Complaints about the author, methods, prior art etc aside... I've got a lathe here from the late 80's that has CNC. It has tool depth sensing via electrical contact and a bed leveling algorithm. Taking stuff that has existed for 30 years that anyone with community college level machine shop training knows about, tacking "with the 3d printerz!1!!" on and running to the patent office is a giant dick move on the same level as all of the "on the intertubes" patents we've been dealing with.
They may have great intentions. Who knows, but boy-howdy if it walks like a troll...
Same thing with networking, queueing etc. It has existed since the dawn of desktop printers, but now that they add "3D" to the name, it's considered a novel invention? The patent system is flawed.
The author claims prior art based on things that were published in 2013, but Makerbot filed their provisional application on October 29, 2012. This also explains why the patent was filed October 29 of 2013, as that would be the last date they can file.
I don't really care if you hate the patent system, or hate that somebody wants to treat 3D printing as a traditional business instead of altruistically open sourcing all the things. To publicly lambaste a competitor through disinformation just because they don't share your personal values is about as classless as it gets. This is open-and-shut witch-hunt territory.
First, from elsewhere in this thread, from April 23rd, 2012, there is this auto-leveling technique, which probes by applying a slight current to detect contact:
Second, I disagree with your priorities and/or point of view on this, and I think it might be anti-hacker. It must be at once obvious to everyone that desktop 3D printing is both vital to the future and currently a "cottage" industry. What matters more: the future, or our personal notions of what's classy?
I feel that any action intended as a land-grab for enormous swathes of intellectual territory in an industry so driven by, and amenable to, individual invention and modification, rightly deserves the opprobrium of all hacker types.
Trying to patent compensating for a non-level bed in 3D printers is a jerk move. You could provide a similar defensive moat by just publishing your work, without stifling any of your peers in this infant industry.
Edit: when I said "priorities", I was talking about specifically about prioritizing being classy over protecting a nascent industry, and how that could be anti-garage-innovator. Re-reading my comment, though, I guess it sounds a bit more personal, which wasn't my intent!
Where do you find the provisional application date? I read the post, and skimmed the linked patent application but never would have found that in the patent application while skimming the filing.
I'm glad that you did find it - that is indeed very important information to take into account.
One note though - your tone and suggestion of "an open-and-shut witch-hunt" is very aggressive and makes me instantly think that you have ulterior motives. No idea if you do, but I feel like you were jumping to conclusions about the intent of the author. Can you imagine a scenario where the author didn't know about the provisional application? That's not an excuse, but changes the scenario from disinformation to misinformation and witch-hunt to mistake.
Numerous patents seem to reference that provisional:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/result.html?sort=relevance&...
I am not sure how to get a look at the original provisional application, but it looks like these are extensions on top of the original provision patent application, which could be just about anything, since the other related patents include things like
The thing is, this stuff has been hashed out in the open source community before Makerbot filed their provisional, hence it was already obvious to anyone acquainted with the art.
This whole thing is stupid. Leveling is a problem, "autoing" it is not patent worthy. Lots of things have some solution applied to them to "auto". This is a case of patenting a problem, not the solution. And if the solution (sensors and actuators) have been applied elsewhere, then there isn't anything patentable here. Move on, solve harder problems.
The Stewart Platform [0] was invented back in the early 50s, I could apply an SP to any leveling problem. I shouldn't be able to patent leveling anything at this point. Leveling is a solved problem. Putting a computer in a feedback loop is a solved problem, one should not be able to patent feedback loops or computers or trivial applications of both.
I'm completely ignorant here, but when I read a "slew of patents" have been filed, two things come to mind:
1. A startup that is trying to raise some funding is filing the patents as a requisite of an investor (it sucks, but it's part of the startup/investor game)
2. A startup that was acquired by a larger company and the acquirer is trying to protect its shiny new purchase
I noticed Makerbot was acquired by Stratasys last year so point #2 seems likely. These filings are likely to be more on the behalf of Stratasys than Makerbot. Again, I'm not saying it's right, just saying it isn't surprising.
> 1. A startup that is trying to raise some funding is filing the patents as a requisite of an investor (it sucks, but it's part of the startup/investor game)
> 2. A startup that was acquired by a larger company and the acquirer is trying to protect its shiny new purchase
In particular, it seems far too common for a patent troll to see a company that just got funded or acquired and figure they can extort some of the new funding. So it makes perfect sense for a newly acquired or invested-in company to spend some of the new funding they just got to set up a small stack of defensive patents or publications.
That said, for both of those cases it would potentially be cheaper and equally effective to file defensive publications rather than patents.
