Start ups used to be for scrappy guys, the people who dropped out or had a winding career path.
Now its become a popular option its turned into selection system like a Goldman sachs graduate recruitment program. Precisely because its those type of people running these things.
Fundamentally i'm not sure they have the same character as the previous entrepreneurs. Those guys specifically chose to take the risky untrodden path. That said something about their personality. That could be the piece that makes a successful entrepreneur.
Its not like that anymore, so the people choosing to do it are a different breed. They are more like people who go to work for investment banks now.
Salesforce was started by an ex-Oracle executive, Jeff Bezos worked at an investment bank looking at internet businesses, Peter Thiel also had a successful investment banking career prior to Paypal.
(for that matter Jimmy Wales of Wikipedia, Joshua Schacter of Delicious and Sal Khan of Khan academy are all ex-investment banking as well)
The scrappy drop-out risking all to start a startup narrative is cute, but only represents a small fraction of successful startups. Many startup founders had significant financial success before founding their startups.
At least we have one thing going for us. If you fail a Goldman Sachs interview, you don't get to work at Goldman Sachs. If YC or some other accelerator rejects you, you can still go and start your startup and succeed anyway. In fact YC specifically says that if you make acceptance a deciding factor in deciding whether to do a startup, you'll probably fail.
In the end, startups only succeed only if enough people like their product enough to pay for it. So what if there are now accelerators targeting "non-scrappy" guys?
Startup founding is not really an innate skill, it's about getting better at the plethora of different skills you need to found and lead a company.
What really makes a good startup founder is a prior startup founder. Ergo the more you pump into the system, the better the founders you eventually precipitate will be.
All founders are muppets at the start. The key to becoming good is doing it and then doing it again.
Why do young founders participate in these accelerators? Aside from the (arguably small) amount of money, I think that participation gives them the feeling of "permission" to actually create the business they want.
I wonder how many realize that they could build the same business just as well on their own (assuming proper willpower, and all.)
A CS student graduating from Cambridge usually has numerous job offers for GBP 45k+ or USD 100k+, promising a safe, stable lifestyle. Going down the startup route with no team, no idea, and funding of only 10-20k to live and develop a business in London for an entire year is still massively risky.
Programs like EF are simply helping manage that risk, and increase the chances of success by providing the right mentorship, peers and support environment.
And of course, appetite for risk is not the only great quality in startup founders, so if you give the intelligent, capable people with smaller risk appetites who would have normally chosen the safer route, the opportunity to work on their own company, it isn't unfeasible to imagine they might succeed.
This. Right here. This. The worst part about it is that even organizations started by the "scrappy" guys are only running after the "ib" types. And the transition seemed very quick.
This article made me wretch because the last thing I want to see is a bunch of silver spoon idiots calling themselves entrepreneurs. I was in a fraternity, which has a high chance of attracting entitled heirs, and it was the dumbest choice I'd ever made. Very very few of them had a shred of originality, ingenuity, or fire...and lacking these traits kept them out of entrepreneurship.
But now...there's an organization that would look at these type of people (high grades, family connections that would count even though no one will admit it, pizaz appearance, etc) and fund them. Yeah this is no challenge to YC. I don't agree with all of their selection processes but at least they look for traction and authenticity.
Firstly, there's supposed to be a democratization of entrepreneurship with individuals becoming more capable (due to tech) and not needing the resources of a large company.
Secondly, there may be a systemization of entrepreneurship, as we get better at it. Analogy: in the early days of manufacturing, defects rates were high and apparently random. But over time, observation and experiment, the causes were understood and controlled, resulting in extremely low defect rates (as low as you're willing to pay for, I believe). Can the same apply to startups? Of course not! But we certainly can get better at it. "Lean", imperfect though it is, is an example of this. And every time someone writes (or reads) a "lessons learned", there's an implicit assumption that there is something to learn... that it's not totally random.
Just make the selection process really difficult. Those who want it will get it.
Everyone shits on bankers but the reason there's so many successful ex-bankers outside of banking is because they're goal oriented people who don't take no for an answer. Very similar to startup founders.
The types of risk are dramatically different in the old Silicon Valley vs. the new one.
In 1965-80, the "risk" was working for a low salary. But there really was a talent shortage relative to what society wanted to accomplish. If your startup failed, you could resume a technical career and come out for the better because of what you'd learned.
Also, rents were low, so the only "poverty" you were worried about was having to delay your Europe vacation while working on the startup. Making rent wasn't a life-altering concern.
