Long-time Austinite here. This is indeed a sad day, and our thoughts are of course with those who were affected. At the very least, I hope that this situation will cause us to make real strides toward improving the currently deplorable state of public transportation in this city, as it's now proving to be a real danger to human life.
I've lived here 12 years, and the only improvements to public transportation infrastructure in that time have been the addition of a single train line and a few of those long buses that bend in the middle. As the fastest growing city in the country, a city that relies so heavily on the tax revenues generated by the ~2 weeks of debauchery that is SXSW, we'll need to seriously improve the ability to move folks around without automobiles or the maddening traffic and inability to safely be on the roads (or, indeed, standing near the roads) between 1:30AM-3:30AM will continue to plague us.
As someone who has lived in Los Angeles (which has actually horrible public transit in that it doesn't exist really and is expensive), and now Austin - while our public transit here is sub-optimal, it's far from the worst in the country, and you actually can get most places with it (I lived here for 18 months with no car, so I am intimately familiar with it).
When I think of all the money spent in the name of improving and enriching the lives of human beings, it troubles me that we don't have a reliable solution for ending DUI. I know many companies fund research to end cancer or improve the quality of life for those with various diseases. While this research may help save or improve lives, it's motivated in part by a potential return on investment. Why can't we do something to prevent self-inflicted suffering? Those people did not need to die. While I don't consume alcohol I don't see why a person that has consumed alcohol should be transformed into a homicidal idiot after getting into the driver's seat. Since we can't seem to limit DUI, perhaps we can we make a car that won't operate when the driver is incapacitated? Although, I would oppose any legislation that forces such technology on everyone. To be sure, this remains a tough problem to solve (1). Rather than working around the problem (removing drivers or reducing the need to drive, limiting/controlling alcohol, etc) how should we address the issue? If we could stop alcohol-impaired driving the United States could save USD$51 billion per year and prevent over 10,000 deaths annually.
Well, I'd love to see some tech a la "Ghost in the Shell" that can just break down all the alcohol in the bloodstream on command, or otherwise maintains the euphoria without getting to the point of "I'm going to go drive my car through Red River tonight." When you're ready to go you just activate the tech and poof, you can drive again. And you avoid the hangover too.
But in the meantime, it certainly seems that the best we can do is prevent others from getting behind the wheel at all. Which really only works in an environment of peer pressure, backed up with at least one person that will go beyond words and physically restrain the would-be driver if necessary. Avoiding the bystander effect is difficult enough as it is, but when the person is drunk at home and decides that they want to go get some McDonalds...
The problem is letting people with DUI back on the roads. The punishments for negligent murder is only a few years; the punishment for just getting caught is often not even jail time, just a short suspension of license. (This guy had 2 DUI arrests already before murdering two people: http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2020640576_nseattleac... ) The punishments for violating license suspension are minimal. Want to get serious about DUI? Make this the punishment:
1st time: 10 year suspension of driving privileges, monthly random police tailing to make sure you don't drive that day (funded by the violator); if you drive, the rest of your sentence is spent in jail
2nd time: 10 years in jail, permanent driving privileges revoked, monthly police tailing as above.
3rd time: Life in prison
You ever kill or injure someone while DUI: Life in prison
Preventing DUI is a difficult problem. A much easier problem would be to prevent speeding. Put a GPS in every car that prevents the car from driving faster than the speed limit. All the technology exists, and this would doubtlessly save lives, but somehow I doubt anybody would pass the required laws.
I wonder how self-driving cars would impact this situation? Also: what would happen to a self-driving car that went through a sobriety checkpoint with the drunk person as a passenger?
DUI is a problem, and any human loss is painful, especially when avoidable. All that said, I feel like DUI is an overblown problem, in a way. 8 people dead per 1 million estimates incidents of DUI with a max. toll of 10k lives is not insignificant, and human loss is always bad. However, I disagree with your thesis. Curing cancer, raising the standard of living for the poor, and the death toll to obesity are all much more impactful things on society, though DUI is more 'senseless' and painful for victims.
