This post is confusing both because I do not speak French and because the caffeine hasn't kicked in yet, so I read that as LeBron Coin. Which doesn't seem all that bad for a gimmicky crypto currency, honestly.
So there's this website that's the 7th in france according to Alexa (http://www.alexa.com/topsites/countries/FR) It's the craigslist of france. They don't have email alerts so I built a web app that does just that.
Then they noticed the traffic from my server (I guess) and blocked my IP from scraping their site, making the app basically useless, so I just forgot about it.
Now they are telling that I'm using their trademark in a way that can make users confuse my service with theirs, that according to their TOS I can't event link to their website without authorization (am I even bound by their TOS if I don't use their website?) and so on and so forth.
It was just a side project for me, so I don't mind dropping it.
For those who don't read French and don't wish to investigate too much, "leboncoin" (le bon coin) roughly means "the good neighborhood/hangout" (and literally means "the good corner") in French.
In brief , Craiglist french website version known as "leboncoin.fr" sent a letter to the author of "lebonmail.fr" a website that uses leboncoin.fr API to send its users a daily email alerts of items to be sold on "leboncoin.fr".
The letter ask the author to stop using the service provided by leboncoin.fr immediately .
In the U.S., this would be like someone creating a Craigslist screen scraper and calling it Craigsmail. Craiglist might have something to say about that.
Scraping is clearly covered by robots.txt, one of the earliest conventions on the web. In their case (http://www.leboncoin.fr/robots.txt) they allow the spiders from most commercial search engine, but disallow all others.
I think it's a terrible idea from Schibsted (the Norwegian owners of the company) to react like this; but then again, lawyers...
Leboncoin is so badly made it's a joke, and they completely monopolize the market. I'm raging just thinking I'm gonna have to use it to look for an apartment and sell my furniture in Bordeaux those next months. Makes me want to build a competition.
Salut confrère Bordelais!
The thing is that with 24 M+ listings and a free basic service, no one will ever be able to compete. Maybe alternatives would be possible if limited to a specific area.
The weak spot of leboncoin is that you need to pay a stranger before getting your stuff. There is a non negligible portion of scam.
Leboncoin is also filled with stolen goods. I've spent quite a while researching used bikes there and I've visited a couple shady characters with garages full of bikes…
Comparing with a similar search on Craigslist in Boston, I'd say that leboncoin is much worse in this respect, and that's saying something.
I would love to work on an alternative too. It will be hard to attract people, but with strong features, would be possible. (But Craiglist is still #1 in the US, even if it's uglier than leboncoin...)
to sum up the author of the news and recipient of the mail cannot read french correctly.
It is a cease and desist letter on the use of a name «lebonXXX.fr» that in all due respect seem is a clear parasitism of a registred brand: it bears a similar name, it is related to the activity of the original site. And le boncoin.fr is registered @ l'INPI (national registration office of brands).
In PI law, the infringement is about the confusion that results in the brand aka reputation and not on the use of an external API.
It does not mean I support leboncoin, because I could not care less. @ least I don't appreciate people misleading others based on fake victimisation.
Cher jonathan: en matière de droit «nul ne peut se prévaloir de ses propres turpitudes»
You have a point, but even if the author rebranded his website, he would still violate the TOS when providing direct links to listings (and maybe when scraping the website but this is not clearly forbidden in the TOS).
The discussion is mostly about this (I think).
I do not claim anything, nor do I victimize myself, I just stated the obvious namely that leboncoin.fr dosen't like my webapp. The letter is theirs.
It might be possible to register a domain with INPI but not a wildcard like lebonXXX.fr
You might be right though, which is why I complied and removed all mention of their brand name and any functionality related to it from my site as soon as I received their letter.
Correct me if I am wrong, but maybe one way to look at the CFAA or situations like this one is that every website has the right to deny access to any particular user.
This can be done via firewall ruleset but also via cease and desist letter.
That seems reasonable.
But... for this type of approach to make sense with respect to a website that wants as much traffic as posssible, we have to make certain assumptions.
One assumption is that few if any users will automate their usage.
If hundreds of people began to write their own "apps" to automate how they use this website, then the lawyers would have a more serious problem that they might not be able to solve.
The website operators might have to reconsider their access model.
Could they move to a subscription-only service?
Could they use a whitelist of IP address blocks?
Could they still be competitive if they began to move away from open access?
In my opinion, the practicality of the cease and desist letter approach to website access (anyone can access except if we tell you to stop) is reliant on expected patterns of usage.
When kids learn how to program in school, should that day ever come, then they will learn how to automate. They wil be able to write their own "apps".
Will cease and desist letters and the judicial system be fully automated at that point? (The evolution of the DMCA comes to mind.)
The RIAA and others have tried to sue large groups of users all at once and it did not achieve anything except bad PR. Could website operators bring proceedings against large numbers of users and succeed?
This is our craiglist. And they also have the craiglist of many other countries. The website op made crawls leboncoin and other websites to look for specific items for people. The letter mentions both the use of a "closely" related name and the linking of listings as in violation of the TOS.
