I appreciate the authors taking the time to write this (unfortunately this HN comment page emphasizes the uphill climb ahead). But there's one thing in particular I, selfishly, appreciated them addressing:
"Does this mean we’re going to get angry at you if you try to help and get it wrong?"
This fear was something that kept me from speaking out for many years. I'm a guy in tech and I want to see change occur but I'm ignorant about these things. I don't truly understand the challenges that women face in our industry. And because I'm relatively ignorant, I worry that I might say something that was intended as supportive but winds up contributing to the problem: white-knighting, disempowering, calling attention to something that the person affected wanted to leave alone.
Personally, I've come to terms that I'm going to try my best and risk screwing up occasionally. It's scary but I think it's better than the alternative of sitting by and doing nothing. But it makes me feel a lot better to hear that I'm not alone in worrying about this.
Compare that with http://jacobian.org/writing/what-can-men-do/ , which is linked to in the OP in which he criticizes Jeff Atwood for doing it wrong. So wrong that he won't even link to him, even though he acknowledges that his intentions are good.
One thing that no one seems to address in these discussions (of which at least one appears every week) is how will feminism actually solve these problems?
Actually, I'd like to address this paragraph:
Feminism is not a dirty word. Feminism is the radical notion that women are people, and that we want to be treated as equals. Don’t let someone else pretend otherwise out of their own misguided notions.
The author(s) repeat a very common cliche, and insist on this as the one true definition of feminism. Yet in reality, feminism is splintered, divided into many schools, disagrees on fundamental issues (sex-positivity versus sex-negativity and transgender inclusion versus transgender exclusion, most notably) and is not a coherent movement. The same applies for virtually all ideologies.
Some will repeat that quote, some will say "gender equality", others will go for "women's liberation", "abolition of X concept considered problematic", "separatism" or a variety of other reasons.
Which school do we adopt? Why? How will it change things? Is feminism really that seamless of an ideology that it is the one true way to fix things?
"sex-positivity versus sex-negativity and transgender inclusion versus transgender exclusion"
Presenting a biased view to an audience new to a subject is dishonest. You're using selected terms to groom the readers to the side with the "schools of thought" you agree with. I could use the terms "neoliberalism verses class analysis and genderism verses gender criticism" and we'd still be referring to the same things. Of course, I would never use those terms at HN in the way you used yours, because I value real discourse.
Your central point is of course correct: "feminism" is an umbrella term (heck that's the first sentence on the Wikipedia page). Using ignorance of that fact as an opportunity to propagandize is shameful.
Sometimes I feel like there are people that confuse just being a jerk in general, with being a jerk specifically to women.
In this industry I've met a lot of really great people, and unfortunately a ton of arrogant, egotistical, pretentious and aggressive jerks. I've felt like crap being around those people tons of times.
Sometimes they say mean things about women, sometimes about liberals or republicans or people from India or making fun of someone's Github pull request to an open source project. I've heard things that smell of Social Darwinism. All kinds of junk. But all of it seems to come from the same jerks. It doesn't seem like there is like the "I hate women" jerk and the "Stupid people deserve poverty" etc. It seems like most hateful jerks just hate everyone.
It seems in tech, people's positions in companies are very much based on a particular skill or having a bunch of money. And very little to do with whether or not they are a jerk. So maybe this is just that we end up with a higher concentration of general jerks? Also, right now this industry is where the money is, and that always has a tendency to up the jerk ratio as well.
It makes me sad to read this stuff, but a genuine question for other male readers. Have you heard of, or come into contact with any of this abhorrent behavior that's mentioned? I have never seen it anywhere I worked, or heard of that sort of thing through word of mouth, but obviously that's a terrible sample set.
My experiences related to women in tech:
* Everywhere I've worked, it's been a boys club, but we'd LOVE to hire more women. Frankly, hiring is hard in general. When women have come in to interview, I can't speak for others - but I know in the back of my head, my biggest concern is, "Make sure you interview with the same standards as anyone else, but make sure you don't have some subconscious bias because she's a she."
* There are probably good female engineers, and not so good ones. One of the few "not so good ones" I know of (doesn't mean she'll never improve, just at the time) had to be super carefully managed out over a long time. There was no unceremonious firing, that's for sure.
* Is there even a "women in tech" problem? Or is it just "women in the workforce, no matter the industry"? The kinds of ridiculous behavior women are describing in these articles sound to me like they could happen in finance, sales, marketing, HR, or anywhere.
* On any of the open source mailing lists I'm on, I've never seen anything remotely close to, "Your pull request sucks you whre, try again". Are these just the mythical basement dwelling trolls of Slashdot lore reaching out privately via email?
Most of the engineers I know in tech are decent, upstanding guys. If anything, I feel like if any of us was pulled aside by a female co-worker and she described shenanigans of the sort I read about in these articles, we'd probably jump to their defense in a heart beat, almost maybe too easily.
What have the rest of you experienced?
*
Edit: I left the above (my OP) in tact. After re-reading it, and some responses, it's become clear to me that it gives off an air of, "I don't believe these reports", and that's not really what I intended.
I suppose my main point was that no, I haven't experienced it, and I think that's exactly what these women are saying - Just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it's not there. So really, despite getting some up votes, I think I missed the boat.
I was curious if others on my (the male) side have in fact seen it, but what does that tell us? Probably not much.
You won't see most of these incidents, because harassers do it when there are few witnesses. Ask your female colleagues for their stories. They all have them.
So how does this fit with your "Most of the engineers I know in tech are decent, upstanding guys." - it fits perfectly. Clearly you know some who aren't decent. It only takes one to harass, and he can harass a large number of women; in fact the pattern is commonly to try it on with every woman, but in a way that leaves it as he said/she said.
This is why "not all men do this" is such a weak-minded response. Don't let it slide. Your second guessing of women in your first point, and your "too easily" in the last indicate the problem too. Women who report harassment often get laid off or managed out afterwards, even when they have got the harasser fired. It is a very high risk thing for them to do, and your "not all men" attitude is a key way that harassers are sheltered.
You read the story of a range of women from across the industry, said you haven't had the experience these women have had, and then explicitly asked men for their opinions. See if you can figure out the bug here.
* "We have this problem with our iOS app."
* "I use Android and have never seen this. Any other Android users encounter this?"
You bring up an interesting point, which is visibility. All of this stuff absolutely happens, but a _lot_ of it goes unreported. This leads to a situation where if you're 'on the inside,' you see and hear about it all the time. If you're not, then you don't.
Generally, when I say "women have informal networks where they share stories of abuse to help other women be cautious around certain actors", there are two reactions: A nodding head, or a 'what the fuck?'
Yes, as a white male I see it constantly. I worked for what I would consider one of the best for women in tech (ThoughtWorks) and even there you see this stuff. So much more in other places.
> Most of the engineers I know in tech are decent, upstanding guys. If anything, I feel like if any of us was pulled aside by a female co-worker and she described shenanigans of the sort I read about in these articles, we'd probably jump to their defense in a heart beat, almost maybe too easily.
So here's the thing: most guys everywhere are decent, upstanding guys. Don't think that MVC is writing this to slander decent, upstanding guys. But being decent and upstanding does not make you aware of all forms of harassment and discrimination, and you can still do harm without meaning to or being aware that you're doing it. It's important to talk about the experiences of women in tech, to talk with women in tech and understand what their concerns are, not because they want to beat you over the head for being a bad person, but because you just don't see it. I can never have the experiences of a woman in tech - I'm not one. That's why it's so important to listen to what they are saying.
a genuine question for other male readers. Have you heard of, or come into contact with any of this abhorrent behavior that's mentioned?
Why do you need a "male reader" to confirm this to you? Your question reads thus: 'I can't believe this if I only hear it from a woman-- is there a man in the audience who can confirm this?'
To turn it around a bit, why do you find these stories unbelievable & why do you need a man to confirm their veracity?
> Have you heard of, or come into contact with any of this abhorrent behavior that's mentioned?
Yes.
White, privileged male.