I think limiting the need to drive is the only feasible option.
* You won't stop people from drinking in places where they can't sleep. Drinking at a bar costs 5-6x as much as drinking at someone's home, and yet people are constantly going out to be in a public drinking environment.
* Hopefully, we won't see mandated technology on vehicles requiring alcohol inspections for driving. Privacy, constitutional and technological issues all exist there. Yes, I know the devices exist, but they're clumsy, frustrating, and in the US are only used for people convicted of a 1st time DUI.
Solution: Incentivize people to walk or taxi home, or have a designated driver.
* By far the biggest immediate change that could be made: Make taxi services as cheap as possible. Stop limiting competition like Uber and the pedbikes in Austin from competition; while there are public safety concerns regarding drivers, I think the economic and safety benefits outweigh the risks. Cheap, responsive drivers = less drunk driving, period. ESPECIALLY in places like Texas, or most of the US, where public transit isn't ubiquitous.
* Allow mixed development and stop making suburban islands. If the hip bars are a three block walk from the houses and apartment complexes, fewer people will need to drive. Or, if you're making a suburban neighborhood, build the bar/drug store/grocer right into the town!
* The following thing is a dangerous and controversial thing to say, because it might imply that DUI is "okay": If you're going to drive after drinking, be honest with yourself. Don't say "I'm totally fine to drive". When you're exhausted on a trip, you don't just say you're fine and keep driving. You either pull over and sleep (get a cab) or you recognize your state and roll down the windows, turn on the radio, splash some water on your face, get a Red Bull, etc. If you are inebriated, say "I am drunk, don't speed, check my mirrors, watch out at all the intersections." That is a big cause of accidents, I'd be willing to bet. Whenever you see government propaganda about the dangers of DUI, it's the couple stumbling to the car, kissing each other, and not paying attention to driving. It's not good to drive when your body is impaired in ANY way, but the big problem is not recognizing your impaired state and focusing on the road.
---
Postscript: DUI checkpoints are shit, and I don't care what the Supreme Court says. It's an invitation for the police to create probable cause and search your entire self and vehicle, your insurance, and if you piss them off, your cell phone. Even if you're sober, avoid them/fight them whenever possible.
>At a mid-morning press conference Thursday, officials said eight people were still in the hospital. Five were in critical condition, and three were listed as serious.
I just... I just... WTF. Just WTF. We've had injuries and incidents at SXSW before, but nothing like this. Normally it's just busy nights for paramedics filled with minor injuries. A diabetic might get too drunk to remember to take insulin, or someone might just dehydrate and pass out. The worst I remember is bicyclists hitting pedestrians. I'd like to think the driver was just completely and totally blacked out, but his behaviour certainly seems to indicate at least a modicum of awareness of what he was doing, what with stopping at the gas station as though he were complying with the stop before deciding to tear down the Red River district.
>He was facing two counts of capital murder and 23 counts of aggravated assault with a vehicle, Acevedo said.
We'll be hearing about this case for the next year at least.
I don't want to take away from how awful this was, but in 2010 there were 10,228 people killed in alcohol-impaired driving crashes[1] - that's 28 each day.
So no, I don't think we'll be hearing about this case for the next year - it's actually depressingly typical. It just happens to have occurred at a large event that Hacker News has a strong connection to.
I was two blocks away at Stubb's when this was going on, and I walked through that area many times already during SXSW. I very rarely realize how fragile my life is, but events like this make it real.
"The suspect was asked to pull over at a sobriety check point and instead sped away from a police car. He smashed through a police barricade and then plowed down people, some of them lined up outside a nightclub, over a span of two blocks."
Well, "impaired meta-consciousness" is the problem. It's a fact of human life that when drinking, a person reaches a point where they are no longer able to make rational judgments. Not only about their actions but also about the level of impairment they are experiencing.
This is why drunks are dangerous - after X drinks they look at their car and think "I've got this" when in fact they are so drunk they don't know what they have anymore.
