From the article: "I was able to significantly affect my microbiome with an FMT"
A huge pet peeve of mine is people claiming "significance" when they have no such thing. You have two data points and no controls. Even a simple control like another data point to see natural variation in your microbiome without an FMT is not present. Or sequencing a gut sample from your friend to show your sample moved in line with his (although in this case, since you moved toward the mean of the population, reversion to the mean is just as likely an explanation)
Catching up on the microbiome literature (I actually used to work on microbial communities, doing 16s rRNA sequencing on anaerobic digesters), it confirms my suspicion that your "significant" changes could easily be within the variation you would see naturally without an FMT.
THIS. One hundred times this. For these results to be in any way meaningful you need to conduct the experiment three times (and, three times with one person isn't actually enough to actually pull statistically meanigful results from, but one step at a time).
1) At t=0
2) At t=x [no transplant]
3) At t=x2 [after transplant]
The thing you actually need to compare is the variation between the difference of 1 and 2 and 1 and 3. The variation between 1 and 2 measures the general variation in your gut biome. So now you have a baseline of what to expect under "normal" variation. So, how does this compare to what you see after the transplant?
Beyond this, how do you control for literally everything in your life around both samples? Maybe you were sick? Maybe you'd been to the gym? Maybe you ate a banana? How do these things affect the microbiome? Without this kind of information its very difficult to draw any kinds of conclusions regarding the impact of a transplant.
As an analogy - lets say I don't know anything about night and day.
I look at my window at some time (say in the morning). It's light. I then write the sentence "LET THERE MY NIGHT" on my wall in marker pen at around 8pm and look at my window. Behold - it's night! So, from this I might conclude writing on my wall brought about the night.
ALL that being said, being curious and engaged in this type of thing is only good. The important thing to bear in mind is that without some thought to experimental design the conclusions drawn cannot really be described as conclusions. This is a great first post, but the determination of natural variation in the gut mirobiome is needed before the impact of the transplant can even be considered.
I felt this way as well, though it'd be interesting to figure out the information that went into the "normal" range for bacteriodete/firmicute proportions to see how what kind of stability comes from that range is as well.
OP: Thanks, removed the word "significant". I can't make any claims about the results yet. The donor sample is coming in soon so I will be able to make that comparison.
This is probably an unpopular opinion but it seems to me that "SV culture" has taken to fetishizing "health hacking" with little to no medical training/background or support. See the recent SV craze with "health informatics hacking". They're putting a shiny, appealing veneer over what amounts to homeopathy and random self-experimentation.
Someone is going to say, "but they have all this data, like this guy from µBiome" -- he's not a doctor, he's not a trained scientist, he's a dude who is shoving fecal extracts from his friend up his bum and hoping the results are positive.
"he's not a doctor, he's not a trained scientist, he's a dude who is shoving fecal extracts from his friend up his bum and hoping the results are positive."
Arguably, this is the oldest and most fundamental version of science.
You don't need to go to school for ten years to great your Magical Science Certificate in order to practice Science--you just have to be able to ask questions and try out random shit and share your results.
It's haphazard, but at least people here are trying, right? And if they're unfettered by the academic-industrial complex, so much the better.
>They're putting a shiny, appealing veneer over what amounts to homeopathy
How is self experimentation equivalent to homeopathy? I don't get how giving a shit about your own health is equated so quickly with a specific nonsensical, pseudoscientific sham.
I really expected you to say that they were "polishing a turd"! [1] On the flip side, you have to admire people who are becoming actively involved in their health AND learning more about the basic functions of human anatomy. A long time ago, it was illegal to dissect cadavers and medical knowledge required committing a crime. Isn't it better for smart people (who in theory understand the risks) to be allowed to conduct even uncontrolled experiments?
OP here: It's true I'm not a doctor or scientist. This isn't a rigorously designed experiment. Yes, I am hoping that the results are positive, but I don't have unrealistic expectations. Mostly I'm just interested in seeing what I can learn about myself.
Also not much "shoving" was involved. I'll do another post later that describes the process. It's pretty gross, but mostly due to the preparation. (I had to put shit in a blender and press the button) The actual administration is about as gross as using a suppository.
Even assuming you START with random experimentation, you will end up with non-random feedback. And assuming even cursory logical competence, the results of experiments will be useful. Even doctors get better over time with experience and practice.
Pledge $5 or more:
FMT Hall of Fame Receive a used wipe, suitable for bragging or framing (plus S&H).