I was attending Pycon 2013 in Santa, Clara. I had just spent the lunch hour with a good friend and his acquaintance, X. As we were leaving X decided it was an appropriate time to quietly share his views about women in tech with me. I was mortified at that moment and promptly exited the conversation without addressing X's comments to me.
I've felt terrible about that exchange ever since.
If you're not seeing it, it's statistically highly unlikely that you're not coming into contact with it. Reading and understanding feminist perspectives can help you become more observant. Hacker News provides plenty of opportunities for practice identifying hostile-to-women comments.
If you're not hearing about it through word of mouth, then it could be that you don't talk to a lot of women in tech, or don't talk to them about these issues, or you aren't fully hearing what they're saying. It could also be that they don't feel comfortable in discussing them with you. Look at your language and behavior and think about what could be sending unintentional messages that cause people to steer clear from this discussion. How many can you spot in this post, and in your reply to Anil?
I have left a company because they flat-out refused to consider hiring women for coding jobs, with the CEO saying that women are too fragile for critical roles.
This kind of idiocy is relatively common in UK executives, as a fairly large chunk of them went to exclusive private boys schools and so never had to really deal with women as equal peers until adulthood.
It makes me sad to read this stuff, but a genuine question for other male readers. Have you heard of, or come into contact with any of this abhorrent behavior that's mentioned?
I've been out of college for about 6 years now. The worst I even encountered professionally was a joke shared in a group of 3 or 4 dudes about women drivers. I remember it well because it was so incongruous with everything else I've seen. There was also a booth babe at a conference I went to, and everyone I spoke with (including staff) considered it at the very least tacky. There were blog posts about harassment at that conference, but I never witnessed any nor did anyone in my group of friends, acquaintances and colleagues attending ever speak of being uncomfortable there.
I hear about more harassment towards the women I'm friends with after any given night of drinking at bars than the total I've ever heard from them about work.
The more overtly unwelcoming behavior seems to crop up outside of the office at networking events and conferences (and IRC and twitter and the bottom of this page).
I will point out that of the various direct and second-level managers I've had since entering the industry in the early 2000s only three (out of a total of fourteen) were minorities.
As another guy in tech I share your experiences. I have never witnessed anything like what was described in that article and I have been working in tech for around 10 years now in a very diverse workplace.
I also know of at least 1 woman who if she was a man would have been fired long ago yet she stays on because managers are basically afraid to fire her.
I'm not saying these problems don't exist, I just find it hard to believe they are as widespread as is claimed. I know many women in tech and not one of them had a problem finding a job which is a good thing. This is my personal experience so make of it what you will.
Male here. Yes. Many many times. If anything, this is a very conservative report.
I'm guessing that you've seen it, too. Probably you didn't notice it, because it wasn't directed at you, and everyone in the room was also pretending it didn't happen.
> Make sure you interview with the same standards as anyone else
Reading these open letters, isn't that The Wrong Thing? "Promote the fuck out of diversity" (from the OP) sounds as if we should strongly prefer female programmers, with a bigger focus on a healthy team than on skills alone. (Also related: http://readwrite.com/2014/01/24/github-meritocracy-rug)
I'm genuinely curious because my experience is the same as yours (= nothing bad happened), but it dawns on me that I am now considered a part of the problem. :|
I've seen some milder forms of it. As a team lead about 20 years ago, one of my guys started going on about the virtues of the "cheesecake" in the game we were working on. In the middle of a meeting between him, myself and our other coder who happened to be female. She got really quiet, and I said something to him along the lines of, "Oh, come on, man," and moved the meeting along. Didn't really address it beyond that; my own social skills weren't up to taking it further, and I didn't notice any more like that for the remainder of the project.
Mostly, though, the shops I've worked in haven't had these issues, at least not anywhere that I could see them. Women seem to have been well integrated into our teams when there were any.
I think that a lot of the behavior mentioned in the letter is stuff that no-one wants to work with. Guys who will act weird with a co-worker because they're (female/minority/disabled/whatever) are good people to avoid for professional reasons; it implies numerous faults in character and understanding, and no good excuse for them.
this is one of the more thoughtful pieces i've read on the issue.
it's obvious to anyone really paying attention the tech industry (and probably most other industries) has been extremely unfair to women. writing like this--clear on the problem and supportive of people who want to help--is important, but it's also important to remember that we all collectively have to act to actually change things.
Seriously. There are so few women in the tech industry, how would it be obvious to notice they have been unfairly treated?
One place I worked has a newspaper article on the wall about the high numbers of women hey hired. There were still only 3 on a floor of around 100 staff. All the places I have worked they have been treated as equals.
"this is one of the more thoughtful pieces i've read on the issue" is bull shit. I'm male and even I can figure this out.
Do you see what you're doing here? Do you even realize? Your comment reads: "THESE women are actually thoughtful, not like those bra-burning man-hating diatribes that I've come across from those crazy women in tech. If only all women were this calm and docile when talking about this subject." Maybe that wasn't the precise thoughts behind it, but it comes off as that condescending to everyone (particularly the women) who don't fit to your standards. You are saying "if you're going to talk about gender in tech, or even gender at all, be like these women or I don't care/you're crazy."
Every "piece", whatever the tone, is written for specific reasons, and you'd rather take the lazy route and rank them as "more/less thoughtful" than actually try to understand those reasons. Hey, I agree, there are some articles and such on gender-in-tech out there that could make points more strongly, could be tailored to their audience better, etc etc. You should respond to those with honest, interested questions. Not this. Edit: from the actual article itself:
"Being nice doesn’t work. We’ve been nice. Some of us that have written down our stories here have even been paraded around by men in the industry for how nice we’ve been in trying to address the social problems in tech as a way to discredit more vocal, astutely firm feminist voices. We don’t like this, we’ve never liked it, and it needs to stop."
Parading this article as "more reasonable" is the same dynamic; don't settle for the speech that you're comfortable with. Go back and try to understand why the other, louder speech made you uncomfortable.
I am going to convey my experience of reading this, in the hopes that it might be helpful. The message that I get from this essay is as follows.
"We are angry with the way we are treated as women, by men. We are angry with the way we see other women being treated by men. Even though you might not personally have treated us like this, we know that you are a man, like other men, and we hold you responsible for what has happened to us and what we have seen. You have power, and we don't. It is by your choice and negligence as men that we are powerless and demeaned. You are not innocent, even though you think you are. We aren't interested in your opinion. You don't know anything. You need to change to make us not angry."
The reason I think this might be interesting is that I know (re-reading the letter, especially) that THIS IS NOT WHAT THE LETTER SAYS. For one thing, it is far from the only thing discussed in the letter; more importantly, however, I don't think this interpretation is all that fair a reading of what the authors have actually written. I know that it's a distorted version of what they intended to convey, and it might not even represent a correct interpretation of how any of them feel.
So why is this my impression? Your own conclusions are welcome, of course. You're free to dismiss me out of hand. But for myself, I think that it has to do with the confluence of two factors. Firstly, I don't really feel that I have a lot of power over women. Actually, I feel like women have a lot of power over me. My life is inextricably entangled with the lives of women, and it would be a meaningless, barren hell were this not so. But instead, and secondly, I am being told how separate I actually am --- and always will be --- from women. I am being told that women are not being treated as people by writers who go on to talk about women, and men, and the relationship of victimization between the two, without hardly a word about people, and how people treat each other, and how some people come to treat other people differently, and what we can do about it. Instead, I feel, I am being told that I am wrong to treat people as 'women' by people who are using the power of that identity as leverage to demand my compliance.
If feminism is the radical notion that women are people, then a feminism that is not about people is radically flawed. I don't like people having power over me, either. I don't like being treated as the avatar of someone's fears, pain, and disappointment, either. I don't like not being treated as if I'm me, really a person, either.
This is all off the cuff, and I have no time to be writing it, but that's my experience, and my reaction, and thanks for reading it.
>Kat has started organizing casual lightning talks featuring female speakers. The talks have now taken place in both San Francisco and New York.
