

If this is a poor example, pick a good example. I'll be happy to code ping pong you whatever example you choose.

One way to spend hundreds of thousands of LOC on an application is to stuff it with needless abstractions. That doesn't make it "advanced", and it's not Rails that's falling over, it's probably just some shitty code.

Maybe that's a clue that your chosen paradigms weren't that helpful. Or rather, that they convoluted the code base instead of clarified it. It's certainly a red herring that you need to teach your abstractions to new developers and that it's an endeavor to do so.

POROs are great, though. Our app/models is full of them. We even added app/services too. The trouble I have is with people who, like you, fall in love with the flawed notion that their application is such a special snowflake that it deserves "advanced techniques". Bullshit. There are good techniques and bad techniques. Size of the application is rarely a factor, except in ballooning the ego of the programmer.

Anyway, the invitation stands. Present any piece of real code and we can ping pong on it. I enjoy talking about specifics and improving real code. I detest "oh that was just a poor example, but the general principle is..." kind of debates. If you can't produce a good example, you don't have a general principle.

[jfaucett]

I agree 100 percent with the statements in the first two paragraphs on "Part 1 Inflectors". I have first hand experience with every statement you made from testing to managing the callback dependency mayhem. This post seems interesting to me mainly for the test suite benefits alone, being able to maintain independency in the test-suite base would definately save lots of bloated stubbing and/or db hits. Im wondering what kind of time improvements the suite got?

[joenas]

Say you wanted to do the same thing from a Rake task or the console. Wouldn't an interactor be a nice thing to have then?