Pledge $100 or more:
[EARLY BIRD] DIY kit: You'll get everything needed for a basic FMT, PLUS a single type 1 Bristol stool from one of our lead engineers.(plus S&H)
Pledge $500 or more:
FMT Classroom Educational Package
Join us for a PRIVATE squatting ceremony at a local nature reserve. You'll receive a fresh, hand wrapped type 3 or 4 Bristol stool from one of our members, plus a DIY implantation kit and hands on training.
Pledge $5000 or more:
FMT Founders Club
We'll fly you out to receive an entire Type 4 Bristol stool (smooth log) in person, along with a basic FMT course and PRIVATE implantation procedure. PLUS, we'll offer you the chance to donate your own stool samples to the FMT Master Catalog, for others to choose from. This is a two day event. (US & CAD only)
While I'm a huge proponent of patient autonomy and knowledge, it's really, really, really a bad idea to perform fecal microbiota transplantations at home, without medical equipment or training, and with an unvetted donor. I do hope that FMTs become an accepted part of medical practice -- the clinical results are more than encouraging -- but this kind of experimentation could go bad pretty fast.
I agree, and I don't intend to encourage people to be casual about the risks involved. But I'm also concerned about the possibility that this incredible tool will become inaccessible.
The difference is well within the variation you'd expect from multiple samples, extraction, PCR, sequencing, day-to-day.
Also, you're probably better off trying to alter your gut microbiome through ingestion of probiotics.
Source: I am a PhD student research the human gut microbiome in connection with autoimmunity and have processed thousands of these samples using the exact same methodology as uBiome.
I'm curious: I've always suspected 'probiotics' are ineffective, like scattering a few daffodil seeds into a field of weeds. Either not a significant quantity to compete, or just 'food for bugs' which feeds everything indiscriminately.
Methodologies aside, people really do have to take the majority of their personal health into their own hands. Most folks only see a doctor for a few hours in an entire year (much of that just sitting in reception) and rely on OTC self-medication for most minor issues.
There's a lot of criticism around people that self-experiment or self-diagnose, and it is indeed a potentially very dangerous practice, but the expense and fallibility of doctors can sometimes leave little alternative.
One example of this is Nicholas C. Zakas's recent account[1] of his discovery that he is afflicted by Lyme disease, has had it for the last 15 years, and was frequently misdiagnosed with everything from depression to having an eating disorder.
The point is, regardless of education, nobody cares as much about your health as you do. Doctors deal with hundreds of patients, you get to focus on just one.
I'm no expert, but given the magnitude of the author's deviation from "average", I would have wanted to get several results over time to see typical variance before doing an FMT and trying to reason about the difference.
I'm concerned with the average as a concept. Is the average calculated from every user of uBiome? Does that make any sense? Surely there are significant changes between the sexes? What about race, social group, location, etc?
This is pretty fascinating, but I'm not looking forward to the conversation I'm eventually going to have to have with one of my fit friends about putting some of his poop in my butt so I can lose weight.
The biggest medical risk of the procedure involves contracting an illness from your donor, so it is paramount that you properly screen your donor with appropriate tests. (I really, really hope OP did this; otherwise he might have put himself in substantial risk.)
Also note that the effectiveness of FMT for autoimmune disorders has so far been anecdotal and not nearly as robust as for C. difficile infection and, to a lesser extent, IBD/Crohn's disease. Be very aware of the risks and the conjectural/unclear nature of the claimed benefits. As of now clinics in the US only administer the procedure except for C. difficile infection, which is why some patients have resorted to at-home DIY transplantation. Please see the links above for specific guidelines on how to follow the procedure safely, should you decide to proceed.
Also as other posters have repeatedly pointed, the microbiome changes you report are well within variation/assay error and perhaps not as informative as you might expect.
I've worked on some metagenomics projects in the past, I admit I don't know too much about uBiome, but what I do know is that it is really hard to figure out what bacteria, archaea and fungi are in a given stomach.
consider that you can only cultivate a very small % of bacteria and archaea which means you can only find the genome of a given species that is living in a natural environment (often a very extreme environment). to figure out the genome, you have to sequence them all at the same time, but you can only read 1k-2k base pairs at one time, which means you need to bin these sequences into what you (educatedly) guess is the right organism and then sequence the genome. overtime, our understanding of these genomes should increase but I wonder what the current provable accuracy is using uBiome.
16S reads should be fine for basic characterization. The bioinformatics tools for sequence classification of short reads from a full sequencing run have also improved dramatically recently. Especially in terms of speed (100-1000X improvements).
