> If a 10-year-old can become an ace web programmer, why can’t a liberal arts graduate?
Most 10-year-olds can't become ace web programmers (well, given an infinite time horizon, maybe they can, but then they aren't 10-year-olds anymore.)
For, largely completely different reasons, most liberal arts graduates probably can't either.
Of course, some can (I think I'm a pretty decent programmer, and my degree is a BA in Political Science. Then again, I was a programming long before I got that degree -- I might have even been a 10-year-old web programmer, if not necessarily an ace one, if the web existed when I was 10.)
They can and do. By the droves. Great engineers come not only from liberal arts but from a variety of disciplines. The best engineers I've worked with did not have CS or CE degrees and neither do I. Some of them had nothing but a high school diploma or GED. Formal training is certainly not needed, and in many cases, it's a hamper. Also, the money wasted on such is much better spent elsewhere, especially considering the curriculum and many colleges/universities, one that is hardly up to date and does not prepare students for real world development.
I think I'm a pretty decent programmer, and my degree is a BA in Political Science. Then again, I was a programming long before I got that degree
I have a BA in English, but I've been programming since I was 7, starting with BASIC, then on my TI-82 in junior high, C in high school, Perl, PHP and Javascript in college. I work full time as a software engineer now, and I make a good living doing it.
"Last March, he enrolled in App Academy, a 12-week web development program with locations in San Francisco and New York, and found a job coding within three weeks of interviewing. In his new position as a web application engineer at Yola, a San Francisco-based website building company, Morrison says he earns considerably more than what he had made doing administrative work."
Same thing was happening before the crash of 2000, people would take a month long course and then get jobs based on that course. I ask everyone what is driving up the valuations, and to look critically into the future. As soon as the companies that have the large valuations (Twitter,Facebook,etc.) start to post negative growth you will see an exodus.
I did this. My undergraduate degrees are in the humanities. I started programming in my late twenties. I also have kids. For anyone in the same spot -- it's not impossible, you'll just have to consistently put in hours to learn, and be open to criticism when you make the inevitable mistakes. That's probably true for most career paths.
A more accurate title would be "Studied Humanities, Will Code". I have a liberal arts degree from Middlebury College where I studied Computer Science, so it shouldn't be too surprising that I will code (and do code full-time professionally).
OT, but 7 weeks at the Middlebury Summer Languages program let me go from zero French to placing into third year French when I returned to my... um, "full-time" college the following fall. (After fighting them because they initially insisted I couldn't have progressed beyond a second year placement.)
Abilities and performance varied significantly, but the program let you make rapid progress if you were of a mind to.
If I may ask (in part because I consider returning to that area of Vermont), how did you find the Computer Sciences program?
> College or university curriculum aimed at imparting general knowledge and developing general intellectual capacities, in contrast to a professional, vocational, or technical curriculum. ... In modern colleges and universities, the liberal arts include the study of literature, languages, philosophy, history, mathematics, and science.
Computer science (as distinct from "programming" or "software engineering") is a liberal art! As are pure mathematics, and natural sciences like physics, chemistry, or biology.
This is true, and as a potential undergrad my leaning was to an "engineering" school, but all three of my daughters ended up at "Small Liberal Arts Colleges", one with a Physics degree, one with a Biology degree, and the third will probably end up with a creative writing/economics degree. So two of them at least, very much 'hard' science and all very employable.
To the article's point though, coding has become a much more important vocational skill than it was. I really do think there should be a fourth skill set in primary school education reading, writing, mathematics, and computer programming.
> Computer science (as distinct from "programming" or "software engineering") is a liberal art!
Arguably, but a BS in Computer Science isn't a Liberal Arts degree, its a science degree that is named that to distinguish it from a Liberal Arts degree (BA, the "Arts" refers to Liberal Arts.)
Of course, if you have a BA in Computer Science, that is a Liberal Arts degree.
Not 10 year old ace web programmers, but I have a friend who started coding PHP at age 10 and was doing serious freelance work (making as much as any other seasoned PHP dev) in high school.
Definitely not the same, but getting started at 10 and being proficient at 14 isn't unheard of.
