Awesome, though it might take a bit of air out of the tech-as-a-solution-to-jobs when one hears the qualifier "BTW, they're university-educated CS majors." (At a university with an absolutely terrible career services department, even by the low standards of career services departments.)
My head almost exploded from sloppy statistics reading the article.
> Six months after the first Access Code class of 21 students completed the 18 week course, the 15 graduates who accepted job offers have seen their income rise from under $15,000 to an average of $72,190; the other six students are either still in college or have chosen to launch their own startups
1: Those not getting a job were not included in the average. 2: The analysis is comparing student incomes with working incomes. I imagine every college and university could show amazing income growth using these measures.
The students in the last class were not CS majors and I doubt that is a requirement to participate in the future ones. The quote makes it sound like this, though.
I'm donating my 31st birthday to this great org. Donating $150 will get you a signed copy of Without Their Permission and I'll take the highest donor out to lunch in Queens.
"We saw lots of people in the City University of New York system who graduated as computer science majors but weren't going into the tech industry...It was a lot of access and network problems, and a lack of technical training."
This is really confusing. How do you graduate as a computer science major and lack technical training? And if that's the case, how does such a faculty remain in business?
I took an AI class and also a computer graphics class at a CUNY school in the fall of 2013.
Among CS-major seniors who are in the top half of the class, none that I talked to knew what software version control was, what git or Perforce or cvs etc. were.
The faculty is good. Almost all of them knew their stuff, and a few were very good at explaining things clearly.
The kids just didn't seem to have much interest in doing computer stuff outside of class. You'd think at least once in four years they'd browse Github bug reports, do a patch and send a pull request. They don't though. The ACM computer club on campus was always a little derelict and is now pretty much inactive.
A lot of kids have vague ideas about building video games, but then take a graphics course which uses matrix math to calculate transformations, formulas to calculate Phong shading and so forth. After doing that they lose interest.
They do get training - the theoretical stuff is taught beautifully. We also did a lot of Java and C++, as well as some Python, Common Lisp, Prolog etc. As well as learning about DBMSs and the various normal forms, or how the fetch/execute cycle works etc. and all of that.
I don't know how to explain the problem other than that students did the work for a grade and that was it. They had no interest in programming outside of class work. One reason I did extra work was just to feel I could apply things. I learned Java, and then fixed some open source Java bugs, and then wrote a 1000+ line program in order to get a grip on what I learned. Otherwise it would be free floating theory about inheritance, polymorphism, objects etc. The same with graphics - I did some OpenGL work to ground what I learned in class.
Some kids did not even really seem to care about learning what was needed for class or getting a decent grade. I don't know why they're even bothering. I can see slogging through required general classes, but slogging through your major?
There are CS majors that learn foundational skills but don't learn practical frameworks that companies are looking for. Also, there many other adults from other backgrounds that never have a chance to learn iOS or ruby or code. We want to provide those opportunities and build a new pipeline of technical talent, particularly for underserved communities.
The school I went to originally had a 60% fail rate with their computer science program. The first class was huge, 80 students to 1 teacher. This was the first time most of the students did any programming at all. To fix, this they changed the course to the class room being "theory". Which mostly meant learning terms (What is an Int, String, etc). The second half of the class was a "lab with paired programming". Those who knew how to program going in would carry those who didn't. Many students couldn't even type at a reasonable speed. If you and your pair had no idea how to complete the assignment, the TA would basically do it for you. This brought the fail rate in line with other classes. This continued for the rest of their college career. You could get through doing zero solo programming.
The result was seniors who don't know about inheritance. The only thing they know is "public void someName()". But, because they don't have good OO practices, it ends up just being 1 program with everything in the main method.
These are the students who don't have technical training. Many came in because "Computers are the future.", "I have a friend making good money doing this.", and "everything is already written I just need to google."
Hi, I'm the founder of the organization. 85% of the class had never written a line of code before. We believe that there are people in Queens and other underserved communities who can learn to code and also pursue tech entrepreneurship.
Nope, this is like everyone doing websites in the 90's during the dotcom bubble.
All small business trying to find honest people ended up hiring someone's 12yr old cousin (trhu a spiffy LLC front) and ended up with worst-than-useless websites full of security holes and zero accessibility.
Hope those projects are all games and fart apps and not mission critical stuff. and since i have a very hard time thinking of mission critical apps, i think the world will endure.
For people in the tech industry, helping out programs like these is an awesome way to give back. Fun, engaging, direct, and makes good use of the skills you already have (i.e. in a volunteering teaching position).
Regardless of the merits of this particular case ... I'm always happy to see people improve their lots in life through education. If someone can learn to program and earn significantly more money, they should go for it.
However, I am concerned when people try and paint any given profession as being some kind of gold rush or as easy money. Even if programming were incredibly simple and anyone could pick it up ... if everyone making $15K learned to program, they would drag the median salary of programmers down to $15K due to over-supply. Our profession in particular really needs more quality before it needs more quantity.
The moral of stories like this should be, "skilled jobs generally pay better than unskilled jobs", not "computer programming is easy and pays exceptionally well!" And at that point, I doubt that is news to anyone.
>if everyone making $15K learned to program, they would drag the median salary of programmers down to $15K due to over-supply.
That's market competition and productivity gains. If your job is so easy that you fear that they could crank out people by the dozens that are as good at your job as you are, then you're going to have to choose a harder job if you want to make more money than them.