I thought that attending these would help me in various ways (all the words I can come up with fail to fit my sentiments so I'm going to leave it vague like this), but the link [1] doesn't lead to any resource where I can find out about future such events (presumably they'd be held at Stripe since Kat, the host, is employed there). Does anyone know where I can find this info?
> If you see someone engage in bad behavior and you do nothing, you've chosen to let that person think that what they did is okay. This leaves us feeling like we’re fighting this alone.
There is easily dozens (hundreds?) of "fights" that I could get into everyday but I don't. I'm not really a confrontational person. Please don't take it personally when this fight is also one I don't get into.
Article conflates feminism with women. Not all women are Feminist or seek to be. Women are human beings and should be treated as such. Feminism is an ideology and should be treated as such. Why confuse people by taking about them like they're the same thing?
I wish we could leave codebabes.com out of the equation when it comes to women in tech. This is not an industry thing, and opinions on whether or not it's okay for these kind of things to exist are divided, and not across gender lines and including amongst feminists.
It falls in the same category as porn. It's a valid debate, but it's a separate debate.
This is a topic I feel very strongly about, but I have to treat like it's radioactive. Hence, this is a throwaway account and I will not be using it again.
I am a white male in my early 30s. I'm strongly libertarian and do everything in my power to make sure that people have the opportunity to work in a safe and non-threatening environment. I go out of my way to make sure that people who do not share my "type A" personality are included in group activities, and spend a good deal of energy monitoring and adjusting my body language to be inviting without being aggressive. This in particular doesn't come naturally to me, and as an introvert, is quite exhausting.
The one time I attempted to work with the the social circle that authors and maintains Model-View-Culture, I was met with the single most obvious and aggressive display of sexism I've encountered in my professional career. They used gender-based names to refer to me in a very derogatory and degrading way, and proceeded to go through my social profiles and mock my private life and family - because I had the audacity to attempt to engage them in a conversation while being male.
> Does this mean we’re going to get angry at you if you try to help and get it wrong?
> This is an a fear that has come to light through side channels. Men know there is a problem, and they’re worried the women they know are on the defensive - especially when reading a direct call to action like this one.
> They want to help but they’re worried if they don’t get everything just right, someone will chastise them into oblivion.
No, I'm not worried that I'll be chastised - I'm worried that my gender will result in a situation where any action (or inaction) on my part will result in my being ostracized from the professional community to which I've devoted a large part of my adult life. Further, I base this fear on my own actual experience and the direct observation of the experiences of others.
> The people signing this document are patient when they see someone trying to make a difference.
Perhaps. To be fair, the people who lashed out at me are not listed on this document. They are members of the same social circle though, and the thought of putting my career and my family's livelihood on the line to try and solve problems that do not directly impact me is terrifying. I am supposed to trust them not to dox me, spread that information to their entire social circle, then use it to publicly shame me?
I want to help. I really do. I have a wife, daughters, and my own mother is a long-time feminist. I consider myself a feminist, though not of the radical far-left variety they practice. As much as I've been preached to about how feminism is hostile because they are not in a position of power, they've wielded that power arbitrarily and willfully when they found themselves able to do so.
>> We are not the 'nice feminists' of this community.
> Being nice doesn’t work. We’ve been nice.
In this article you were actually all nice and I read right to the bottom. I certainly do find it a lot easier to listen to and agree with people that aren't spilling hatred at me. I never want to feel like I'm giving time to somebody trying to extract some psychological harm as revenge on my gender - whether or not they have a reason to be angry with the status quo, the target market often doesn't last long enough to receive your message.
> We are tired of our male peers pretending that because they
> do not participate in bad behavior, that it is not their problem
> to solve. If you see someone engage in bad behavior and you
> do nothing, you’ve chosen to let that person think that what they
> did is okay. This leaves us feeling like we’re fighting this alone.
> We can’t work on what we can’t see, but if you’re there when it
> happens, you can help. It is absolutely imperative that men work
> with other men to combat bad attitudes and behavior.
This is true. Though it's not just heteronormativity or misogyny. It often seems like there might be the "bystander effect" at play, too. Not that you were arguing that and not to try to argue that this makes it okay, but just to argue that people taking responsibility when they have the power to do so are the exception and not the rule in human nature.
I agree that people should speak up if you see something wrong even if they just say something small, but I reckon it will be hard/impossible to educate all to do so. However if those that notice something is up speak up then it will be a better place for all of us. And for those that notice but are too shy to kick up a fuss, there is always more subtle signalling that can be used: tilt your body away from the aggressor, go quiet and start a conversation with somebody outside the group - disinterest, and "awkwardness" can be powerful.
* * *
Going slightly off-topic here just to say something that I care about. Something that has been quite difficult for me to read in other feminist pieces/tweets is the meme "not all men" which is often quickly followed by "ALL MEN!". It might be annoying to have guys constantly interrupting to raise themselves onto a little pedestal as caring gentlemen, but this is creating a wall between two groups and we both need to work beyond the meme. @slatestarcodex made a very good point in an article [1] I read recently, which explains how both sides are affected:
> "So the one problem is that people have a right not to have
> unfair below-the-belt tactics used to discredit them without
> ever responding to their real arguments. And the other
> problem is that victims of non-representative members of a
> group have the right to complain, even though those complaints
> will unfairly rebound upon the other members of that group."
In nerd-speak what he's saying is that you have a right to be angry with people that are victimising you and need to be able to speak about this, but at the same time when you say it anybody else in that group that didn't victimise you often feels that they are collateral damage (and this is actually the case, the connotations will affect them.) I don't know a solution. I side with you but some activist somewhere will hopefully step up and find a way of talking about groups in a way that doesn't turn all men into misogynists, all germans into nazis, all whites into walking privileges, and all feminists into fat, angry, lesbians (or whatever people say to discredit you.) It clearly isn't fair to individuals.
* * *
I don't think all men are out to get you. I also don't think there's a huge misogyny problem in the industry in comparison to some other industries and cultures I've mixed with. (Perhaps my bad luck.) This is my opinion from listening to the perspectives of the people around me and watching their behaviour around women.
However I do think we have a significant diversity problem and that it's altering the interactions between men and women in the tech industry in a very bad way. We're unfortunately at a point where it's probably most difficult for women. There are enough of you to talk about the problems you face, but not enough that you don't have your environment dominated by us.
I often hear tech men desperately wishing they had more women working in their company. And here is a big problem: it's not because they want to give you economic choices but because of sexual deprivation. I'm sorry if communication is nasty for you right now, I think a more diverse group would stamp out the majority of shitty interactions and we'll get there eventually. Until then some of those men are going to be acting nice trying to get close to you so they can eventually flip to their ulterior motives, while others will be running asshole PUA game on you to see what they can "get away with". Finally of course there'll be a large percentage of misogynistic or bitter (MRA) jerks that want to make you feel small so they can feel good - and unfortunately with the current diversity levels they have a voice. I can imagine it's enraging.
Sorry if I inadvertently said something that clashes with whatever feminism you all share. I just wanted to speak truthfully about how I see everything.
>In this article you were actually all nice and I read right to the bottom. I certainly do find it a lot easier to listen to and agree with people that aren't spilling hatred at me. I never want to feel like I'm giving time to somebody trying to extract some psychological harm as revenge on my gender - whether or not they have a reason to be angry with the status quo, the target market often doesn't last long enough to receive your message.
This is true, yet such a delicate matter. Allow me to digress from the primary issue at hand to share an anecdote.
When I first read about the "check your privilege" controversy at my alma mater [1], my reaction was "we definitely have acute class issues, but by opening in such a confrontational way, we're taking away any possibility of having a constructive dialogue." Delivery so profoundly affects how we respond to the raising of an issue, and can be the difference between an instinctive defensiveness or a considered opening of the psychological gates.
The letter to the editor to the NYT piece puts it well:
"Most disturbing about the “check your privilege” comment to people making arguments at Princeton University is its utility in changing the subject away from their ideas, conservative or liberal. This kind of dismissive labeling needs to be called out for the ad hominem attack that it is. Recognizing it for what it is could undermine what it does, which is to sabotage debate."