In 2014, the numeric financial risk is lower (most startups come close to market salary) but the career risks are huge. We have a talent surplus and a bad startup can damage your resume/reputation enough to put you out of the game.
This seems so… retarded. "YC 'zigs', so we're going to 'out-zig' them?" Seriously?
Someone should try 'zagging' and seek older people with this kind of enthusiasm to develop startups. With their real-world experience and domain knowledge, I bet the kinds of companies experienced people create would be a lot more interesting. And, in aggregate, more successful.
I know of at least a few companies that fall into this category. A few years old, products with serious traction, laser focused on one problem, engineering teams that all have 5+ years experience, and almost all working remotely (which is likely tied to the experience level). The concept of funding people instead of an idea is one I hope will grow.
I feel like there is undue offense being taken here
I'm not sure that older entrepreneurs are fertile ground for accelerators
not because older enterpreneurs are worse than young enterprenuers (the opposite is probably almost obviously true), but more because the types of funding that most accelerators are giving out can't really complete with what most 30+ year old can self fund
someone who's been making a programmer's salary for 10+ years, probably doesn't need the relative pittances that accelerators throw out,
they've also probably built a personal network such that what what accelerators provide isn't all that valuable
yeah, as some one "older"(mid-30s), married and with children, YC or HAXLR8R( I am interested in open hardware) are just not options financially partly because of where they are bay area cost of living seems like it is a massive tax on a startup. It would be definitely be interesting to see a wider range of ages and not having to move to the SF area. Kima15 is a little more interesting it would be neat to see if they have different demographics and if the outcomes are different.
I believe that the founders of EF have not set out with the idea of it being a ‘pre-accelerator,' leeching talent before YC or banks can get their hands on it. I do think they solving a genuine problem in the supporting startup ecosystem, particularly in the UK.
I spent a year at MIT and it was hard to avoid people that were working on cool ideas and starting up. Students chose most of their classes, and each class generally had a culture of creating something in a project. As a result, a lot of students would experience working on building something cool with a variety of people. That, combined with a very supportive environment, meant that it was much more accessible to startup if you wanted to.
In the UK (or at least Cambridge) there are fewer people considering creating a startup. The UK university system also places more focus on end-of-year exams rather than project work. It's harder to come across finding the right combination of people, ideas and motivations that is needed to create a startup. Most ‘entrepreneurial’ societies tend to be full of the bullshitty types and smartest people default to jobs in finance or consulting.
So it's partly bringing together smart people, partly the legitimacy of not feeling the need to go into a corporate job ourselves, that I think make ideas like EF broadly work. That being said, the model still has its problems. Forming teams with people you've no prior experience of only works in a handful of cases. Thankfully the programme is long enough to try several combinations of teams. Even so, I believe all the people that have gone through it but haven't ended up continuing with a company (like me) still value the contacts and learning experience thoroughly.
Disclaimer: I've just finished EF as part of their 2013 cohort.
Demonstrating an ability to do projects is one of the things MIT looks for in undergraduate applications. Almost certainly one of the things that put mine over the top.
And, yeah, doing projects, in class or outside, is a big part of what MIT is about.
So this looks like a bait for fresh graduates, because more seasoned professionals know that good jobs are hard to come by. I'm a software engineer, I live 50 miles north off London and I'm looking for a job there. My spam folder receives a daily dose of "LAMP developers needed", ".NET engineers", "Fontend jQuery wizzard" and other similar offers that I'm less than excited about, but jobs with leading technologies that I work with and want to continue working with (Scala, AngularJS, etc) are nowhere to be found. What does Enterpreneur First think they can fix here?
You are not alone, but there are two or three fixes I can think of
- Start up your own startup
- work for a startup (silicon roundabout does an email list)
I get the impression (and thats about all) that there are a lot of startups who would like experienced London developers to build them their MVP - price is probably the issue.
- Why just stick to London - everyone says Remote is possible :-)
Sorry not really answering the question - I just don't think the traditional apply for a job via a recruiter thing works anymore. I just am not sure what is replacing it.
Having experienced first-hand the hiring competition of Big Co's, I started recruiting second and third year Comp. Sci. students for internships. You have to invest a lot more time and effort in training and mentorship, but it pays to build a solid working relationship before they are recruited by the corporate competition (Amazon, Facebook). I have had some good results, but it is hard to scale. Other activities that make it easier to hire is to regularly speak about interesting topics at your local university and demo interesting projects. Deliver value, and others will follow.
