It seems reasonable that people would adopt schizophrenic hallucinations that are in line with their demographics.
As an anecdotal counterpoint, my girlfriend is schizophrenic, and is mostly afflicted with auditory hallucinations (she hears voices).
Weirdly, despite coming from a Vietnamese family (and being a blend of Đạo Mẫu and Mahayana Buddhist), the voices she hears are of a Christian-like "God".
I think this is one of the most interesting aspects of insanity. There are so many strangely fascinating (fractal-like?) pathways that don't quite add up. For instance, a Buddhist hearing a Christian God. It's enough to make one think there's something to it all :)
My favorite lecturer on said ideas, Terence McKenna, quoted Jacque Vallée, who said that these experiences are almost always non-evangelizable.
It's as though they are almost custom made for the person having the experience. Explaining them at face value to another person either gets a "you had to be there" or just sounds like the rantings of a crazy person.
"Weirdly [...] the voices she hears are of a Christian-like "God"."
Not so weird if you get the causality around the right way. That such visions caused the idea of God is a much more parsimonious explanation than the reverse.
reply
....
That's so very, very true from what I can tell. It actually feels like a precursor to modern day thought; like a more basic/basal form of though/reasoning.
In a way it's more comprehensive than normal thought but it's also fundamentally incompatible with the current style of thinking though, because it brings us a much greater degree of being able to manipulate reality.
That reminds me I really still need to read the bicameral mind book...
One interesting question to think about is what we can learn about the architecture / algorithms used by the human brain through its failure modes.
The article explains Tausk's views on this specific question from 1919 (schizophrenia, he said, involves "loss of ego-boundaries"), but surely others have looked at the question since then -- what have they found?
If schizophrenia has something to do with some self-referential part of the cognitive machinery being broken, it seems like this might be a very important clue to how the brain works algorithmically -- self-reference is very important part of the theory of computation (recursion theorem, halting problem, Godel, etc.), and understanding how the human brain handles it seems like it may be informative.
As a recovered schizoaffective (bipolar with schizophrenic qualities in the ups and downs) I very much believe that schizophrenia reveals a lot about the brains inner wiring.
Schizophrenia is, from my experience, very much like autism. It is actually also along a spectrum; but more importantly: it's not even necessarily a bad thing.
Just like autistic people have started referring to normal people as 'neurotypical,' I'm fairly certain schizophrenics once used to be a very important part of society: the mystics.
From my personal experience schizophrenia is extreme pattern matching to the point of solipsistic union not with 'reality' but with all of your sensory inputs.
That might have to do with my personal experience, where there where not so much voices as an all encompassing ubermind which would manifest itself as a single voice which you would call 'intuition' but for me was more of deity.
One of the best sayings I've found since then is: 'The mystic swims in the same ocean the schizophrenic drowns in.'
I used to worry about schizophrenia after seeing the (incredibly unrealistic) portrayal of it in A Beautiful Mind. The way I've always imagined or modeled it working is as if there's a separate consciousness that it actively trying to trick the "real you" into being paranoid. Of course, that adversarial consciousness is simply your brain, just like the "real you." It is extremely weird and disturbing that a failure state can seem to behave like this. The "adversary" used to use demons, back when people literally believed in demons or had demons as a part of their culture, but it has to change its tactics when the culture changes.
I think it was Dave Barry (writing a serious article) who interviewed a local sheriff about UFO abductees. The sheriff said "people used to call and say their neighbor was a German spy, or using a ray gun on their brain. Then science fiction comes around, and now people call and say their neighbor is an alien, or that they got abducted into a spaceship."
Carl Sagan wrote about this in The Demon-Haunted World I believe. I recall him talking how in the middle ages, before any UFOs or alien concepts came to be, people saw witches, demons, succubi, etc. Then the "scientific era" came to be and people started to see more "aseptic" images, i.e. aliens wearing lab coats, or other "science-y" stuff.