Hum majors who take up coding are more than welcome to try,but they should be warned: programming is hard. It's easier than multivariable calculus, but there there ARE right and wrong answers, and you WILL come a point when you'll hit a wall and be frustrated, and you need to have the perseverance to get through those points. If this is to be your career you need to commit to a virtual lifetime of learning and growing.
Also, start with Python. I know some of you think it's neat to jump right in with JavaScript and make cool animations and dynamic web pages, but -- I'm from the future. You should start with Python.
I've never found these "brain plasticity" arguments very compelling. I had no motivation or context for learning when I was young (0-20) and while I might have done well in school tests and read a lot of books, I don't think I really absorbed anything in any depth, or thought in any particularly interesting or challenging ways - I certainly never achieved anything which would have required so much willpower and focus as learning to program modern computers.
And now that I am older (mid-20s) and my brain is supposedly less plastic, but I have motivation, context and determination in abundance, I feel like I am really learning and developing for the first time in my life.
I find the alternate methods people use to become programmers fascinating (alternate as in "didn't graduate with a CS degree from a 4 year school when 21). I did something different than this article suggested-I used the Post 9/11 GI Bill to take almost every single CS course at my local community college.
I wrote a short essay on my experience with transitioning from the humanities to web design and development. In short, I think it can be done... and that there are even certain advantages and unique skills that a liberal arts degree provides... but ultimately it comes down to some innate skills combined with lots of hard work. Here is my full essay for anyone interested: https://medium.com/this-happened-to-me/d609c1770dd4
Went with a BA in politics since young arrogant me got tired of the CS curriculum (why do I need to learn java? I can already make anything in PHP!) and politics was more interesting (and better demographics honestly).
So I've brushed up on my CS via online courses and enjoy a more educated/enlightened apathy toward modern politics.
You wouldn't really agree with what? That her English degree helps her communicate better, or that English degrees in general help people communicate better?
Oh, wait. You don't have an English degree, do you?
As an additional data point, I was into systems/programming as a kid and so when I went to college I studied English hoping it would make me a more rounded person.
The problem with this title is that in the reference, "Have Spacesuit, Will Travel", the character actually has something that's relevant to his travels.
> The problem with this title is that in the reference, "Have Spacesuit, Will Travel", the character actually has something that's relevant to his travels.
Surely the reference is to the saying "Have Gun, Will Travel" (to which "Have Spacesuit, Will Travel" was also a reference) which was popularly used to mean "I am prepared for anything", which is exactly the theoretical point behind a liberal arts degree (though not specifically a degree with a major in the humanities, though the latter are generally also the former, and the article seems to use them interchangeably; "liberal arts" is orthogonal to the major field of study.)
I'm interested to see, as better systems for teaching coding develop, popularity and awareness of its accessibility builds, it begins to go mainstream, and the marketplace becomes more competitive and wages decline, is, will the oldguard agitate for economic protection?
Edit: From the sounds of things, it's going to be very interesting:
Dan Melton, deputy chief technology officer at Granicus, a San Francisco-based startup that puts government data in the cloud, has hired two students with humanities backgrounds from App Academy. He said he looks for those students because they’re able to work better with other programmers and clients and understand the larger meaning of the work.
"We already have a lot of software whiz kids," Melton said. "We like to hire people who are interested in public affairs and civic engagement."
Sounds like it's going to be quite the culture change.
[+] [-] dragonwriter|12 years ago|reply
Most 10-year-olds can't become ace web programmers (well, given an infinite time horizon, maybe they can, but then they aren't 10-year-olds anymore.)
For, largely completely different reasons, most liberal arts graduates probably can't either.
Of course, some can (I think I'm a pretty decent programmer, and my degree is a BA in Political Science. Then again, I was a programming long before I got that degree -- I might have even been a 10-year-old web programmer, if not necessarily an ace one, if the web existed when I was 10.)
[+] [-] joesmo|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] byoung2|12 years ago|reply
I have a BA in English, but I've been programming since I was 7, starting with BASIC, then on my TI-82 in junior high, C in high school, Perl, PHP and Javascript in college. I work full time as a software engineer now, and I make a good living doing it.