It's a delicate line to walk -- being assertive and resolute, yet communicating understanding and cooperation. But if our goal is actual, gradual change for the better, rather than simply feeling good about ourselves for putting someone down or taking the pulpit for ourselves, then I feel that the means we choose must not fail to encourage our intended audience from lending us their ear.
It is so hard though, since each person's interpretation of language differs in so many subtle ways. We can see it in this very thread, where the same given post is interpreted in a wide range of intent.
There is one, but it's extremely drastic: We would have to completely taboo group identification, everywhere, all the time. Everybody would have to be judged solely as an individual, on the individual merits of their case.
Unfortunately, we humans are social animals who evolved to form dominance and status hierarchies, so I strongly doubt this solution would actually be stable.
>I don't think all men are out to get you. I also don't think there's a huge misogyny problem in the industry in comparison to some other industries and cultures I've mixed with. (Perhaps my bad luck.) This is my opinion from listening to the perspectives of the people around me and watching their behaviour around women.
However I do think we have a significant diversity problem and that it's altering the interactions between men and women in the tech industry in a very bad way.
I think this is a fair assessment.
> Finally of course there'll be a large percentage of misogynistic or bitter (MRA) jerks that want to make you feel small so they can feel good - and unfortunately with the current diversity levels they have a voice. I can imagine it's enraging.
This is where the wheels come off, and the bias shows.
There's a large percentage of men who are either misogynistic, and /or MRA jerks? Why aren't feminists characterized as jerks? Why are you painting MRA as jerks, but apologizing to feminists if you've accidentally offended them?
This is where those of us who really hold no bias start getting annoyed about the portrayal of the male gender. Men who care about men's rights are jerks, but women who care about women's rights get apologies if they get offended by reasonable arguments?
And this was done by a male. If the feminists were really honest they'd call this man to task for being biased towards women, and they would tell him they don't want to be held above the other gender either.
The person who posted this goes into depth about the men who have an "ulterior motive" about hiring women. What is this person's ulterior motive for pandering to women in this way?
Why do I have to be ok with being told how terrible my gender is in order to work in this industry anymore?
For the more moderate feminists, consider that. You have a lot of would be allies who get just as tired of being told how terrible they are, and just want you go to away as a result. And folks like the person who posted the above are not helping, they are pandering. A rational person can look at it and think "this isn't right either".
> The last few weeks have been very difficult for women in tech:
> Gurbaksh Chahal - then-CEO of a startup, was allegedly video taped violently attacking a former partner 117 times in 30 mins (He was finally fired some time after this was made public)
My reaction when I first read this: "wow, the guy beat up his company partner AND a woman, at that. What an asshole." Then I clicked through (note: he's still an asshole).
If you actually click through and read this, it is completely unrelated to tech. The partner that was attacked was a girlfriend. Not a company partner at all.
I'm not condoning the behaviour, obviously, but I feel like this article is setting the stage to create a "men vs women" thing in tech. If we spell it out, a full two out of five points the authors use to make their case can be summarized as:
A guy who has a temper problem and runs a tech company attacked a girlfriend who had nothing to do with the tech company. Everyone wanted to see proof.
Why is this particular instance difficult for women in tech? Why not everywhere? Why is this not used as an example of perhaps the stresses that people are under that cause them to behave this way? Is there a link to aggression and CEOs? This would be a better set of questions to take away from that incident than "if you work in tech and you are a woman, will you get beat up on a daily basis?"
> The last thing we want is for people reading this to be put on the defensive
The last thing I want is for people who want to bend the truth this much to be on the front page of HN.
The other stuff you wrote about? All great stuff. No one wants rapey emails. Even if you are fine as hell, you should be free from getting groped or otherwise harassed.
Don't adopt tangentially related stories to create a narrative that is more dire than real life. It just makes me shut off to anything else you want to say and then I don't want to work with you at all.
[Quick prefatory update: HN's throttling algorithm has decided, on the basis of five comments counting this one over the space of the last hour, that I'm "submitting too fast". It'll therefore be a fair while before I am able to respond to the replies I confidently expect this post to provoke.]
You know, at base, I think this is a class issue.
No, I don't mean in the Marxist sense, so all you libertarians who're even now clearing for action and double-shotting your broadsides, hold off a minute and finish reading first.
I mean it's a class issue in the sense that acting like the assholes these women have found themselves forced to put up with, throughout their careers in our industry, is stigmatic of a complete lack of class.
Our industry, after all, revolves around a profession. We arrogate unto ourselves the title of "engineer", despite the complete lack of licensure or regulation commensurate with every other industry whose professionals bear that title. It is therefore incumbent upon us to behave in accordance with our pretensions -- and especially so, I'd argue, given the relative lack of rigor which characterizes our industry as a whole.
Now, maybe I'm just an effete, precious little snowflake. But I have absolutely no desire to associate with people who behave in the fashions described in the open letter published by Manian et al., and in a thousand other places, by a thousand other women, who are themselves remarkable among their fellows in our industry only in that they're courageous enough to tell their stories -- despite the excoriation they know full well will come their way in response -- in hopes of provoking change.
Such people lack class. They lack taste and refinement. If nothing else, they lack the basic good sense to recognize unprofessional behavior in themselves, and to acknowledge the solid reasons why the constraints of professionalism exist at all.
Speaking of which: I've recently participated in a couple of HN discussions around the topic of office politics. From them I have gleaned the impression that a lot of engineers consider office politicking to be something which just gets in the way of getting the job done, and is undesirable therefore.
To engineers who share that opinion, I point out that what we're talking about here also gets in the way. Unless you're willing to declare flat out that women have nothing to offer the industry, or unless you prefer to imagine that the women who've described maltreatment at the hands of their supposedly professional male peers are just lying out of some conspiratorial urge or other, I don't see how you can evaluate this situation any other way.
Anyone who reviews my comment history on HN will recognize quickly enough that I have no particular fondness for feminism as a movement, or for feminist theory, much of which strikes me as ill-argued and overly reliant on an axiomatic infrastructure which is not so sturdy as its proponents seem to believe. Worse, by the lights of feminism per se, someone like Adria Richards, who reacted to a vaguely tasteless joke in so spectacularly ill-considered fashion as to end up getting three people fired, has no cause for reproach.
On the other hand, I see no reason why it's necessary to have any fondness at all for either of those things, when the problem, at its base, is that there are too many assholes in our industry with no sense of how to behave. It's not a question of "how to treat a woman", as though that were some sort of magical separate category. None of the shit we're talking about here is anything you'd be inclined to put up with for one minute, if anyone directed it at you. That it's directed almost universally at women, instead, makes no difference. These behaviors, in themselves, are utterly unacceptable in any even remotely professional context. That they're so widespread in our industry -- indeed, that they're suffered to exist at all in our industry, to say nothing of the degree to which they're actually tolerated -- gives every one of us a bad name.
I don't like that. I refuse to tolerate the company of the people who are responsible for it. I'm not looking to start a movement; I'd be crap at it and there are already far too many of those to begin with. I'm just looking to see those of us in the industry who do have class, who do have taste, behave accordingly with regard to those who don't.
No doubt some of them will realize why they've been excluded, and will learn better. Great! That's what ostracism is for. If they can show they know how to behave themselves like grown adults, they're welcome to join those of us who never needed remedial education on the subject to begin with.
And, equally without doubt, some of them will never figure it out, and, like MRAs, MGTOWs, and others who prefer abandoning society over learning to interact with it, will grow bitter in their increasingly self-inflicted solitude. Those, we're better off without, and to hell with them.
> Feminism is the radical notion that women are people, and that we want to be treated as equals. Don’t let someone else pretend otherwise out of their own misguided notions.
So what do we call the feminists who work to suppress research that shows gender symmetry in domestic violence?
What do we call the feminists who demonize men as rapists, deadbeats, child molesters, and abusers?