This reminds me of nothing so much as the Harvard (any selective college, really) model of recruitment: try to admit a pool of people you think stand a good chance of huge success later. (The university model's step two is "when they get it, ask them for money and hope they remember you fondly", which seems to work OK but I imagine will be replaced with "when they're admitted, make them promise to give you money later" by these guys.)
Fundamentally, you have the options of selecting for demonstrated achievement and selecting for potential. You can assess potential much earlier, so it really is a good way to scoop other people looking for the same thing.
It's also less accurate. But there's got to be a business model in there somewhere.
His view is that there will be two accelerators left in the world – YC and the few that manage to survive on investing in startups created by the people who didn’t take it into YC.
It seems strange that he's focusing on YC if he's based in the UK? I'd imagine that YC has very limited reach in the UK. My understanding is that the startup ecosystem in the UK and Europe is still very underdeveloped (i.e. lots of opportunities for funds) so worrying about competition on a different continent seems unnecessary
It's funny that you're commenting on HN, which is just one of the tools YC uses to capture a global mindshare. Aspiring entrepreneurs around the world now know about YC's track record, so it is kind of hard to justify choosing say Techstars UK or Techpeaks if you also get admitted to YC. The startup ecosystem is indeed not as mature in UK/Europe as it in the Valley, but not for lack of informed, aspiring entrepreneurs, but lack of accelerators and funds that are as reputed as YC.
Jake Lodwick (Vimeo co-founder) was doing this with Elepath. I interviewed with them about 2 years ago and he was building the team before he had a product goal.
Honestly, with the amount of start-ups pivoting into new spaces when their original business plan isn't fully realized, this doesn't seem like a bad plan. Build a team that can execute on ideas -- that seems to be the hard part anyway.
I once read a post from a company's founder who is involved in the business of hiring fresh talents for tech companies.
Basically, what he does is whine and whine about the lack of talent because most fresh graduates want to build a start-up for themselves instead of joining a company.
He tries to convince fresh graduates that they are better of joining established companies because most startups fail anyway. It seems like people distort their values when it comes to self-interest.
I said he does so because he is once the founder of a startup himself. Why would he discourage others from doing the same.
YC isn't just about getting the best talent. Some YC founders are clearly very good, others are unimpressive. I've seen the whole spectrum.
YC could pick its crowd at random (not to imply that it does; it doesn't) and it would still work. A few bozos would get in and be likely to fail, but it wouldn't be remarkable considering the statistical noise already in the startup game.
Venture capital is a feudalistic reputation economy, and YC is a case of Paul Graham monetizing his reputation. Just being YC establishes that a startup has real potential and puts it ahead of the teeming masses. Paul Graham wouldn't have to do anything to make YC a winning trade for him and the startups.
Before anyone says I'm being unduly cynical, let me fill out a few of my points. First, Paul Graham earned much of that reputation. He's a good writer, he understands Lisp at a deep level, and his technical chops are strong even by engineer standards and put him ahead of 99% of financiers. Second, I'm sure that YC's picks are better than its rejects. Third, I'm sure he worked really hard on the YC program. My point is only that he doesn't have to. He could pick startups at random, do absolutely nothing, and it'd still work, financially speaking.
Can anyone replicate this? Probably not. Paul Graham deserves credit for carrying the banner. In 2002-4, the mainstream business world had written startups off and people believed there'd never be another 1990s-style tech boom (which was mostly froth, but had a lot of genuine substance). Paul Graham pointed people back to the truths that the dot-bomb-shocked business mainstream was prepared to discard, like (a) that technology really matters, (b) small businesses can be extremely efficient, and (c) smart people require a different management style that most corporations don't get. He deserves a lot of credit for keeping the banner in the air in the gloomy early and mid-2000s. That right move, on his part, is a major reason why he has a monetizeable reputation. Is that feat replicable? Probably not.
[+] [-] UK-AL|12 years ago|reply
Now its become a popular option its turned into selection system like a Goldman sachs graduate recruitment program. Precisely because its those type of people running these things.
Fundamentally i'm not sure they have the same character as the previous entrepreneurs. Those guys specifically chose to take the risky untrodden path. That said something about their personality. That could be the piece that makes a successful entrepreneur.
Its not like that anymore, so the people choosing to do it are a different breed. They are more like people who go to work for investment banks now.