I think this is great! As someone who has a background in teaching youth living in poverty who is now a coder, I've often thought about swinging back around and do bootcamp style courses for older teenagers.
""We saw lots of people in the City University of New York system who graduated as computer science majors but weren't going into the tech industry," says Jukay Hsu, founder of Coalition for Queens"
"Not bad, considering 85 percent of the participants had never coded before."
How in the heck can you get a degree in CS while also never having any experience coding. They don't need a non-profit they need to reform that CS department or shut it down.
[+] [-] patio11|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nostromo|12 years ago|reply
> Six months after the first Access Code class of 21 students completed the 18 week course, the 15 graduates who accepted job offers have seen their income rise from under $15,000 to an average of $72,190; the other six students are either still in college or have chosen to launch their own startups
1: Those not getting a job were not included in the average. 2: The analysis is comparing student incomes with working incomes. I imagine every college and university could show amazing income growth using these measures.
[+] [-] frankdenbow|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wsxcde|12 years ago|reply
Not true, see jukay's comment downthread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7631440
[+] [-] kn0thing|12 years ago|reply
https://www.crowdtilt.com/campaigns/donating-my-31st-help-c4...
[+] [-] grannyg00se|12 years ago|reply
This is really confusing. How do you graduate as a computer science major and lack technical training? And if that's the case, how does such a faculty remain in business?
[+] [-] Ologn|12 years ago|reply
Among CS-major seniors who are in the top half of the class, none that I talked to knew what software version control was, what git or Perforce or cvs etc. were.
The faculty is good. Almost all of them knew their stuff, and a few were very good at explaining things clearly.
The kids just didn't seem to have much interest in doing computer stuff outside of class. You'd think at least once in four years they'd browse Github bug reports, do a patch and send a pull request. They don't though. The ACM computer club on campus was always a little derelict and is now pretty much inactive.
A lot of kids have vague ideas about building video games, but then take a graphics course which uses matrix math to calculate transformations, formulas to calculate Phong shading and so forth. After doing that they lose interest.
They do get training - the theoretical stuff is taught beautifully. We also did a lot of Java and C++, as well as some Python, Common Lisp, Prolog etc. As well as learning about DBMSs and the various normal forms, or how the fetch/execute cycle works etc. and all of that.
I don't know how to explain the problem other than that students did the work for a grade and that was it. They had no interest in programming outside of class work. One reason I did extra work was just to feel I could apply things. I learned Java, and then fixed some open source Java bugs, and then wrote a 1000+ line program in order to get a grip on what I learned. Otherwise it would be free floating theory about inheritance, polymorphism, objects etc. The same with graphics - I did some OpenGL work to ground what I learned in class.
Some kids did not even really seem to care about learning what was needed for class or getting a decent grade. I don't know why they're even bothering. I can see slogging through required general classes, but slogging through your major?
[+] [-] jukay|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] faet|12 years ago|reply
The result was seniors who don't know about inheritance. The only thing they know is "public void someName()". But, because they don't have good OO practices, it ends up just being 1 program with everything in the main method.
These are the students who don't have technical training. Many came in because "Computers are the future.", "I have a friend making good money doing this.", and "everything is already written I just need to google."
[+] [-] petsounds|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jukay|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] frankdenbow|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gcb0|12 years ago|reply
All small business trying to find honest people ended up hiring someone's 12yr old cousin (trhu a spiffy LLC front) and ended up with worst-than-useless websites full of security holes and zero accessibility.
Hope those projects are all games and fart apps and not mission critical stuff. and since i have a very hard time thinking of mission critical apps, i think the world will endure.
[+] [-] cjbarber|12 years ago|reply
CodeNow (DC and San Francisco) http://codenow.com/ (currently appears down)
CodeCamp (East Palo Alto) http://www.epacoding.com/
For people in the tech industry, helping out programs like these is an awesome way to give back. Fun, engaging, direct, and makes good use of the skills you already have (i.e. in a volunteering teaching position).
[+] [-] GuzmanMan|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] byuu|12 years ago|reply
However, I am concerned when people try and paint any given profession as being some kind of gold rush or as easy money. Even if programming were incredibly simple and anyone could pick it up ... if everyone making $15K learned to program, they would drag the median salary of programmers down to $15K due to over-supply. Our profession in particular really needs more quality before it needs more quantity.
The moral of stories like this should be, "skilled jobs generally pay better than unskilled jobs", not "computer programming is easy and pays exceptionally well!" And at that point, I doubt that is news to anyone.
[+] [-] pessimizer|12 years ago|reply
That's market competition and productivity gains. If your job is so easy that you fear that they could crank out people by the dozens that are as good at your job as you are, then you're going to have to choose a harder job if you want to make more money than them.
[+] [-] llamataboot|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pmorici|12 years ago|reply
"Not bad, considering 85 percent of the participants had never coded before."
How in the heck can you get a degree in CS while also never having any experience coding. They don't need a non-profit they need to reform that CS department or shut it down.
[+] [-] m_ke|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dfc|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] smm2000|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] aaronchriscohen|12 years ago|reply
https://www.crowdtilt.com/campaigns/donating-my-31st-help-c4...
[+] [-] unknown|12 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] ycmike|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] puppetmaster3|12 years ago|reply
I still get MBA types saying: 'can you build this app for me plz?'
I don't think they want it built, else they'd do it.