What do we call the feminists who lobby against equal parenting rights for fathers and for stripping the right to due process of those accused of domestic or sexual violence?
Feminism is not about equality - that would be called humanism or egalitarianism and would not focus on one specific identity group.
Feminism is the dying ideology of demonizing and subjugating men. Feminism is Marxist ideology maladroitly applied to the genders in order to paint the male gender as sub-human, innately heartless, and evil oppressors, while painting women as perpetually innocent victims.
A movement truly concerned with equality would address areas where human rights are actually unequal such as the outcomes of family courts or no-fault divorce law. Instead we see feminism focusing on non-issues to further their political agenda (#banbossy) or in warping every situation in which a woman gets slighted by an asshole male into proof of "patriarchy".
Such a fascinating article. Let's break this post down:
- Anecdotes used for evidence (check)
- Moral outrage declared (check)
- Call to arms based on emotion (check)
- Appeal to baseless fanatical ideology (check)
- Vilification of a massive segment of the population as homogeneous villians (check)
There really appears to be a massive disconnect between very high intelligence and the ability to accurately observe the real world. Or perhaps in the age when page views reign supreme, rational empirical analysis becomes a vestigial burden from a bygone era.
For you rebels out there who still demand scientific rigor in your articles, please consider an expert's opinion on the matter at your discretion [1].
[+] [-] danshapiro|12 years ago|reply
"Does this mean we’re going to get angry at you if you try to help and get it wrong?"
This fear was something that kept me from speaking out for many years. I'm a guy in tech and I want to see change occur but I'm ignorant about these things. I don't truly understand the challenges that women face in our industry. And because I'm relatively ignorant, I worry that I might say something that was intended as supportive but winds up contributing to the problem: white-knighting, disempowering, calling attention to something that the person affected wanted to leave alone.
Personally, I've come to terms that I'm going to try my best and risk screwing up occasionally. It's scary but I think it's better than the alternative of sitting by and doing nothing. But it makes me feel a lot better to hear that I'm not alone in worrying about this.
[+] [-] taybin|12 years ago|reply
Edited to fix pronoun.
[+] [-] dstaley|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vezzy-fnord|12 years ago|reply
Actually, I'd like to address this paragraph:
Feminism is not a dirty word. Feminism is the radical notion that women are people, and that we want to be treated as equals. Don’t let someone else pretend otherwise out of their own misguided notions.
The author(s) repeat a very common cliche, and insist on this as the one true definition of feminism. Yet in reality, feminism is splintered, divided into many schools, disagrees on fundamental issues (sex-positivity versus sex-negativity and transgender inclusion versus transgender exclusion, most notably) and is not a coherent movement. The same applies for virtually all ideologies.
Some will repeat that quote, some will say "gender equality", others will go for "women's liberation", "abolition of X concept considered problematic", "separatism" or a variety of other reasons.
Which school do we adopt? Why? How will it change things? Is feminism really that seamless of an ideology that it is the one true way to fix things?
[+] [-] kevingadd|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] _bfhp|12 years ago|reply
Presenting a biased view to an audience new to a subject is dishonest. You're using selected terms to groom the readers to the side with the "schools of thought" you agree with. I could use the terms "neoliberalism verses class analysis and genderism verses gender criticism" and we'd still be referring to the same things. Of course, I would never use those terms at HN in the way you used yours, because I value real discourse.
Your central point is of course correct: "feminism" is an umbrella term (heck that's the first sentence on the Wikipedia page). Using ignorance of that fact as an opportunity to propagandize is shameful.
[+] [-] fred_durst|12 years ago|reply
In this industry I've met a lot of really great people, and unfortunately a ton of arrogant, egotistical, pretentious and aggressive jerks. I've felt like crap being around those people tons of times.
Sometimes they say mean things about women, sometimes about liberals or republicans or people from India or making fun of someone's Github pull request to an open source project. I've heard things that smell of Social Darwinism. All kinds of junk. But all of it seems to come from the same jerks. It doesn't seem like there is like the "I hate women" jerk and the "Stupid people deserve poverty" etc. It seems like most hateful jerks just hate everyone.
It seems in tech, people's positions in companies are very much based on a particular skill or having a bunch of money. And very little to do with whether or not they are a jerk. So maybe this is just that we end up with a higher concentration of general jerks? Also, right now this industry is where the money is, and that always has a tendency to up the jerk ratio as well.
[+] [-] optimusclimb|12 years ago|reply
My experiences related to women in tech:
* Everywhere I've worked, it's been a boys club, but we'd LOVE to hire more women. Frankly, hiring is hard in general. When women have come in to interview, I can't speak for others - but I know in the back of my head, my biggest concern is, "Make sure you interview with the same standards as anyone else, but make sure you don't have some subconscious bias because she's a she."
* There are probably good female engineers, and not so good ones. One of the few "not so good ones" I know of (doesn't mean she'll never improve, just at the time) had to be super carefully managed out over a long time. There was no unceremonious firing, that's for sure.
* Is there even a "women in tech" problem? Or is it just "women in the workforce, no matter the industry"? The kinds of ridiculous behavior women are describing in these articles sound to me like they could happen in finance, sales, marketing, HR, or anywhere.
* On any of the open source mailing lists I'm on, I've never seen anything remotely close to, "Your pull request sucks you whre, try again". Are these just the mythical basement dwelling trolls of Slashdot lore reaching out privately via email?
Most of the engineers I know in tech are decent, upstanding guys. If anything, I feel like if any of us was pulled aside by a female co-worker and she described shenanigans of the sort I read about in these articles, we'd probably jump to their defense in a heart beat, almost maybe too easily.
What have the rest of you experienced?
*
Edit: I left the above (my OP) in tact. After re-reading it, and some responses, it's become clear to me that it gives off an air of, "I don't believe these reports", and that's not really what I intended.
I suppose my main point was that no, I haven't experienced it, and I think that's exactly what these women are saying - Just because you haven't seen it, doesn't mean it's not there. So really, despite getting some up votes, I think I missed the boat.
I was curious if others on my (the male) side have in fact seen it, but what does that tell us? Probably not much.
[+] [-] epeus|12 years ago|reply
So how does this fit with your "Most of the engineers I know in tech are decent, upstanding guys." - it fits perfectly. Clearly you know some who aren't decent. It only takes one to harass, and he can harass a large number of women; in fact the pattern is commonly to try it on with every woman, but in a way that leaves it as he said/she said.
This is why "not all men do this" is such a weak-minded response. Don't let it slide. Your second guessing of women in your first point, and your "too easily" in the last indicate the problem too. Women who report harassment often get laid off or managed out afterwards, even when they have got the harasser fired. It is a very high risk thing for them to do, and your "not all men" attitude is a key way that harassers are sheltered.
[+] [-] anildash|12 years ago|reply
* "We have this problem with our iOS app."
* "I use Android and have never seen this. Any other Android users encounter this?"
[+] [-] steveklabnik|12 years ago|reply
Generally, when I say "women have informal networks where they share stories of abuse to help other women be cautious around certain actors", there are two reactions: A nodding head, or a 'what the fuck?'
[+] [-] mbillie1|12 years ago|reply
> Most of the engineers I know in tech are decent, upstanding guys. If anything, I feel like if any of us was pulled aside by a female co-worker and she described shenanigans of the sort I read about in these articles, we'd probably jump to their defense in a heart beat, almost maybe too easily.
So here's the thing: most guys everywhere are decent, upstanding guys. Don't think that MVC is writing this to slander decent, upstanding guys. But being decent and upstanding does not make you aware of all forms of harassment and discrimination, and you can still do harm without meaning to or being aware that you're doing it. It's important to talk about the experiences of women in tech, to talk with women in tech and understand what their concerns are, not because they want to beat you over the head for being a bad person, but because you just don't see it. I can never have the experiences of a woman in tech - I'm not one. That's why it's so important to listen to what they are saying.