Good thing APD is protecting the public by keeping Uber out. The driver was definitely at fault, but we need to seriously look at how we design cities and laws. If the only way to get around in a city is to drive, people are going to drive drunk. Make it easier for people to get around without driving, and there will be less drunk driving.
People will seek out jurisdictions where driving is less necessary because they are safer there.
Oh for heaven's sake, there are other ways to get from A to B besides driving yourself or taking Uber. Blaming APD for this is a cheap shot, especially as the driver appears to have stolen the car from another town an hour's drive away and was thus not likely to be an Uber customer int he first place.
This is a terribly sad, sad day out here. Your comment, while partially true, is not really appreciated.
That said, you can't really be "surprised" by the enormous amounts of DUIs around here (even by our elected officials). I don't mean to be insensitive, but this is not an isolated incident.
This is a city that practically endorses party behavior, and has absolutely miserable public transportation options and a sprawling suburb area. It's a lethal combination that is getting worse and worse.
Sadly, we deal with on a weekly basis -- driving around here at night is not safe -- and there's no true solution in near sight.
I am just going to venture a guess that the kind of person who steals a car and flees cops -- first in a car and then on foot -- is not in Uber's target demographic.
Uber would not have done anything to prevent this from happening. Let's put this in perspective: the problem wasn't simply that the guy was driving drunk, the problem is that he fled from the police after they attempted to pull him over for driving drunk.
Based on the judgment that drunkard exhibited (fleeing from the cops) [edit: and the fact that he apparently stole the car], it's pretty clear he wouldn't have taken Uber even if it had been widely available.
> Make it easier for people to get around without driving, and there will be less drunk driving.
So... add more car services? What!? Grade-separated rapid transit (ideally with platform screen doors), aggressive congestion charging, parking maximums, and general Copenhagenization - these are actual solutions, not more cars.
The incident started after a police officer began checking for DWIs. The suspect, fearing arrest, weaved his silver Toyota sedan through a gas station and sped off, driving the wrong way down a one-way street. The officer turned on his lights and pursued the suspect. A second officer stationed at a nearby barricade was forced to move to avoid being struck by the suspect, who proceeded to further accelerate, drive through the barricade and strike multiple pedestrians.
The suspect continued driving "at a high rate of speed" for two blocks before hitting a taxi and striking a male and a female and killing them both. The suspect exited his car after running over the moped and proceeded to flee on foot, where he was apprehended and tased by an Austin police officer before being taken into custody.
"As a result of this person's reckless and willful disregard for the safety of the people, we have two individuals who are now dead," Acevedo said. The entire incident lasted under two minutes.
> Good thing APD is protecting the public by keeping Uber out
Could have done without the sarcasm here, but you are correct. Improving public transit options and treating car-dependent culture is the ultimate solution here.
To be fare, he didn't have anyone in his car at the time, so Uber isn't liable.
EDIT:
So, was this a stupid local, a dumb kid from UT, or one of the startup brats from the coast?
EDIT2:
"Acevedo said officers initially tried to pull Owens over at a gas station on the Interstate 35 service road around 12:30 a.m. Thursday. Fort Hood officials tell KVUE that the Toyota he was driving was reported stolen in Killeen."
[+] [-] techpeace|12 years ago|reply
I've lived here 12 years, and the only improvements to public transportation infrastructure in that time have been the addition of a single train line and a few of those long buses that bend in the middle. As the fastest growing city in the country, a city that relies so heavily on the tax revenues generated by the ~2 weeks of debauchery that is SXSW, we'll need to seriously improve the ability to move folks around without automobiles or the maddening traffic and inability to safely be on the roads (or, indeed, standing near the roads) between 1:30AM-3:30AM will continue to plague us.
[+] [-] the_watcher|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] trippy_biscuits|12 years ago|reply
1. http://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafety/impaired_driving/impai...
