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MMM Receives Legal Threats

309 points| danvideo | 12 years ago |mrmoneymustache.com

89 comments

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[+] thaumaturgy|12 years ago|reply
Ken Popehat (http://www.popehat.com/) might be worth contacting. Even if he can't help directly, he might know someone who can. He's about the closest thing the internet has to a folk superhero in law; he has a "Popehat signal" (http://www.popehat.com/tag/popehat-signal/) he uses for a "call for pro bono help for online folks who get threatened with bogus censorious lawsuits" (http://www.reddit.com/r/IAmA/comments/1aokls/iama_federal_cr...) and he got involved, at least twice, with a university-area bus company that has tried to silence criticism on Reddit (http://beta.slashdot.org/story/185659).
[+] jimbokun|12 years ago|reply
Every time I see another example of frivolous litigation threats like this, I feel like one of the biggest shortcomings of the U.S. justice system is not enough pain inflicted on frivolous litigators.

This goes for patent trolling, too, obviously.

There should be a healthy fear of filing baseless legal challenges. Disbarment? Large fines? What's the effective remedy here, that doesn't go so far it dissuades legitimate cases?

[+] higherpurpose|12 years ago|reply
US should just adopt the European system for lawsuits. You lose, you pay. Yes, it has a downside, as does everything else in the world, but I think the downside is much smaller than the upside (compared to the current US system).
[+] atomical|12 years ago|reply
Who decides if they are baseless? From the post MMM can't even decide: "From what I could tell, there wasn’t much merit to their complaint."
[+] tdees40|12 years ago|reply
Looks like this has already made it to the Wikipedia page for Kiss Trust:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiss_Trust

[+] dmm|12 years ago|reply
50.204.172.183 seems intent on changing the wording to be more favourable to kiss trust.
[+] gesman|12 years ago|reply
... and Wikipedia is fine with it:

"This article appears to be written like an advertisement. Please help improve it ..."

WTF?

[+] daphneokeefe|12 years ago|reply
Aside from this current issue, which has no doubt raised awareness of MMM's website, one of the positive outcomes here is that HN readers may be exposed to some of the most awesomely good advice you will ever receive. Reading his posts has led me to understand that I am not alone by any means in my quest for financial independence, which is true independence. Check out his site -- you can begin with the "Start Here" link on the navbar.
[+] mberning|12 years ago|reply
I was not aware of the site before today. I looked through a few of the articles and came to the conclusion that it is a borderline religious frugal porn site. You can take a look at the site owners 2013 budget as a prime example. Assuming that your house and car is paid off and that nobody got seriously ill and no other unexpected expenses came up the guy claims to have spent 23k for one year of supporting a family of 3+ (presumably). It is hard to reconcile the claimed budget knowing the reality of supporting onself, even if you disregard things such as rent, car, and medical.
[+] xacaxulu|12 years ago|reply
MMM is handling this like pros! Hopefully this will serve as a blueprint for future people in similar situations.
[+] danvideo|12 years ago|reply
Maybe MMM site is a good place for it, maybe not - but the idea sounds great - to have a place where people can submit info about when this happens to them as well to publicize and share advice.
[+] atomical|12 years ago|reply
MMM says there isn't "much" merit to the claim. So there is some merit apparently. This isn't a blueprint for handling anything. He hasn't determined with any certainty if the post is libelous but is charging ahead full force to defend it? It doesn't make sense.
[+] tomphoolery|12 years ago|reply
I highly suggest going the "Something Awful" route, and simply just making fun of the lawyer(s) in question until they stop.

People like this should be treated the way they act. Like children.

[+] mildtrepidation|12 years ago|reply
Unfortunately, treating them dismissively -- while appropriate -- does not help discredit or dissuade them.
[+] kps|12 years ago|reply
“We refer you to the reply given in the case of Arkell v. Pressdram.”
[+] tanon500|12 years ago|reply
Organization who allegedly asked the lawyer to take action: http://www.kisstrust.com/

* Maybe this was just an incompetent attorney, but regardless, taking legal action against a website for a comment posted really demonstrates that the company isn't capable of using its good reputation to handle the situation, and therefore lacks said reputation. Can't compete on the merits - GTFO. /rant

[+] dubfan|12 years ago|reply
They seem to have a history of playing fast and loose with the law. See this thread on Bogleheads where forum posters discovered they took a forum member's post, put it on their site as a "review" with no link to the original thread, and had the gall to claim the text was "public domain": http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=107952
[+] trillium|12 years ago|reply
The site appears to be down.
[+] k3oni|12 years ago|reply
Well that was a good read. Seems that someone needs to learn how the internet works. Just put it on reddit and watch the Streisand effect in action :).
[+] tzaman|12 years ago|reply
It got here, so I think the effect is already well under way :)
[+] viggity|12 years ago|reply
FWIW, the kisstrust.com website appears to be down (giving a 404). Furthermore, I'd like to express my opinion that these lawyers are a bunch of douchebags.
[+] Pitarou|12 years ago|reply
Dear Mr. Graham,

It has come to our attention that the commenter "viggity" on your "Hacker News" internet discussion forum has suggested that the practising partners at the Law Office of Mark B Williams, PLC are, and I quote, "a bunch of douchebags".

My clients at the Intimate Hygiene Manufacturers Association maintain that this is an unfounded slur on their products, and insist that the forum posting and any derived or related content be removed forthwith.

Yours etc.

[+] Hawkee|12 years ago|reply
This reminds me of a case I was involved in several years ago, http://techcrunch.com/2008/07/17/channel-intelligence-sues-j... - It ended up blowing up in their faces. I remember getting the phone number to the CEO of Channel Intelligence and calling him up directly. His response was, "Can you all just stop calling me! We'll fix this, just stop calling me!" I believe they were trying to collect license fees to establish their patent, but in the end they had to give it away for free to everybody involved. Those who wouldn't accept it got no further legal action. 5 years later Google bought Channel Intelligence. Go figure.
[+] CaptJax|12 years ago|reply
As a lawyer who dabbles in IP/cyber law (not admitted in VA, so I can't help out), I really love seeing personal injury/criminal defense attorneys send cease and desist letters to publishers who are clearly protected under federal law.
[+] 6cxs2hd6|12 years ago|reply
Second letter:

> This will serve as formal notice to preserve all ISP [sic] addresses...

To paraphrase Churchill: "I may be drunk, but in the morning I will be sober, whereas you will still be an idiot."

[+] gesman|12 years ago|reply
There is no doubt you'll get flooded with offers to help. Someone reasonable, knowledgeable and efficient is going to have a good time.
[+] TrainedMonkey|12 years ago|reply
Well this one should be slam dunk to dismiss unless they file lawsuit in Texas eastern circuit court.
[+] Zancarius|12 years ago|reply
I think you misspelled "circus."
[+] dragonwriter|12 years ago|reply
Presumably, this a reference to the US District Court for the Eastern District of Texas, and apparently the reputation of E.D. Tex. relating to its popularity for patent litigation based on the way its patent-specific local rules has become generalized even further.
[+] final_approach|12 years ago|reply
Slightly offtopic, but oddly enough MMM is also a name of the most famous Russian ponzi scheme from the 90s. Laughed a little bit, but no parallels, of course. All the luck to this blog.