[+] [-] sequoia|12 years ago|reply
Why do you need a "male reader" to confirm this to you? Your question reads thus: 'I can't believe this if I only hear it from a woman-- is there a man in the audience who can confirm this?'
To turn it around a bit, why do you find these stories unbelievable & why do you need a man to confirm their veracity?
[+] [-] agentultra|12 years ago|reply
Yes.
White, privileged male.
I was attending Pycon 2013 in Santa, Clara. I had just spent the lunch hour with a good friend and his acquaintance, X. As we were leaving X decided it was an appropriate time to quietly share his views about women in tech with me. I was mortified at that moment and promptly exited the conversation without addressing X's comments to me.
I've felt terrible about that exchange ever since.
[+] [-] jdp23|12 years ago|reply
If you're not seeing it, it's statistically highly unlikely that you're not coming into contact with it. Reading and understanding feminist perspectives can help you become more observant. Hacker News provides plenty of opportunities for practice identifying hostile-to-women comments.
If you're not hearing about it through word of mouth, then it could be that you don't talk to a lot of women in tech, or don't talk to them about these issues, or you aren't fully hearing what they're saying. It could also be that they don't feel comfortable in discussing them with you. Look at your language and behavior and think about what could be sending unintentional messages that cause people to steer clear from this discussion. How many can you spot in this post, and in your reply to Anil?
[+] [-] lotsofmangos|12 years ago|reply
This kind of idiocy is relatively common in UK executives, as a fairly large chunk of them went to exclusive private boys schools and so never had to really deal with women as equal peers until adulthood.
[+] [-] forgottenpass|12 years ago|reply
I've been out of college for about 6 years now. The worst I even encountered professionally was a joke shared in a group of 3 or 4 dudes about women drivers. I remember it well because it was so incongruous with everything else I've seen. There was also a booth babe at a conference I went to, and everyone I spoke with (including staff) considered it at the very least tacky. There were blog posts about harassment at that conference, but I never witnessed any nor did anyone in my group of friends, acquaintances and colleagues attending ever speak of being uncomfortable there.
I hear about more harassment towards the women I'm friends with after any given night of drinking at bars than the total I've ever heard from them about work.
[+] [-] dpritchett|12 years ago|reply
The more overtly unwelcoming behavior seems to crop up outside of the office at networking events and conferences (and IRC and twitter and the bottom of this page).
I will point out that of the various direct and second-level managers I've had since entering the industry in the early 2000s only three (out of a total of fourteen) were minorities.
[+] [-] swombat|12 years ago|reply
I still don't like the ultra-feminist movement though. Hate doesn't achieve much good.
[+] [-] worksaf|12 years ago|reply
I also know of at least 1 woman who if she was a man would have been fired long ago yet she stays on because managers are basically afraid to fire her.
I'm not saying these problems don't exist, I just find it hard to believe they are as widespread as is claimed. I know many women in tech and not one of them had a problem finding a job which is a good thing. This is my personal experience so make of it what you will.
[+] [-] IsaacSchlueter|12 years ago|reply
I'm guessing that you've seen it, too. Probably you didn't notice it, because it wasn't directed at you, and everyone in the room was also pretending it didn't happen.
[+] [-] Fomite|12 years ago|reply
More than that, I have the good sense to take my female colleagues at their word.
[+] [-] jacquesgt|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gurkendoktor|12 years ago|reply
> Make sure you interview with the same standards as anyone else
Reading these open letters, isn't that The Wrong Thing? "Promote the fuck out of diversity" (from the OP) sounds as if we should strongly prefer female programmers, with a bigger focus on a healthy team than on skills alone. (Also related: http://readwrite.com/2014/01/24/github-meritocracy-rug)
I'm genuinely curious because my experience is the same as yours (= nothing bad happened), but it dawns on me that I am now considered a part of the problem. :|
[+] [-] gamacodre|12 years ago|reply
Mostly, though, the shops I've worked in haven't had these issues, at least not anywhere that I could see them. Women seem to have been well integrated into our teams when there were any.
I think that a lot of the behavior mentioned in the letter is stuff that no-one wants to work with. Guys who will act weird with a co-worker because they're (female/minority/disabled/whatever) are good people to avoid for professional reasons; it implies numerous faults in character and understanding, and no good excuse for them.
[+] [-] unknown|12 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] unknown|12 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] sama|12 years ago|reply
it's obvious to anyone really paying attention the tech industry (and probably most other industries) has been extremely unfair to women. writing like this--clear on the problem and supportive of people who want to help--is important, but it's also important to remember that we all collectively have to act to actually change things.
[+] [-] collyw|12 years ago|reply
One place I worked has a newspaper article on the wall about the high numbers of women hey hired. There were still only 3 on a floor of around 100 staff. All the places I have worked they have been treated as equals.
[+] [-] steveklabnik|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] _bfhp|12 years ago|reply
Do you see what you're doing here? Do you even realize? Your comment reads: "THESE women are actually thoughtful, not like those bra-burning man-hating diatribes that I've come across from those crazy women in tech. If only all women were this calm and docile when talking about this subject." Maybe that wasn't the precise thoughts behind it, but it comes off as that condescending to everyone (particularly the women) who don't fit to your standards. You are saying "if you're going to talk about gender in tech, or even gender at all, be like these women or I don't care/you're crazy."
Every "piece", whatever the tone, is written for specific reasons, and you'd rather take the lazy route and rank them as "more/less thoughtful" than actually try to understand those reasons. Hey, I agree, there are some articles and such on gender-in-tech out there that could make points more strongly, could be tailored to their audience better, etc etc. You should respond to those with honest, interested questions. Not this. Edit: from the actual article itself:
"Being nice doesn’t work. We’ve been nice. Some of us that have written down our stories here have even been paraded around by men in the industry for how nice we’ve been in trying to address the social problems in tech as a way to discredit more vocal, astutely firm feminist voices. We don’t like this, we’ve never liked it, and it needs to stop."
Parading this article as "more reasonable" is the same dynamic; don't settle for the speech that you're comfortable with. Go back and try to understand why the other, louder speech made you uncomfortable.
[+] [-] dominotw|12 years ago|reply
"This is NOT unrelated to the fact that YCombinator built Hacker News, a platform that has consistently terrorized women in tech for years."
https://twitter.com/shanley/status/460566412226883584
[+] [-] escape_goat|12 years ago|reply
"We are angry with the way we are treated as women, by men. We are angry with the way we see other women being treated by men. Even though you might not personally have treated us like this, we know that you are a man, like other men, and we hold you responsible for what has happened to us and what we have seen. You have power, and we don't. It is by your choice and negligence as men that we are powerless and demeaned. You are not innocent, even though you think you are. We aren't interested in your opinion. You don't know anything. You need to change to make us not angry."
The reason I think this might be interesting is that I know (re-reading the letter, especially) that THIS IS NOT WHAT THE LETTER SAYS. For one thing, it is far from the only thing discussed in the letter; more importantly, however, I don't think this interpretation is all that fair a reading of what the authors have actually written. I know that it's a distorted version of what they intended to convey, and it might not even represent a correct interpretation of how any of them feel.
So why is this my impression? Your own conclusions are welcome, of course. You're free to dismiss me out of hand. But for myself, I think that it has to do with the confluence of two factors. Firstly, I don't really feel that I have a lot of power over women. Actually, I feel like women have a lot of power over me. My life is inextricably entangled with the lives of women, and it would be a meaningless, barren hell were this not so. But instead, and secondly, I am being told how separate I actually am --- and always will be --- from women. I am being told that women are not being treated as people by writers who go on to talk about women, and men, and the relationship of victimization between the two, without hardly a word about people, and how people treat each other, and how some people come to treat other people differently, and what we can do about it. Instead, I feel, I am being told that I am wrong to treat people as 'women' by people who are using the power of that identity as leverage to demand my compliance.
If feminism is the radical notion that women are people, then a feminism that is not about people is radically flawed. I don't like people having power over me, either. I don't like being treated as the avatar of someone's fears, pain, and disappointment, either. I don't like not being treated as if I'm me, really a person, either.
