Look, we can get one thing clear here: "Communist China" is not some dark gulag where people are beaten while walking down the street for having vaguely pro-democracy thoughts or something.
Indeed, it's increasingly not accurate to call China a communist state any more. Communism is about collectivism, planned economic policies, and egalitarianism. China began abandoning these policies nearly immediately after the death of Chairman Mao in 1976. Granted, there are still warehouses full of grain and pork, and only the government can officially "own" land, but the reality at street level is that it's a pretty thriving capitalist state with 100 year leases on land, increasing dismantling of state-owned enterprises (SOEs), and a vibrant mercantilism I've not seen anywhere else in the world.
What China is, though, is an autocratic state with a single party central government that maintains tight control over the press. Look closer, however, and it exercises the tight control over a few key topics with which most Westerners are familiar (and porn - porn is bad). If you are a reporter, then these controls can be frustrating, if not downright aggravating, but otherwise, life here is pretty relaxed and open.
The reality on the street? The locals engage in vibrant discussions and arguments about Taiwan, Tibet, or whatever online on a daily basis. Sometimes they use encoded keywords to keep the noise level down, but they talk about it all the time. What the government really cares about is people organising - that is verboten. I've tried to avoid talking about all these "sensitive" subjects in my years here in China (largely because politics stresses me out), and I am constantly approached by locals who want talk about it and give me their opinions.
The Great Firewall isn't nearly as big of a deal as you'd think either. No Twitter? Facebook? Livejournal? Guess what? The locals weren't using it anyway (not in appreciable numbers). They were (are) using local Chinese equivalents, which are far better at catering to their needs and desires. I don't know a single foreigner who hasn't found a way around the firewall to use Twitter on a daily basis either.
So, to summarize: China is an autocratic state, it has some definite problems with various values and things that many Westerners take for granted as important, but to just sit on the sidelines saying "Boo, China" isn't going to change a thing. China will gradually change by engaging with them and by working to move forward with them. Indeed, by not coming here to visit and or spend a bit of time, you're denying yourself experiencing one of the more vibrant and fascinating places on earth.
No need to tell the head of Rio Tinto in China about dark gulags. He's been under arrest without charge for several weeks now for allegedly stealing "state secrets" that allowed Rio Tinto to negotiate good prices for iron ore from China's steel mills.
Yesterday the Chinese authorities said Rio's "spying" had cost the country $102 billion over 6 years. Only problem with that story is that Rio's total worldwide iron ore revenues for the last 6 years was $40.75 billion. More here: http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/The-real-...
So by all means do business in China - just don't be too successful. Because your competitive negotiation with a state run business might just turn into spying on "state secrets". The Chinese government has some growing up to do.
"No Twitter? Facebook? Livejournal? Guess what? The locals weren't using it anyway (not in appreciable numbers)"
appreciable numbers or not - how important are they in interaction with the outside world without mediation of the state. (eg: sichuan earthquake - twitter/youtube played an important role in revealing to the 'outside world' the live events rather than orchestrated statements that usually come from the govt. after a week.)
More about the dark gulag or not: It is well known how people in prisons make many of the items that land up on a 'westerner's desk' (eg: promotion items like key chains for coke) - and yes the prisoner is paid for what he works - an apple a week.
More examples to cite - the Iphone prototype kid who killed himself? Let's speculate this iphone prototype being developed in another country - say US or even India. That kid did no harakiri. I will rest the case for the conspiracy theorists.
Do you know of the efforts the govt. takes to "erase" the memories of the 1989. The only chinese youth that have 'heard' of this event are the ones that live abroad.
Here's what I would like to hear about - "real" entrepreneurs from China. real -> first generation with no connections to the military or the govt. Everyone we know and hear about are the from the govt. or sons of govt. officials (like the rich russians)
We have few Canadian Chinese here - why don't they speak?
"Indeed, by not coming here to visit and or spend a bit of time, you're denying yourself experiencing one of the more vibrant and fascinating places on earth." - Agree with you.
PS: for context - I am writing this from a chinese special area zone,not china. I am not a citizen.
" "Communist China" is not some dark gulag where people are beaten while walking down the street for having vaguely pro-democracy thoughts or something."
No it is just a dark gulag where people are arrested and then beaten for expressing or acting on vaguely pro-democracy thoughts.