When I read it, it made a lot of sense. It is quite obvious if you look into it, that people's hallucinations or visions are strongly correlated with their current culture or world view. So you if you see something inexplicable, you are going to call it a ghost for example, but a medieval knight will call it a demon, but maybe someone from 2100 will call it a perturbation of the higgs-field or whatever makes sense then.
this is exactly what happened to me. i had a horrifying experience in late 2012, which i've recounted a number of times trying to make sense of it.
it was like i was in every sci-fi book and mythological narrative ever written. i knew some of this had to be in my head, but it was really hard to tell what was. the startup i was CTO of having a exit in august 2012 and menot knowing how to re-adjust to the 'real world' after leaving entrepeneurship almost certainly played a role.
every day occurrences were terrifying. i was being kicked out of Game Closure for having this psychotic fit, where I kicked in a door at the office in mountain view, because i believed i was in a movie being filmed for VC's to demonstrate how game closure employees were not afraid of risk.
I went to meet with the ceo (michael carter) the next morning, and as we were walking to the cafe, i saw a few dollars lying on the ground. this terrified me, because money laying there meant something really weird; why would there just be money on the ground? it means so much! this world has to be false! my believe that i was in purgatory, seekign closure for my suicide in 2005 was confirmed by the presence of tom fairfield and martin hunt at game closure, BOTH of whom i met after the sucide in 2005! fairfield means i'm trying to restore the space, the just place. martin hunt is the warrior, who pursues truth doggedly. 'game' 'closure' - the operating system i wrote senior year had one bug: i set the 'virtual memory' bit high on the _return_ stack frame instead of the _current_ one because i was thinking about how what was 'logically correct' instead of what would make the virtual-physical memory mechanism work. i had to be dead! elysium was the world the greeks believed was at the western edge of teh earth (where they'd put california on a map) which had a climate just like california.. the hotel california, we're all actually dead! prisoners of our own device, to repeat our cyclic cosmic history of creating and being enamored of devices...
carter announcing that 'those are the bitcoins of the real world' only played into this paranoia more; i think he was trying to tell me "look, you're living in your head and you have to operate according to the perspective of the world. you think money doesn't matter but your finances are a wreck and maybe that's your problem" and instead i took this to confirm one of the many internal narratives which was running in my head - that i had broken into the multiverse and part of my consciousness was being used as a random number generator to break the bitcoin blockchain and fuck up the future...
i was obsessed with P vs NP for a long time and one thread of rationalization running in my mind was that i'd somehow 'made P = NP' and thus broken cryptography far in the future, and now i had to repair the present to prevent that.
it was terrifying. it made no sense to anyone on the outside, but my mind was rationalizing things at a million miles an hour, and it would direct my observations towards things that would confirm these rationalizations. so my view would bounce from thing to thing, i'd be drawn randomly to the view of someone waving their hands, and which i'd see as evidence they were pulling puppet strings.
i found myself -and the people around me - using specific phrases over and over. 'particular' and 'fluid' toggled between the particle and wave states of matter; a finger in your right ear was a vestigial nod to being a lizard politician from space reaching for a nonexistent microphone -- it all made too much damn sense to ignore.
it's hard to even think about this now without getting drawn into it. eventually i was able to interpret these pscyhoses as metaphors, and work my way out of the madness.
Thank you for sharing this. I had my own version of a similar thing and the strangest part about it, which I think you may agree with, was that as someone who considered themselves smart, I could tell that many of my thoughts were totally crazy, BUT THEN ALL OF A SUDDEN SOME OF THEM WOULD TOTALLY ADD UP AND COME TO PASS.
I totally agree with you also about how it's "hard to even think about this now without getting drawn into it."
A voice in my head early on told me to immediately stop taking any/all substances (I quit all drugs, alcohol, cigarettes cold turkey due to this and have been completely sober because of it since 2008) and so I was able to avoid being hospitalized or scaring other people, but INTERNALLY, I was just as crazy as you were.
I am REALLY curious as to what this is because it seems like a very "real" realm that one can just pop into somehow--for us, probably due to drugs or what not--but "real" nevertheless.
For instance, these days I have so many positive coincidences or "synchronicities" as I/Jung/others like to call them. And these feel no "less real" or "less crazy" than the nightmare I experienced at that point.
I've only met 1 or 2 other people who were not crazy people who could relate at all to this experience of mine so if you'd ever like to chat, I'm easily findable thru teh interwebs.