[+] [-] aspensmonster|12 years ago|reply
But in the meantime, it certainly seems that the best we can do is prevent others from getting behind the wheel at all. Which really only works in an environment of peer pressure, backed up with at least one person that will go beyond words and physically restrain the would-be driver if necessary. Avoiding the bystander effect is difficult enough as it is, but when the person is drunk at home and decides that they want to go get some McDonalds...
[+] [-] coryrc|12 years ago|reply
1st time: 10 year suspension of driving privileges, monthly random police tailing to make sure you don't drive that day (funded by the violator); if you drive, the rest of your sentence is spent in jail
2nd time: 10 years in jail, permanent driving privileges revoked, monthly police tailing as above.
3rd time: Life in prison
You ever kill or injure someone while DUI: Life in prison
[+] [-] pikachu_is_cool|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jakobe|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mdemare|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ToastyMallows|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unethical_ban|12 years ago|reply
I think limiting the need to drive is the only feasible option.
* You won't stop people from drinking in places where they can't sleep. Drinking at a bar costs 5-6x as much as drinking at someone's home, and yet people are constantly going out to be in a public drinking environment.
* Hopefully, we won't see mandated technology on vehicles requiring alcohol inspections for driving. Privacy, constitutional and technological issues all exist there. Yes, I know the devices exist, but they're clumsy, frustrating, and in the US are only used for people convicted of a 1st time DUI.
Solution: Incentivize people to walk or taxi home, or have a designated driver.
* By far the biggest immediate change that could be made: Make taxi services as cheap as possible. Stop limiting competition like Uber and the pedbikes in Austin from competition; while there are public safety concerns regarding drivers, I think the economic and safety benefits outweigh the risks. Cheap, responsive drivers = less drunk driving, period. ESPECIALLY in places like Texas, or most of the US, where public transit isn't ubiquitous.
* Allow mixed development and stop making suburban islands. If the hip bars are a three block walk from the houses and apartment complexes, fewer people will need to drive. Or, if you're making a suburban neighborhood, build the bar/drug store/grocer right into the town!
* The following thing is a dangerous and controversial thing to say, because it might imply that DUI is "okay": If you're going to drive after drinking, be honest with yourself. Don't say "I'm totally fine to drive". When you're exhausted on a trip, you don't just say you're fine and keep driving. You either pull over and sleep (get a cab) or you recognize your state and roll down the windows, turn on the radio, splash some water on your face, get a Red Bull, etc. If you are inebriated, say "I am drunk, don't speed, check my mirrors, watch out at all the intersections." That is a big cause of accidents, I'd be willing to bet. Whenever you see government propaganda about the dangers of DUI, it's the couple stumbling to the car, kissing each other, and not paying attention to driving. It's not good to drive when your body is impaired in ANY way, but the big problem is not recognizing your impaired state and focusing on the road.
---
Postscript: DUI checkpoints are shit, and I don't care what the Supreme Court says. It's an invitation for the police to create probable cause and search your entire self and vehicle, your insurance, and if you piss them off, your cell phone. Even if you're sober, avoid them/fight them whenever possible.
[+] [-] smackfu|12 years ago|reply
Seems like the drunk made a run for it but mistakenly went down a street that was closed for pedestrians, which is why there were so many injuries.
[+] [-] aspensmonster|12 years ago|reply
I just... I just... WTF. Just WTF. We've had injuries and incidents at SXSW before, but nothing like this. Normally it's just busy nights for paramedics filled with minor injuries. A diabetic might get too drunk to remember to take insulin, or someone might just dehydrate and pass out. The worst I remember is bicyclists hitting pedestrians. I'd like to think the driver was just completely and totally blacked out, but his behaviour certainly seems to indicate at least a modicum of awareness of what he was doing, what with stopping at the gas station as though he were complying with the stop before deciding to tear down the Red River district.
>He was facing two counts of capital murder and 23 counts of aggravated assault with a vehicle, Acevedo said.
We'll be hearing about this case for the next year at least.
[+] [-] untog|12 years ago|reply
So no, I don't think we'll be hearing about this case for the next year - it's actually depressingly typical. It just happens to have occurred at a large event that Hacker News has a strong connection to.