[+] [-] ig1|12 years ago|reply
(for that matter Jimmy Wales of Wikipedia, Joshua Schacter of Delicious and Sal Khan of Khan academy are all ex-investment banking as well)
The scrappy drop-out risking all to start a startup narrative is cute, but only represents a small fraction of successful startups. Many startup founders had significant financial success before founding their startups.
[+] [-] zodiac|12 years ago|reply
In the end, startups only succeed only if enough people like their product enough to pay for it. So what if there are now accelerators targeting "non-scrappy" guys?
[+] [-] petenixey|12 years ago|reply
What really makes a good startup founder is a prior startup founder. Ergo the more you pump into the system, the better the founders you eventually precipitate will be.
All founders are muppets at the start. The key to becoming good is doing it and then doing it again.
[+] [-] lpsz|12 years ago|reply
I wonder how many realize that they could build the same business just as well on their own (assuming proper willpower, and all.)
[+] [-] neil_s|12 years ago|reply
Programs like EF are simply helping manage that risk, and increase the chances of success by providing the right mentorship, peers and support environment.
And of course, appetite for risk is not the only great quality in startup founders, so if you give the intelligent, capable people with smaller risk appetites who would have normally chosen the safer route, the opportunity to work on their own company, it isn't unfeasible to imagine they might succeed.
[+] [-] jcolemorr11|12 years ago|reply
This article made me wretch because the last thing I want to see is a bunch of silver spoon idiots calling themselves entrepreneurs. I was in a fraternity, which has a high chance of attracting entitled heirs, and it was the dumbest choice I'd ever made. Very very few of them had a shred of originality, ingenuity, or fire...and lacking these traits kept them out of entrepreneurship.
But now...there's an organization that would look at these type of people (high grades, family connections that would count even though no one will admit it, pizaz appearance, etc) and fund them. Yeah this is no challenge to YC. I don't agree with all of their selection processes but at least they look for traction and authenticity.
[+] [-] hyp0|12 years ago|reply
Firstly, there's supposed to be a democratization of entrepreneurship with individuals becoming more capable (due to tech) and not needing the resources of a large company.
Secondly, there may be a systemization of entrepreneurship, as we get better at it. Analogy: in the early days of manufacturing, defects rates were high and apparently random. But over time, observation and experiment, the causes were understood and controlled, resulting in extremely low defect rates (as low as you're willing to pay for, I believe). Can the same apply to startups? Of course not! But we certainly can get better at it. "Lean", imperfect though it is, is an example of this. And every time someone writes (or reads) a "lessons learned", there's an implicit assumption that there is something to learn... that it's not totally random.
[+] [-] unknown|12 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] jsun|12 years ago|reply
Everyone shits on bankers but the reason there's so many successful ex-bankers outside of banking is because they're goal oriented people who don't take no for an answer. Very similar to startup founders.
[+] [-] michaelochurch|12 years ago|reply
In 1965-80, the "risk" was working for a low salary. But there really was a talent shortage relative to what society wanted to accomplish. If your startup failed, you could resume a technical career and come out for the better because of what you'd learned.
Also, rents were low, so the only "poverty" you were worried about was having to delay your Europe vacation while working on the startup. Making rent wasn't a life-altering concern.
In 2014, the numeric financial risk is lower (most startups come close to market salary) but the career risks are huge. We have a talent surplus and a bad startup can damage your resume/reputation enough to put you out of the game.
[+] [-] roberthahn|12 years ago|reply
Someone should try 'zagging' and seek older people with this kind of enthusiasm to develop startups. With their real-world experience and domain knowledge, I bet the kinds of companies experienced people create would be a lot more interesting. And, in aggregate, more successful.
-old(er) and cranky entrepreneur.
[+] [-] fecak|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pitt1980|12 years ago|reply
I feel like there is undue offense being taken here
I'm not sure that older entrepreneurs are fertile ground for accelerators
not because older enterpreneurs are worse than young enterprenuers (the opposite is probably almost obviously true), but more because the types of funding that most accelerators are giving out can't really complete with what most 30+ year old can self fund
someone who's been making a programmer's salary for 10+ years, probably doesn't need the relative pittances that accelerators throw out,
they've also probably built a personal network such that what what accelerators provide isn't all that valuable
[+] [-] neuromancer2701|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jordn|12 years ago|reply
I spent a year at MIT and it was hard to avoid people that were working on cool ideas and starting up. Students chose most of their classes, and each class generally had a culture of creating something in a project. As a result, a lot of students would experience working on building something cool with a variety of people. That, combined with a very supportive environment, meant that it was much more accessible to startup if you wanted to.