People still disappear in China into "re education camps" and are never seen again and are beaten, tortured and killed. Other than that, sure, it is "just" "an autocratic state, it has some definite problems"
The govt is a repressive dictatorship with a horrific human rights record. The fact that outsiders can make money there, while they can't (today) in say, North Korea, doesn't change the essential nature of the beast. Dictatorships can be great places for non citizens who are treated well and can always leave if they want to. Except that the jews/communists/gypsies/homosexuals etc were killed in their millions, Nazi Germany was a great place to live and work in(See IBM and the Holocaust), as long as you didn't challenge the gang of thugs ruling the country.
YES. This needs to be said more and more; to many in the West believe in the stereotyped image of China in the media, which prevents making any useful criticism of the countries actual problems. People like you who say otherwise tend to get replies like the ones above me who assume that you've swallowed the state propoganda.
I should add that I have lived (and am writing this) in China. It's clear that many of the "OMG Communists!" posters have not been to he country.
Unemployment in urban areas is 4.3 percent, according to government data.
Credulously reporting unemployment statistics from the US government is naive. Credulously reporting unemployment statistics from a Communist dictatorship is journalistic malpractice.
They said that it was government data. For anyone who knows anything about China, that's a tip-off. Credulous reporting would leave that tidbit out and treat the statistic as fact.
Well it is probably correct. What they don't tell you here is that you technically need a permit to live in an urban city like Beijing. Indeed, you can't rise in any company without being a permanent resident of the city where it is based (or at least where your office is).
I've been working in Hong Kong for almost 6 months, and there definitely seems to be opportunity here. There is a lot more optimism than I've been seeing in the states when I go back, and software is perceived as an area in which the skill levels that you can find among the local Hong Kong population are lower than you would expect from westerners because there is such an emphasis on finance here.
Is Hong Kong still an appreciably freer market than mainland China? China has always seemed like it has problems with political corruption, to the point where having influence over the right people in the party/govt. is an essential business skill. How is Hong Kong on that?
“It’s China’s fault that I’m still here,” he said. “It’s just so cheap to start a business.”
This is just an anecdote, but it really caught my attention and made me think about what the future may hold. That's a Harvard graduate who left the US and ended up starting a business in China.
most of Internet start-up here in China are, rip-off of existing sites and translate of interface and function.
And any user generated content is strictly forbidden by the government because eventually UGC will involve politics topics.
And corruption, you have to go through months apply process of a video site 'license', or blog site 'license' or news site 'license', and they are managed by different bureaucratic departments of the central government.
And big companies like QQ.com is likely to copy your idea and deploy it on their own QQ.com infrasture and overtake your start-up by one day.
So overall it's very hard to do start-ups in China, unless you have a very strong social background.
[+] [-] chipmunkninja|16 years ago|reply
Indeed, it's increasingly not accurate to call China a communist state any more. Communism is about collectivism, planned economic policies, and egalitarianism. China began abandoning these policies nearly immediately after the death of Chairman Mao in 1976. Granted, there are still warehouses full of grain and pork, and only the government can officially "own" land, but the reality at street level is that it's a pretty thriving capitalist state with 100 year leases on land, increasing dismantling of state-owned enterprises (SOEs), and a vibrant mercantilism I've not seen anywhere else in the world.
What China is, though, is an autocratic state with a single party central government that maintains tight control over the press. Look closer, however, and it exercises the tight control over a few key topics with which most Westerners are familiar (and porn - porn is bad). If you are a reporter, then these controls can be frustrating, if not downright aggravating, but otherwise, life here is pretty relaxed and open.
The reality on the street? The locals engage in vibrant discussions and arguments about Taiwan, Tibet, or whatever online on a daily basis. Sometimes they use encoded keywords to keep the noise level down, but they talk about it all the time. What the government really cares about is people organising - that is verboten. I've tried to avoid talking about all these "sensitive" subjects in my years here in China (largely because politics stresses me out), and I am constantly approached by locals who want talk about it and give me their opinions.
The Great Firewall isn't nearly as big of a deal as you'd think either. No Twitter? Facebook? Livejournal? Guess what? The locals weren't using it anyway (not in appreciable numbers). They were (are) using local Chinese equivalents, which are far better at catering to their needs and desires. I don't know a single foreigner who hasn't found a way around the firewall to use Twitter on a daily basis either.