Hi Johnathan, they deliberately don't want to provide email alerts or even a decent search because that would break their rather excellent business models (users spend hours browsing pages of listing rather than searching which drives page views and ads impressions). They killed a site similar to yours a few years ago (leboncoinrss or something along the lines I believe). I wouldn't try to base a business on something which hijack the user experience they have created. On my spare time I'm scrapping their site to do some data analysis and so far despite the traffic I generate no problem. Let me know if you want to discuss that.
[+] [-] hbbio|12 years ago|reply
An extract (translated to English): "no hyperlink TO [our site] can be done without prior agreement". I hope they're suing Google too :)
[+] [-] justbaker|12 years ago|reply
I did it! and they said I couldn't..
[+] [-] kubiiii|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] meepmorp|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jfoucher|12 years ago|reply
Then they noticed the traffic from my server (I guess) and blocked my IP from scraping their site, making the app basically useless, so I just forgot about it.
Now they are telling that I'm using their trademark in a way that can make users confuse my service with theirs, that according to their TOS I can't event link to their website without authorization (am I even bound by their TOS if I don't use their website?) and so on and so forth.
It was just a side project for me, so I don't mind dropping it.
The source code is on Github though if anyone is interested (https://github.com/jfoucher/lebonmail)
[+] [-] klawed|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wallzz|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] michaelhoffman|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kubiiii|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] eloisant|12 years ago|reply
This way the traffic comes from all your users, not one single IP address and you have a better chance to stay off the radar.
[+] [-] bertil|12 years ago|reply
I think it's a terrible idea from Schibsted (the Norwegian owners of the company) to react like this; but then again, lawyers...
[+] [-] baby|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kubiiii|12 years ago|reply
The weak spot of leboncoin is that you need to pay a stranger before getting your stuff. There is a non negligible portion of scam.
If you want a hand...
[+] [-] carlob|12 years ago|reply
Comparing with a similar search on Craigslist in Boston, I'd say that leboncoin is much worse in this respect, and that's saying something.
[+] [-] retube|12 years ago|reply
Holy first world problems batman!
[+] [-] LaurentGh|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] conradfr|12 years ago|reply
I see Leboncoin as Craiglist, they are ugly etc but they just work.
[+] [-] thibauts|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] agumonkey|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] julie1|12 years ago|reply
It is a cease and desist letter on the use of a name «lebonXXX.fr» that in all due respect seem is a clear parasitism of a registred brand: it bears a similar name, it is related to the activity of the original site. And le boncoin.fr is registered @ l'INPI (national registration office of brands).
In PI law, the infringement is about the confusion that results in the brand aka reputation and not on the use of an external API.
It does not mean I support leboncoin, because I could not care less. @ least I don't appreciate people misleading others based on fake victimisation.
Cher jonathan: en matière de droit «nul ne peut se prévaloir de ses propres turpitudes»
[+] [-] kubiiii|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jfoucher|12 years ago|reply
I do not claim anything, nor do I victimize myself, I just stated the obvious namely that leboncoin.fr dosen't like my webapp. The letter is theirs.
It might be possible to register a domain with INPI but not a wildcard like lebonXXX.fr
You might be right though, which is why I complied and removed all mention of their brand name and any functionality related to it from my site as soon as I received their letter.
[+] [-] torvix|12 years ago|reply
http://www.numerama.com/magazine/26352-le-bon-coin-demande-a...
[+] [-] Royaleagle|12 years ago|reply
I think there is a lack of a geolocalisation service on the lbc website.
I know that http://www.spothers.com/fr/ is working on it. A umpteenth tentative to beat lbc.
[+] [-] yp_all|12 years ago|reply
This can be done via firewall ruleset but also via cease and desist letter.
That seems reasonable.
But... for this type of approach to make sense with respect to a website that wants as much traffic as posssible, we have to make certain assumptions.
One assumption is that few if any users will automate their usage.
If hundreds of people began to write their own "apps" to automate how they use this website, then the lawyers would have a more serious problem that they might not be able to solve.
The website operators might have to reconsider their access model.
Could they move to a subscription-only service?
Could they use a whitelist of IP address blocks?
Could they still be competitive if they began to move away from open access?
In my opinion, the practicality of the cease and desist letter approach to website access (anyone can access except if we tell you to stop) is reliant on expected patterns of usage.
When kids learn how to program in school, should that day ever come, then they will learn how to automate. They wil be able to write their own "apps".
Will cease and desist letters and the judicial system be fully automated at that point? (The evolution of the DMCA comes to mind.)
The RIAA and others have tried to sue large groups of users all at once and it did not achieve anything except bad PR. Could website operators bring proceedings against large numbers of users and succeed?
[+] [-] eaxbin|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kubiiii|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dgerges|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lbr78480|12 years ago|reply
I am now building some kind of (read) API to the website.
The work is in progress, and on a restricted area (one country) I am able to index all pages in near real time (near...).
Maybe someone of you may be interested into some info or collaboration ?
Here is my email jhin2g9e8o2ik7j at jetable dot org
Bye Lbr
[+] [-] Royaleagle|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pilooch|12 years ago|reply