[+] [-] HamSession|12 years ago|reply
"Last March, he enrolled in App Academy, a 12-week web development program with locations in San Francisco and New York, and found a job coding within three weeks of interviewing. In his new position as a web application engineer at Yola, a San Francisco-based website building company, Morrison says he earns considerably more than what he had made doing administrative work."
Same thing was happening before the crash of 2000, people would take a month long course and then get jobs based on that course. I ask everyone what is driving up the valuations, and to look critically into the future. As soon as the companies that have the large valuations (Twitter,Facebook,etc.) start to post negative growth you will see an exodus.
[+] [-] robgering|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bsirkia|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] laxatives|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pasbesoin|12 years ago|reply
Abilities and performance varied significantly, but the program let you make rapid progress if you were of a mind to.
If I may ask (in part because I consider returning to that area of Vermont), how did you find the Computer Sciences program?
[+] [-] ForHackernews|12 years ago|reply
> College or university curriculum aimed at imparting general knowledge and developing general intellectual capacities, in contrast to a professional, vocational, or technical curriculum. ... In modern colleges and universities, the liberal arts include the study of literature, languages, philosophy, history, mathematics, and science.
Computer science (as distinct from "programming" or "software engineering") is a liberal art! As are pure mathematics, and natural sciences like physics, chemistry, or biology.
[+] [-] ChuckMcM|12 years ago|reply
To the article's point though, coding has become a much more important vocational skill than it was. I really do think there should be a fourth skill set in primary school education reading, writing, mathematics, and computer programming.
[+] [-] dragonwriter|12 years ago|reply
Arguably, but a BS in Computer Science isn't a Liberal Arts degree, its a science degree that is named that to distinguish it from a Liberal Arts degree (BA, the "Arts" refers to Liberal Arts.)
Of course, if you have a BA in Computer Science, that is a Liberal Arts degree.
[+] [-] Wohui|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Forplax|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gamegoblin|12 years ago|reply
Definitely not the same, but getting started at 10 and being proficient at 14 isn't unheard of.
[+] [-] ddoolin|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bitwize|12 years ago|reply
Also, start with Python. I know some of you think it's neat to jump right in with JavaScript and make cool animations and dynamic web pages, but -- I'm from the future. You should start with Python.
[+] [-] tekalon|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] quomopete|12 years ago|reply
Brain plasticity. Next.
[+] [-] nirnira|12 years ago|reply
And now that I am older (mid-20s) and my brain is supposedly less plastic, but I have motivation, context and determination in abundance, I feel like I am really learning and developing for the first time in my life.
[+] [-] ZanyProgrammer|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mikepilla|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ben_mcmahen|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] siliconc0w|12 years ago|reply
So I've brushed up on my CS via online courses and enjoy a more educated/enlightened apathy toward modern politics.
[+] [-] georgiecasey|12 years ago|reply
I wouldn't really agree with that, but whatever you need to justify your student debts.
[+] [-] enraged_camel|12 years ago|reply
Oh, wait. You don't have an English degree, do you?
[+] [-] stephenaturner|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jaryd|12 years ago|reply
I currently do sysops professionally.
[+] [-] stackcollision|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dragonwriter|12 years ago|reply
Surely the reference is to the saying "Have Gun, Will Travel" (to which "Have Spacesuit, Will Travel" was also a reference) which was popularly used to mean "I am prepared for anything", which is exactly the theoretical point behind a liberal arts degree (though not specifically a degree with a major in the humanities, though the latter are generally also the former, and the article seems to use them interchangeably; "liberal arts" is orthogonal to the major field of study.)
[+] [-] oftenwrong|12 years ago|reply
http://www.word-detective.com/2013/07/have-gun-will-travel/
[+] [-] gruseom|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mathattack|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nirnira|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nirnira|12 years ago|reply
Edit: From the sounds of things, it's going to be very interesting:
Dan Melton, deputy chief technology officer at Granicus, a San Francisco-based startup that puts government data in the cloud, has hired two students with humanities backgrounds from App Academy. He said he looks for those students because they’re able to work better with other programmers and clients and understand the larger meaning of the work.
"We already have a lot of software whiz kids," Melton said. "We like to hire people who are interested in public affairs and civic engagement."
Sounds like it's going to be quite the culture change.