(Plug) I just launched a site last week that demos this and links to a few other academic works in the field (check the FAQ): https://helix.io
"Health hacking" is really more about the act of tracking. Most people I know involved in quantified self see benefits in being observant of their daily routines, food, exercise, etc. Drawing causations from the data is generally not possible, but learning more about yourself with tools like uBiome and WellnessFX can lead to better decision making on a daily basis. It can also help you learn how to ask the right questions from a doctor.
Big question for you.... did you do anything prior to FMT to alter your flora?
I work with a major researcher in FMT and actually act as a donor so I know a little about this. Patients receiving FMT typically receive a short course of vancomycin to rid the gut of bacteria (or as much as possible). It's like starting with a clean slate. Your gut is then more readily able to accept the donation. Without the vanco (or other abx) you are basically just throwing shit at more shit and hoping it sticks.
I think your results would really change if you had done this through a doctor and had a bit of abx prior to FMT (or even just an enema).
So basically he took another persons feces and put it in himself. Cause he had read about it in a completely different context. and it had almost no effect.
OP: Sorry all. I had hoped to raise awareness and encourage discussion, but I think there's a bigger danger that the way I presented this "experiment" will do more harm than good for the perception of FMT and at home microbiome exploration. I will consider revisiting once I've got my ducks in a row.
After receiving several emails protesting the removal of the article, I reposted it after editing out the parts that attempted to draw conclusions. There's also a disclaimer at the top that warns about the danger of FMT.
[+] [-] cowsandmilk|12 years ago|reply
A huge pet peeve of mine is people claiming "significance" when they have no such thing. You have two data points and no controls. Even a simple control like another data point to see natural variation in your microbiome without an FMT is not present. Or sequencing a gut sample from your friend to show your sample moved in line with his (although in this case, since you moved toward the mean of the population, reversion to the mean is just as likely an explanation)
Catching up on the microbiome literature (I actually used to work on microbial communities, doing 16s rRNA sequencing on anaerobic digesters), it confirms my suspicion that your "significant" changes could easily be within the variation you would see naturally without an FMT.
[+] [-] alexholehouse|12 years ago|reply
1) At t=0 2) At t=x [no transplant] 3) At t=x2 [after transplant]
The thing you actually need to compare is the variation between the difference of 1 and 2 and 1 and 3. The variation between 1 and 2 measures the general variation in your gut biome. So now you have a baseline of what to expect under "normal" variation. So, how does this compare to what you see after the transplant?
Beyond this, how do you control for literally everything in your life around both samples? Maybe you were sick? Maybe you'd been to the gym? Maybe you ate a banana? How do these things affect the microbiome? Without this kind of information its very difficult to draw any kinds of conclusions regarding the impact of a transplant.
As an analogy - lets say I don't know anything about night and day.
I look at my window at some time (say in the morning). It's light. I then write the sentence "LET THERE MY NIGHT" on my wall in marker pen at around 8pm and look at my window. Behold - it's night! So, from this I might conclude writing on my wall brought about the night.
ALL that being said, being curious and engaged in this type of thing is only good. The important thing to bear in mind is that without some thought to experimental design the conclusions drawn cannot really be described as conclusions. This is a great first post, but the determination of natural variation in the gut mirobiome is needed before the impact of the transplant can even be considered.
[+] [-] tel|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] colevscode|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] aroch|12 years ago|reply
Someone is going to say, "but they have all this data, like this guy from µBiome" -- he's not a doctor, he's not a trained scientist, he's a dude who is shoving fecal extracts from his friend up his bum and hoping the results are positive.
[+] [-] angersock|12 years ago|reply
Arguably, this is the oldest and most fundamental version of science.
You don't need to go to school for ten years to great your Magical Science Certificate in order to practice Science--you just have to be able to ask questions and try out random shit and share your results.
It's haphazard, but at least people here are trying, right? And if they're unfettered by the academic-industrial complex, so much the better.
[+] [-] jere|12 years ago|reply
How is self experimentation equivalent to homeopathy? I don't get how giving a shit about your own health is equated so quickly with a specific nonsensical, pseudoscientific sham.
[+] [-] smoyer|12 years ago|reply
[1] http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Polishing%20a...
[+] [-] colevscode|12 years ago|reply
Also not much "shoving" was involved. I'll do another post later that describes the process. It's pretty gross, but mostly due to the preparation. (I had to put shit in a blender and press the button) The actual administration is about as gross as using a suppository.
[+] [-] ajcarpy2005|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] colevscode|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] phy6|12 years ago|reply
Pledge $5 or more: FMT Hall of Fame Receive a used wipe, suitable for bragging or framing (plus S&H).