In the UK (or at least Cambridge) there are fewer people considering creating a startup. The UK university system also places more focus on end-of-year exams rather than project work. It's harder to come across finding the right combination of people, ideas and motivations that is needed to create a startup. Most ‘entrepreneurial’ societies tend to be full of the bullshitty types and smartest people default to jobs in finance or consulting.
So it's partly bringing together smart people, partly the legitimacy of not feeling the need to go into a corporate job ourselves, that I think make ideas like EF broadly work. That being said, the model still has its problems. Forming teams with people you've no prior experience of only works in a handful of cases. Thankfully the programme is long enough to try several combinations of teams. Even so, I believe all the people that have gone through it but haven't ended up continuing with a company (like me) still value the contacts and learning experience thoroughly.
Disclaimer: I've just finished EF as part of their 2013 cohort.
[+] [-] hga|12 years ago|reply
And, yeah, doing projects, in class or outside, is a big part of what MIT is about.
[+] [-] neverminder|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lifeisstillgood|12 years ago|reply
- Start up your own startup
- work for a startup (silicon roundabout does an email list) I get the impression (and thats about all) that there are a lot of startups who would like experienced London developers to build them their MVP - price is probably the issue.
- Why just stick to London - everyone says Remote is possible :-)
Sorry not really answering the question - I just don't think the traditional apply for a job via a recruiter thing works anymore. I just am not sure what is replacing it.
[+] [-] pea|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] paolomaffei|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pgt|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] thaumasiotes|12 years ago|reply
Fundamentally, you have the options of selecting for demonstrated achievement and selecting for potential. You can assess potential much earlier, so it really is a good way to scoop other people looking for the same thing.
It's also less accurate. But there's got to be a business model in there somewhere.
[+] [-] malanj|12 years ago|reply
It seems strange that he's focusing on YC if he's based in the UK? I'd imagine that YC has very limited reach in the UK. My understanding is that the startup ecosystem in the UK and Europe is still very underdeveloped (i.e. lots of opportunities for funds) so worrying about competition on a different continent seems unnecessary
[+] [-] neil_s|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ccallebs|12 years ago|reply
Honestly, with the amount of start-ups pivoting into new spaces when their original business plan isn't fully realized, this doesn't seem like a bad plan. Build a team that can execute on ideas -- that seems to be the hard part anyway.
[+] [-] BrownBuffalo|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] teemo_cute|12 years ago|reply
Basically, what he does is whine and whine about the lack of talent because most fresh graduates want to build a start-up for themselves instead of joining a company.
He tries to convince fresh graduates that they are better of joining established companies because most startups fail anyway. It seems like people distort their values when it comes to self-interest.
I said he does so because he is once the founder of a startup himself. Why would he discourage others from doing the same.
[+] [-] michaelochurch|12 years ago|reply
YC could pick its crowd at random (not to imply that it does; it doesn't) and it would still work. A few bozos would get in and be likely to fail, but it wouldn't be remarkable considering the statistical noise already in the startup game.
Venture capital is a feudalistic reputation economy, and YC is a case of Paul Graham monetizing his reputation. Just being YC establishes that a startup has real potential and puts it ahead of the teeming masses. Paul Graham wouldn't have to do anything to make YC a winning trade for him and the startups.
Before anyone says I'm being unduly cynical, let me fill out a few of my points. First, Paul Graham earned much of that reputation. He's a good writer, he understands Lisp at a deep level, and his technical chops are strong even by engineer standards and put him ahead of 99% of financiers. Second, I'm sure that YC's picks are better than its rejects. Third, I'm sure he worked really hard on the YC program. My point is only that he doesn't have to. He could pick startups at random, do absolutely nothing, and it'd still work, financially speaking.
Can anyone replicate this? Probably not. Paul Graham deserves credit for carrying the banner. In 2002-4, the mainstream business world had written startups off and people believed there'd never be another 1990s-style tech boom (which was mostly froth, but had a lot of genuine substance). Paul Graham pointed people back to the truths that the dot-bomb-shocked business mainstream was prepared to discard, like (a) that technology really matters, (b) small businesses can be extremely efficient, and (c) smart people require a different management style that most corporations don't get. He deserves a lot of credit for keeping the banner in the air in the gloomy early and mid-2000s. That right move, on his part, is a major reason why he has a monetizeable reputation. Is that feat replicable? Probably not.