This is all off the cuff, and I have no time to be writing it, but that's my experience, and my reaction, and thanks for reading it.
[+] [-] hkmurakami|12 years ago|reply
I thought that attending these would help me in various ways (all the words I can come up with fail to fit my sentiments so I'm going to leave it vague like this), but the link [1] doesn't lead to any resource where I can find out about future such events (presumably they'd be held at Stripe since Kat, the host, is employed there). Does anyone know where I can find this info?
[1] https://stripe.com/events/lightningpies
[+] [-] jack-r-abbit|12 years ago|reply
There is easily dozens (hundreds?) of "fights" that I could get into everyday but I don't. I'm not really a confrontational person. Please don't take it personally when this fight is also one I don't get into.
[+] [-] GHFigs|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dominotw|12 years ago|reply
We are going to respond my making generailized hate speech towards all men in the industry.
But seriously, are people expecting 100% support from all sections of society? Is that even a realistic expectation?
[+] [-] bowlofpetunias|12 years ago|reply
It falls in the same category as porn. It's a valid debate, but it's a separate debate.
[+] [-] 226jg5|12 years ago|reply
I am a white male in my early 30s. I'm strongly libertarian and do everything in my power to make sure that people have the opportunity to work in a safe and non-threatening environment. I go out of my way to make sure that people who do not share my "type A" personality are included in group activities, and spend a good deal of energy monitoring and adjusting my body language to be inviting without being aggressive. This in particular doesn't come naturally to me, and as an introvert, is quite exhausting.
The one time I attempted to work with the the social circle that authors and maintains Model-View-Culture, I was met with the single most obvious and aggressive display of sexism I've encountered in my professional career. They used gender-based names to refer to me in a very derogatory and degrading way, and proceeded to go through my social profiles and mock my private life and family - because I had the audacity to attempt to engage them in a conversation while being male.
> Does this mean we’re going to get angry at you if you try to help and get it wrong? > This is an a fear that has come to light through side channels. Men know there is a problem, and they’re worried the women they know are on the defensive - especially when reading a direct call to action like this one.
> They want to help but they’re worried if they don’t get everything just right, someone will chastise them into oblivion.
No, I'm not worried that I'll be chastised - I'm worried that my gender will result in a situation where any action (or inaction) on my part will result in my being ostracized from the professional community to which I've devoted a large part of my adult life. Further, I base this fear on my own actual experience and the direct observation of the experiences of others.
> The people signing this document are patient when they see someone trying to make a difference.
Perhaps. To be fair, the people who lashed out at me are not listed on this document. They are members of the same social circle though, and the thought of putting my career and my family's livelihood on the line to try and solve problems that do not directly impact me is terrifying. I am supposed to trust them not to dox me, spread that information to their entire social circle, then use it to publicly shame me?
http://modelviewculture.com/pieces/investigation-online-gath...
I want to help. I really do. I have a wife, daughters, and my own mother is a long-time feminist. I consider myself a feminist, though not of the radical far-left variety they practice. As much as I've been preached to about how feminism is hostile because they are not in a position of power, they've wielded that power arbitrarily and willfully when they found themselves able to do so.
The only way to win this game is not to play.
[+] [-] mreiland|12 years ago|reply
Like you, my mother was also strongly feminist. She had a very strong personality, and I grew up being a "feminist".
It wasn't until I got older and started seeing the movement as a whole that I started distancing myself from it.
Because I agree that wrongs need to be righted, and that women have every right to equality as men.
I just don't agree that means I should be ashamed of my gender, or that I'm automatically an asshole.
[+] [-] lhnz|12 years ago|reply
I agree that people should speak up if you see something wrong even if they just say something small, but I reckon it will be hard/impossible to educate all to do so. However if those that notice something is up speak up then it will be a better place for all of us. And for those that notice but are too shy to kick up a fuss, there is always more subtle signalling that can be used: tilt your body away from the aggressor, go quiet and start a conversation with somebody outside the group - disinterest, and "awkwardness" can be powerful.
Going slightly off-topic here just to say something that I care about. Something that has been quite difficult for me to read in other feminist pieces/tweets is the meme "not all men" which is often quickly followed by "ALL MEN!". It might be annoying to have guys constantly interrupting to raise themselves onto a little pedestal as caring gentlemen, but this is creating a wall between two groups and we both need to work beyond the meme. @slatestarcodex made a very good point in an article [1] I read recently, which explains how both sides are affected: In nerd-speak what he's saying is that you have a right to be angry with people that are victimising you and need to be able to speak about this, but at the same time when you say it anybody else in that group that didn't victimise you often feels that they are collateral damage (and this is actually the case, the connotations will affect them.) I don't know a solution. I side with you but some activist somewhere will hopefully step up and find a way of talking about groups in a way that doesn't turn all men into misogynists, all germans into nazis, all whites into walking privileges, and all feminists into fat, angry, lesbians (or whatever people say to discredit you.) It clearly isn't fair to individuals. I don't think all men are out to get you. I also don't think there's a huge misogyny problem in the industry in comparison to some other industries and cultures I've mixed with. (Perhaps my bad luck.) This is my opinion from listening to the perspectives of the people around me and watching their behaviour around women.However I do think we have a significant diversity problem and that it's altering the interactions between men and women in the tech industry in a very bad way. We're unfortunately at a point where it's probably most difficult for women. There are enough of you to talk about the problems you face, but not enough that you don't have your environment dominated by us.
I often hear tech men desperately wishing they had more women working in their company. And here is a big problem: it's not because they want to give you economic choices but because of sexual deprivation. I'm sorry if communication is nasty for you right now, I think a more diverse group would stamp out the majority of shitty interactions and we'll get there eventually. Until then some of those men are going to be acting nice trying to get close to you so they can eventually flip to their ulterior motives, while others will be running asshole PUA game on you to see what they can "get away with". Finally of course there'll be a large percentage of misogynistic or bitter (MRA) jerks that want to make you feel small so they can feel good - and unfortunately with the current diversity levels they have a voice. I can imagine it's enraging.
Sorry if I inadvertently said something that clashes with whatever feminism you all share. I just wanted to speak truthfully about how I see everything.
[1] http://slatestarcodex.com/2014/05/12/weak-men-are-superweapo...
[+] [-] hkmurakami|12 years ago|reply
This is true, yet such a delicate matter. Allow me to digress from the primary issue at hand to share an anecdote.
When I first read about the "check your privilege" controversy at my alma mater [1], my reaction was "we definitely have acute class issues, but by opening in such a confrontational way, we're taking away any possibility of having a constructive dialogue." Delivery so profoundly affects how we respond to the raising of an issue, and can be the difference between an instinctive defensiveness or a considered opening of the psychological gates.
The letter to the editor to the NYT piece puts it well:
"Most disturbing about the “check your privilege” comment to people making arguments at Princeton University is its utility in changing the subject away from their ideas, conservative or liberal. This kind of dismissive labeling needs to be called out for the ad hominem attack that it is. Recognizing it for what it is could undermine what it does, which is to sabotage debate."
It's a delicate line to walk -- being assertive and resolute, yet communicating understanding and cooperation. But if our goal is actual, gradual change for the better, rather than simply feeling good about ourselves for putting someone down or taking the pulpit for ourselves, then I feel that the means we choose must not fail to encourage our intended audience from lending us their ear.
It is so hard though, since each person's interpretation of language differs in so many subtle ways. We can see it in this very thread, where the same given post is interpreted in a wide range of intent.
[1] http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/03/nyregion/at-princeton-priv...
[2] http://www.nytimes.com/2014/05/12/opinion/a-hot-topic-at-pri...
[+] [-] pdonis|12 years ago|reply
There is one, but it's extremely drastic: We would have to completely taboo group identification, everywhere, all the time. Everybody would have to be judged solely as an individual, on the individual merits of their case.
Unfortunately, we humans are social animals who evolved to form dominance and status hierarchies, so I strongly doubt this solution would actually be stable.