Pledge $100 or more: [EARLY BIRD] DIY kit: You'll get everything needed for a basic FMT, PLUS a single type 1 Bristol stool from one of our lead engineers.(plus S&H)
Pledge $500 or more: FMT Classroom Educational Package Join us for a PRIVATE squatting ceremony at a local nature reserve. You'll receive a fresh, hand wrapped type 3 or 4 Bristol stool from one of our members, plus a DIY implantation kit and hands on training.
Pledge $5000 or more: FMT Founders Club We'll fly you out to receive an entire Type 4 Bristol stool (smooth log) in person, along with a basic FMT course and PRIVATE implantation procedure. PLUS, we'll offer you the chance to donate your own stool samples to the FMT Master Catalog, for others to choose from. This is a two day event. (US & CAD only)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_Stool_Scale
[+] [-] MatthewWilkes|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] HillRat|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] colevscode|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rdmirza|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sciencerobot|12 years ago|reply
Also, you're probably better off trying to alter your gut microbiome through ingestion of probiotics.
Source: I am a PhD student research the human gut microbiome in connection with autoimmunity and have processed thousands of these samples using the exact same methodology as uBiome.
[+] [-] JoeAltmaier|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jp555|12 years ago|reply
Does "pro-biotic" refer only to beneficial prokaryotic organisms or are there known beneficial "pro-biotic" foreign eukaryotes?
[+] [-] sakai|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Zikes|12 years ago|reply
There's a lot of criticism around people that self-experiment or self-diagnose, and it is indeed a potentially very dangerous practice, but the expense and fallibility of doctors can sometimes leave little alternative.
One example of this is Nicholas C. Zakas's recent account[1] of his discovery that he is afflicted by Lyme disease, has had it for the last 15 years, and was frequently misdiagnosed with everything from depression to having an eating disorder.
The point is, regardless of education, nobody cares as much about your health as you do. Doctors deal with hundreds of patients, you get to focus on just one.
[1] http://www.nczonline.net/blog/2014/04/02/i-have-lyme-disease...
[+] [-] TallGuyShort|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lotsofcows|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jarin|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] TallGuyShort|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gone35|12 years ago|reply
http://thepowerofpoop.com/epatients/fecal-transplant-faqs/
http://thepowerofpoop.com/epatients/is-fecal-transplant-for-...
The biggest medical risk of the procedure involves contracting an illness from your donor, so it is paramount that you properly screen your donor with appropriate tests. (I really, really hope OP did this; otherwise he might have put himself in substantial risk.)
Also note that the effectiveness of FMT for autoimmune disorders has so far been anecdotal and not nearly as robust as for C. difficile infection and, to a lesser extent, IBD/Crohn's disease. Be very aware of the risks and the conjectural/unclear nature of the claimed benefits. As of now clinics in the US only administer the procedure except for C. difficile infection, which is why some patients have resorted to at-home DIY transplantation. Please see the links above for specific guidelines on how to follow the procedure safely, should you decide to proceed.
Also as other posters have repeatedly pointed, the microbiome changes you report are well within variation/assay error and perhaps not as informative as you might expect.
[+] [-] myblake|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dsugarman|12 years ago|reply
consider that you can only cultivate a very small % of bacteria and archaea which means you can only find the genome of a given species that is living in a natural environment (often a very extreme environment). to figure out the genome, you have to sequence them all at the same time, but you can only read 1k-2k base pairs at one time, which means you need to bin these sequences into what you (educatedly) guess is the right organism and then sequence the genome. overtime, our understanding of these genomes should increase but I wonder what the current provable accuracy is using uBiome.
[+] [-] sakai|12 years ago|reply
(Plug) I just launched a site last week that demos this and links to a few other academic works in the field (check the FAQ): https://helix.io
[+] [-] aroch|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] simple10|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] giarc|12 years ago|reply
I work with a major researcher in FMT and actually act as a donor so I know a little about this. Patients receiving FMT typically receive a short course of vancomycin to rid the gut of bacteria (or as much as possible). It's like starting with a clean slate. Your gut is then more readily able to accept the donation. Without the vanco (or other abx) you are basically just throwing shit at more shit and hoping it sticks.
I think your results would really change if you had done this through a doctor and had a bit of abx prior to FMT (or even just an enema).
[+] [-] goodmachine|12 years ago|reply
http://drbganimalpharm.blogspot.co.uk/
[+] [-] callesgg|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] scrumper|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bitJericho|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|12 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] colevscode|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] colevscode|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zmanian|12 years ago|reply