To anyone else reading this who thinks it all sounds very crazy, that's exactly what I would have thought before it happened to me! Now, I wouldn't say it's any less crazy, but it's definitely less write-off-able.
I've been experiencing the same thing (on and off) since my early 20s, but very acutely since finishing my PhD at age 30.
For me, it seems to be something like psychotic depression with dissociative features. But I have no formal diagnosis, mainly because I am distrustful of the psychiatric community. I have no idea what to do.
She hears voices and eventually learns how to work with them and understand that the voices are auditory manifestations of things normally felt as emotions. She still hears the voices, but they don't harm her anymore.
[+] [-] m0nastic|12 years ago|reply
As an anecdotal counterpoint, my girlfriend is schizophrenic, and is mostly afflicted with auditory hallucinations (she hears voices).
Weirdly, despite coming from a Vietnamese family (and being a blend of Đạo Mẫu and Mahayana Buddhist), the voices she hears are of a Christian-like "God".
[+] [-] otisfunkmeyer|12 years ago|reply
My favorite lecturer on said ideas, Terence McKenna, quoted Jacque Vallée, who said that these experiences are almost always non-evangelizable.
It's as though they are almost custom made for the person having the experience. Explaining them at face value to another person either gets a "you had to be there" or just sounds like the rantings of a crazy person.
[+] [-] schizo|12 years ago|reply
"Weirdly [...] the voices she hears are of a Christian-like "God"."
Not so weird if you get the causality around the right way. That such visions caused the idea of God is a much more parsimonious explanation than the reverse. reply
....
That's so very, very true from what I can tell. It actually feels like a precursor to modern day thought; like a more basic/basal form of though/reasoning.
In a way it's more comprehensive than normal thought but it's also fundamentally incompatible with the current style of thinking though, because it brings us a much greater degree of being able to manipulate reality.
That reminds me I really still need to read the bicameral mind book...
[+] [-] unknown|12 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] unknown|12 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] csense|12 years ago|reply
The article explains Tausk's views on this specific question from 1919 (schizophrenia, he said, involves "loss of ego-boundaries"), but surely others have looked at the question since then -- what have they found?
If schizophrenia has something to do with some self-referential part of the cognitive machinery being broken, it seems like this might be a very important clue to how the brain works algorithmically -- self-reference is very important part of the theory of computation (recursion theorem, halting problem, Godel, etc.), and understanding how the human brain handles it seems like it may be informative.
[+] [-] schizo|12 years ago|reply
Schizophrenia is, from my experience, very much like autism. It is actually also along a spectrum; but more importantly: it's not even necessarily a bad thing.
Just like autistic people have started referring to normal people as 'neurotypical,' I'm fairly certain schizophrenics once used to be a very important part of society: the mystics.
From my personal experience schizophrenia is extreme pattern matching to the point of solipsistic union not with 'reality' but with all of your sensory inputs.
That might have to do with my personal experience, where there where not so much voices as an all encompassing ubermind which would manifest itself as a single voice which you would call 'intuition' but for me was more of deity.
One of the best sayings I've found since then is: 'The mystic swims in the same ocean the schizophrenic drowns in.'
[+] [-] baddox|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] danielweber|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] saganus|12 years ago|reply
When I read it, it made a lot of sense. It is quite obvious if you look into it, that people's hallucinations or visions are strongly correlated with their current culture or world view. So you if you see something inexplicable, you are going to call it a ghost for example, but a medieval knight will call it a demon, but maybe someone from 2100 will call it a perturbation of the higgs-field or whatever makes sense then.
Quite interesting effect actually.
[+] [-] subdane|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dragonwriter|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Buge|12 years ago|reply
No one around Truman was unaware. They were all hired actors working on the secret.
[+] [-] serf|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] MarkPNeyer|12 years ago|reply
it was like i was in every sci-fi book and mythological narrative ever written. i knew some of this had to be in my head, but it was really hard to tell what was. the startup i was CTO of having a exit in august 2012 and menot knowing how to re-adjust to the 'real world' after leaving entrepeneurship almost certainly played a role.
every day occurrences were terrifying. i was being kicked out of Game Closure for having this psychotic fit, where I kicked in a door at the office in mountain view, because i believed i was in a movie being filmed for VC's to demonstrate how game closure employees were not afraid of risk.