[1] http://www.cdc.gov/motorvehiclesafety/impaired_driving/impai...
[+] [-] jmz92|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] csbrooks|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dpritchett|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] smackfu|12 years ago|reply
"The suspect was asked to pull over at a sobriety check point and instead sped away from a police car. He smashed through a police barricade and then plowed down people, some of them lined up outside a nightclub, over a span of two blocks."
[+] [-] IpxqwidxG|12 years ago|reply
These incidences always force me to think something is wrong -- seriously wrong -- with this world. But keeping the faith.
[+] [-] Codhisattva|12 years ago|reply
This is why drunks are dangerous - after X drinks they look at their car and think "I've got this" when in fact they are so drunk they don't know what they have anymore.
[+] [-] paddy_m|12 years ago|reply
People will seek out jurisdictions where driving is less necessary because they are safer there.
[+] [-] anigbrowl|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] MicroBerto|12 years ago|reply
This is a terribly sad, sad day out here. Your comment, while partially true, is not really appreciated.
That said, you can't really be "surprised" by the enormous amounts of DUIs around here (even by our elected officials). I don't mean to be insensitive, but this is not an isolated incident.
This is a city that practically endorses party behavior, and has absolutely miserable public transportation options and a sprawling suburb area. It's a lethal combination that is getting worse and worse.
Sadly, we deal with on a weekly basis -- driving around here at night is not safe -- and there's no true solution in near sight.
Not happy.
[+] [-] jessedhillon|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] xbonez|12 years ago|reply
How about not drink if they know they have to drive later. Drink only when you have alternative means of transport, or a DD.
[+] [-] gamblor956|12 years ago|reply
Based on the judgment that drunkard exhibited (fleeing from the cops) [edit: and the fact that he apparently stole the car], it's pretty clear he wouldn't have taken Uber even if it had been widely available.
[+] [-] nsmnsf|12 years ago|reply
So... add more car services? What!? Grade-separated rapid transit (ideally with platform screen doors), aggressive congestion charging, parking maximums, and general Copenhagenization - these are actual solutions, not more cars.
[+] [-] retr0grad3|12 years ago|reply
From http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/2-dead-21-injured-in-...
The incident started after a police officer began checking for DWIs. The suspect, fearing arrest, weaved his silver Toyota sedan through a gas station and sped off, driving the wrong way down a one-way street. The officer turned on his lights and pursued the suspect. A second officer stationed at a nearby barricade was forced to move to avoid being struck by the suspect, who proceeded to further accelerate, drive through the barricade and strike multiple pedestrians.
The suspect continued driving "at a high rate of speed" for two blocks before hitting a taxi and striking a male and a female and killing them both. The suspect exited his car after running over the moped and proceeded to flee on foot, where he was apprehended and tased by an Austin police officer before being taken into custody.
"As a result of this person's reckless and willful disregard for the safety of the people, we have two individuals who are now dead," Acevedo said. The entire incident lasted under two minutes.
Read more: http://www.rollingstone.com/music/news/2-dead-21-injured-in-... Follow us: @rollingstone on Twitter | RollingStone on Facebook
[+] [-] iamjs|12 years ago|reply
Could have done without the sarcasm here, but you are correct. Improving public transit options and treating car-dependent culture is the ultimate solution here.
[+] [-] angersock|12 years ago|reply
EDIT:
So, was this a stupid local, a dumb kid from UT, or one of the startup brats from the coast?
EDIT2:
"Acevedo said officers initially tried to pull Owens over at a gas station on the Interstate 35 service road around 12:30 a.m. Thursday. Fort Hood officials tell KVUE that the Toyota he was driving was reported stolen in Killeen."
Huh, interesting.
[+] [-] Jtsummers|12 years ago|reply
2) Uber's not involved, unless that was intended as sarcasm of some sort.
3) Per the article, the identity of the driver hasn't been revealed. EDIT: Seems the article was edited?
[+] [-] fletchowns|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Spockulus_Rift|12 years ago|reply
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