[+] [-] mreiland|12 years ago|reply
I think this is a fair assessment.
> Finally of course there'll be a large percentage of misogynistic or bitter (MRA) jerks that want to make you feel small so they can feel good - and unfortunately with the current diversity levels they have a voice. I can imagine it's enraging.
This is where the wheels come off, and the bias shows.
There's a large percentage of men who are either misogynistic, and /or MRA jerks? Why aren't feminists characterized as jerks? Why are you painting MRA as jerks, but apologizing to feminists if you've accidentally offended them?
This is where those of us who really hold no bias start getting annoyed about the portrayal of the male gender. Men who care about men's rights are jerks, but women who care about women's rights get apologies if they get offended by reasonable arguments?
And this was done by a male. If the feminists were really honest they'd call this man to task for being biased towards women, and they would tell him they don't want to be held above the other gender either.
The person who posted this goes into depth about the men who have an "ulterior motive" about hiring women. What is this person's ulterior motive for pandering to women in this way?
Why do I have to be ok with being told how terrible my gender is in order to work in this industry anymore?
For the more moderate feminists, consider that. You have a lot of would be allies who get just as tired of being told how terrible they are, and just want you go to away as a result. And folks like the person who posted the above are not helping, they are pandering. A rational person can look at it and think "this isn't right either".
[+] [-] cheez|12 years ago|reply
> The last few weeks have been very difficult for women in tech:
> Gurbaksh Chahal - then-CEO of a startup, was allegedly video taped violently attacking a former partner 117 times in 30 mins (He was finally fired some time after this was made public)
My reaction when I first read this: "wow, the guy beat up his company partner AND a woman, at that. What an asshole." Then I clicked through (note: he's still an asshole).
If you actually click through and read this, it is completely unrelated to tech. The partner that was attacked was a girlfriend. Not a company partner at all.
I'm not condoning the behaviour, obviously, but I feel like this article is setting the stage to create a "men vs women" thing in tech. If we spell it out, a full two out of five points the authors use to make their case can be summarized as:
A guy who has a temper problem and runs a tech company attacked a girlfriend who had nothing to do with the tech company. Everyone wanted to see proof.
Why is this particular instance difficult for women in tech? Why not everywhere? Why is this not used as an example of perhaps the stresses that people are under that cause them to behave this way? Is there a link to aggression and CEOs? This would be a better set of questions to take away from that incident than "if you work in tech and you are a woman, will you get beat up on a daily basis?"
> The last thing we want is for people reading this to be put on the defensive
The last thing I want is for people who want to bend the truth this much to be on the front page of HN.
The other stuff you wrote about? All great stuff. No one wants rapey emails. Even if you are fine as hell, you should be free from getting groped or otherwise harassed.
Don't adopt tangentially related stories to create a narrative that is more dire than real life. It just makes me shut off to anything else you want to say and then I don't want to work with you at all.
[+] [-] dang|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] aaronem|12 years ago|reply
You know, at base, I think this is a class issue.
No, I don't mean in the Marxist sense, so all you libertarians who're even now clearing for action and double-shotting your broadsides, hold off a minute and finish reading first.
I mean it's a class issue in the sense that acting like the assholes these women have found themselves forced to put up with, throughout their careers in our industry, is stigmatic of a complete lack of class.
Our industry, after all, revolves around a profession. We arrogate unto ourselves the title of "engineer", despite the complete lack of licensure or regulation commensurate with every other industry whose professionals bear that title. It is therefore incumbent upon us to behave in accordance with our pretensions -- and especially so, I'd argue, given the relative lack of rigor which characterizes our industry as a whole.
Now, maybe I'm just an effete, precious little snowflake. But I have absolutely no desire to associate with people who behave in the fashions described in the open letter published by Manian et al., and in a thousand other places, by a thousand other women, who are themselves remarkable among their fellows in our industry only in that they're courageous enough to tell their stories -- despite the excoriation they know full well will come their way in response -- in hopes of provoking change.
Such people lack class. They lack taste and refinement. If nothing else, they lack the basic good sense to recognize unprofessional behavior in themselves, and to acknowledge the solid reasons why the constraints of professionalism exist at all.
Speaking of which: I've recently participated in a couple of HN discussions around the topic of office politics. From them I have gleaned the impression that a lot of engineers consider office politicking to be something which just gets in the way of getting the job done, and is undesirable therefore.
To engineers who share that opinion, I point out that what we're talking about here also gets in the way. Unless you're willing to declare flat out that women have nothing to offer the industry, or unless you prefer to imagine that the women who've described maltreatment at the hands of their supposedly professional male peers are just lying out of some conspiratorial urge or other, I don't see how you can evaluate this situation any other way.
Anyone who reviews my comment history on HN will recognize quickly enough that I have no particular fondness for feminism as a movement, or for feminist theory, much of which strikes me as ill-argued and overly reliant on an axiomatic infrastructure which is not so sturdy as its proponents seem to believe. Worse, by the lights of feminism per se, someone like Adria Richards, who reacted to a vaguely tasteless joke in so spectacularly ill-considered fashion as to end up getting three people fired, has no cause for reproach.
On the other hand, I see no reason why it's necessary to have any fondness at all for either of those things, when the problem, at its base, is that there are too many assholes in our industry with no sense of how to behave. It's not a question of "how to treat a woman", as though that were some sort of magical separate category. None of the shit we're talking about here is anything you'd be inclined to put up with for one minute, if anyone directed it at you. That it's directed almost universally at women, instead, makes no difference. These behaviors, in themselves, are utterly unacceptable in any even remotely professional context. That they're so widespread in our industry -- indeed, that they're suffered to exist at all in our industry, to say nothing of the degree to which they're actually tolerated -- gives every one of us a bad name.
I don't like that. I refuse to tolerate the company of the people who are responsible for it. I'm not looking to start a movement; I'd be crap at it and there are already far too many of those to begin with. I'm just looking to see those of us in the industry who do have class, who do have taste, behave accordingly with regard to those who don't.
No doubt some of them will realize why they've been excluded, and will learn better. Great! That's what ostracism is for. If they can show they know how to behave themselves like grown adults, they're welcome to join those of us who never needed remedial education on the subject to begin with.
And, equally without doubt, some of them will never figure it out, and, like MRAs, MGTOWs, and others who prefer abandoning society over learning to interact with it, will grow bitter in their increasingly self-inflicted solitude. Those, we're better off without, and to hell with them.
[+] [-] unknown|12 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] arzugula|12 years ago|reply
So what do we call the feminists who work to suppress research that shows gender symmetry in domestic violence?
What do we call the feminists who demonize men as rapists, deadbeats, child molesters, and abusers?
What do we call the feminists who lobby against equal parenting rights for fathers and for stripping the right to due process of those accused of domestic or sexual violence?
Feminism is not about equality - that would be called humanism or egalitarianism and would not focus on one specific identity group.
Feminism is the dying ideology of demonizing and subjugating men. Feminism is Marxist ideology maladroitly applied to the genders in order to paint the male gender as sub-human, innately heartless, and evil oppressors, while painting women as perpetually innocent victims.
A movement truly concerned with equality would address areas where human rights are actually unequal such as the outcomes of family courts or no-fault divorce law. Instead we see feminism focusing on non-issues to further their political agenda (#banbossy) or in warping every situation in which a woman gets slighted by an asshole male into proof of "patriarchy".
[+] [-] FD3SA|12 years ago|reply
- Anecdotes used for evidence (check)
- Moral outrage declared (check)
- Call to arms based on emotion (check)
- Appeal to baseless fanatical ideology (check)
- Vilification of a massive segment of the population as homogeneous villians (check)
There really appears to be a massive disconnect between very high intelligence and the ability to accurately observe the real world. Or perhaps in the age when page views reign supreme, rational empirical analysis becomes a vestigial burden from a bygone era.
For you rebels out there who still demand scientific rigor in your articles, please consider an expert's opinion on the matter at your discretion [1].
1. http://edge.org/memberbio/helena_cronin