So, to summarize: China is an autocratic state, it has some definite problems with various values and things that many Westerners take for granted as important, but to just sit on the sidelines saying "Boo, China" isn't going to change a thing. China will gradually change by engaging with them and by working to move forward with them. Indeed, by not coming here to visit and or spend a bit of time, you're denying yourself experiencing one of the more vibrant and fascinating places on earth.
[+] [-] tjmc|16 years ago|reply
Yesterday the Chinese authorities said Rio's "spying" had cost the country $102 billion over 6 years. Only problem with that story is that Rio's total worldwide iron ore revenues for the last 6 years was $40.75 billion. More here: http://www.businessspectator.com.au/bs.nsf/Article/The-real-...
So by all means do business in China - just don't be too successful. Because your competitive negotiation with a state run business might just turn into spying on "state secrets". The Chinese government has some growing up to do.
[+] [-] justlearning|16 years ago|reply
"No Twitter? Facebook? Livejournal? Guess what? The locals weren't using it anyway (not in appreciable numbers)"
appreciable numbers or not - how important are they in interaction with the outside world without mediation of the state. (eg: sichuan earthquake - twitter/youtube played an important role in revealing to the 'outside world' the live events rather than orchestrated statements that usually come from the govt. after a week.)
More about the dark gulag or not: It is well known how people in prisons make many of the items that land up on a 'westerner's desk' (eg: promotion items like key chains for coke) - and yes the prisoner is paid for what he works - an apple a week. More examples to cite - the Iphone prototype kid who killed himself? Let's speculate this iphone prototype being developed in another country - say US or even India. That kid did no harakiri. I will rest the case for the conspiracy theorists.
Do you know of the efforts the govt. takes to "erase" the memories of the 1989. The only chinese youth that have 'heard' of this event are the ones that live abroad.
Here's what I would like to hear about - "real" entrepreneurs from China. real -> first generation with no connections to the military or the govt. Everyone we know and hear about are the from the govt. or sons of govt. officials (like the rich russians)
We have few Canadian Chinese here - why don't they speak?
"Indeed, by not coming here to visit and or spend a bit of time, you're denying yourself experiencing one of the more vibrant and fascinating places on earth." - Agree with you.
PS: for context - I am writing this from a chinese special area zone,not china. I am not a citizen.
[+] [-] plinkplonk|16 years ago|reply
No it is just a dark gulag where people are arrested and then beaten for expressing or acting on vaguely pro-democracy thoughts.
People still disappear in China into "re education camps" and are never seen again and are beaten, tortured and killed. Other than that, sure, it is "just" "an autocratic state, it has some definite problems"
The govt is a repressive dictatorship with a horrific human rights record. The fact that outsiders can make money there, while they can't (today) in say, North Korea, doesn't change the essential nature of the beast. Dictatorships can be great places for non citizens who are treated well and can always leave if they want to. Except that the jews/communists/gypsies/homosexuals etc were killed in their millions, Nazi Germany was a great place to live and work in(See IBM and the Holocaust), as long as you didn't challenge the gang of thugs ruling the country.
[+] [-] wyw|16 years ago|reply
Correct. They're usually dragged into an alleyway first.
[+] [-] IsaacL|16 years ago|reply
I should add that I have lived (and am writing this) in China. It's clear that many of the "OMG Communists!" posters have not been to he country.
[+] [-] patio11|16 years ago|reply
Credulously reporting unemployment statistics from the US government is naive. Credulously reporting unemployment statistics from a Communist dictatorship is journalistic malpractice.
[+] [-] whughes|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] baguasquirrel|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bwd2|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] philwelch|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rationalbeaver|16 years ago|reply
This is just an anecdote, but it really caught my attention and made me think about what the future may hold. That's a Harvard graduate who left the US and ended up starting a business in China.
[+] [-] marcusbooster|16 years ago|reply
I would think doing a web based company would be limiting if you have to deal with the government's internet policies.
[+] [-] est|16 years ago|reply
And any user generated content is strictly forbidden by the government because eventually UGC will involve politics topics.
And corruption, you have to go through months apply process of a video site 'license', or blog site 'license' or news site 'license', and they are managed by different bureaucratic departments of the central government.
And big companies like QQ.com is likely to copy your idea and deploy it on their own QQ.com infrasture and overtake your start-up by one day.
So overall it's very hard to do start-ups in China, unless you have a very strong social background.
[+] [-] AndrewWarner|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mjfern|16 years ago|reply