I went to meet with the ceo (michael carter) the next morning, and as we were walking to the cafe, i saw a few dollars lying on the ground. this terrified me, because money laying there meant something really weird; why would there just be money on the ground? it means so much! this world has to be false! my believe that i was in purgatory, seekign closure for my suicide in 2005 was confirmed by the presence of tom fairfield and martin hunt at game closure, BOTH of whom i met after the sucide in 2005! fairfield means i'm trying to restore the space, the just place. martin hunt is the warrior, who pursues truth doggedly. 'game' 'closure' - the operating system i wrote senior year had one bug: i set the 'virtual memory' bit high on the _return_ stack frame instead of the _current_ one because i was thinking about how what was 'logically correct' instead of what would make the virtual-physical memory mechanism work. i had to be dead! elysium was the world the greeks believed was at the western edge of teh earth (where they'd put california on a map) which had a climate just like california.. the hotel california, we're all actually dead! prisoners of our own device, to repeat our cyclic cosmic history of creating and being enamored of devices...
carter announcing that 'those are the bitcoins of the real world' only played into this paranoia more; i think he was trying to tell me "look, you're living in your head and you have to operate according to the perspective of the world. you think money doesn't matter but your finances are a wreck and maybe that's your problem" and instead i took this to confirm one of the many internal narratives which was running in my head - that i had broken into the multiverse and part of my consciousness was being used as a random number generator to break the bitcoin blockchain and fuck up the future...
i was obsessed with P vs NP for a long time and one thread of rationalization running in my mind was that i'd somehow 'made P = NP' and thus broken cryptography far in the future, and now i had to repair the present to prevent that.
it was terrifying. it made no sense to anyone on the outside, but my mind was rationalizing things at a million miles an hour, and it would direct my observations towards things that would confirm these rationalizations. so my view would bounce from thing to thing, i'd be drawn randomly to the view of someone waving their hands, and which i'd see as evidence they were pulling puppet strings.
i found myself -and the people around me - using specific phrases over and over. 'particular' and 'fluid' toggled between the particle and wave states of matter; a finger in your right ear was a vestigial nod to being a lizard politician from space reaching for a nonexistent microphone -- it all made too much damn sense to ignore.
it's hard to even think about this now without getting drawn into it. eventually i was able to interpret these pscyhoses as metaphors, and work my way out of the madness.
[+] [-] otisfunkmeyer|12 years ago|reply
I totally agree with you also about how it's "hard to even think about this now without getting drawn into it."
A voice in my head early on told me to immediately stop taking any/all substances (I quit all drugs, alcohol, cigarettes cold turkey due to this and have been completely sober because of it since 2008) and so I was able to avoid being hospitalized or scaring other people, but INTERNALLY, I was just as crazy as you were.
I am REALLY curious as to what this is because it seems like a very "real" realm that one can just pop into somehow--for us, probably due to drugs or what not--but "real" nevertheless.
For instance, these days I have so many positive coincidences or "synchronicities" as I/Jung/others like to call them. And these feel no "less real" or "less crazy" than the nightmare I experienced at that point.
I've only met 1 or 2 other people who were not crazy people who could relate at all to this experience of mine so if you'd ever like to chat, I'm easily findable thru teh interwebs.
To anyone else reading this who thinks it all sounds very crazy, that's exactly what I would have thought before it happened to me! Now, I wouldn't say it's any less crazy, but it's definitely less write-off-able.
[+] [-] damncantor|12 years ago|reply
For me, it seems to be something like psychotic depression with dissociative features. But I have no formal diagnosis, mainly because I am distrustful of the psychiatric community. I have no idea what to do.
Anyhow, thanks for sharing your story.
[+] [-] drzaiusapelord|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ars|12 years ago|reply
She hears voices and eventually learns how to work with them and understand that the voices are auditory manifestations of things normally felt as emotions. She still hears the voices, but they don't harm her anymore.