Now that the USPTO is a first-to-file system, they may have felt pressure to file for defensive patents before someone else did so offensively and came after them.
I started working on bld3r, because i was unsatisfied with thingiverse (owned by makerbot/stratasys). I'd like to see the community put a stop to a potential facebook-like hold on 3D model sharing learning since we are learning makerbot is very rapidly changing their culture from open hardware cultural icons, to an anti-social corporate subsidiary.
I'll hit some fairly basic bullet points:
* We are a functional 3D printing repo and social network, and in the top 3 alternatives to thingiverse.
* We are built on google's app engine, so you can take our site and use it as a base for building your own social network and launching it in a couple hours or a couple of days.
* One major feature is that you do not have to upload 3d models to us. You can if you want, but you don't have to. We'd actually prefer if people host files elsewhere (via dropbox, github, tpb, etc., even thingiverse). You can then submit a link to your object and it'll appear on our front page crowd-sourced with reddit-style voting.
* We do not sell 3d printers, so if you do, we'd love to give you some free advertising while we grow our site. We are currently working on a contest feature, so within a month, if you want to host a contest, you can design what you want on our site, and launch it to promote your printers (Lulzbot was the first of such manufactures to do so, and we are very grateful to them for the notable bump in traffic and name recognition).
There are many more things we do to prevent even ourselves from exploiting a network effect in 3D repos.
We are not without our warts right now (this is neither of our main occupations, it's just a labor of love to keep 3D printing open), but please give the site a visit if you're interested. I live in SF and my co-founder lives NYC. We'd both be happy to get a beer and talk about the site if anyone is interested in using it as a base for another open social network.
Terence is doing something vitally important. 3D printing is likely to be a "next big thing" and we have a duty to ensure the technology stays as open as possible.
As a community, we're lucky that ideas like 'open source' and 'freedom to tinker' are highly valued. Each of us has benefited tremendously from that commitment. But it wasn't an accident. Hackers, scientists and engineers have been fighting mini-battles over those ideas since the days of the 60s counter-culture.
When I stop and think about it, I feel a lot of gratitude and respect for our colleagues who set the precedent for an open Internet so early on. We have an obligation to pay that precedent forward so that technologies like 3D printing and DIY Bio can develop into vibrant ecosystems like the Internet.
1. Patents are very VERY specific. Someone can have a patent for Thing A and you can make Thing B that is quite similar to Thing A, with just a few minor adjustments, and it is not an infringement. This is why there are tons of patents out there that describe pretty much the same thing, with very minute differences.
The takeaway is: just because Makerbot / Stratasys is getting a patent on autoleveling does not mean no one else can do autoleveling. It just means they cannot do it the exact same way.
2. A patent troll is an entity that has a patent portfolio, but has no actual products related to anything in that portfolio. They make their money by suing people (or bullying little guys into settling out of court).
Makerbot / Stratasys makes 3D printers. It is not trolling for them to file patents related to 3D printing technology. You might think the patent system is broken or feel that patent filing is not in the spirit of open source hardware (valid points which I personally share), but it is not trolling.
So, let's not undermine the legitimacy of those criticisms by conflating one particular (arguably douchey) business strategy with patent trolling (another, unarguably douchey strategy).
Also, the idea of bed leveling using contact force and other methods was discussed in the reprap forums at least as far back as January 2008 - http://forums.reprap.org/read.php?1,8028
This is why patents like this are annoying. The idea of automated bed leveling wasn't novel by the time this patent had been filed, and doing it with force measurement is an obvious method to someone interested in automated bed leveling. There's nothing novel about doing bed leveling with force measurement.
Careful - Makerbot's parent company has a recent history of stretching 3D printing patents to sue over things that are obviously and fundamentally different from what was actually patented.
How do you avoid the chilling effects of patents existing then without getting into patent pools or cross-licensing arrangements? People will be hesitant to put any time into R&D if they don't have assurances their work won't be quashed by lawyers.
Yes. Prior art still invalidates patents under first to file.
Actually, the system is harder now in some ways (and easier in others) because it's closer to "first to publish" than other "first to file" systems:
> an applicant could file a U.S. patent application covering an invention that was the subject of a publication provided the publication was dated less than 1 year earlier. This was true even if the publication was by another individual or entity that independently arrived at the invention on his or her own. Effective Saturday, March 16, 2013, if another individual or entity independently arrived at the invention and published an article before the first inventor filed the first inventor who filed will be unable to obtain a patent.
A lot of the people calling "end of world" around "first to file" don't really know what the new system means (not their fault, it's complicated!). What first to file does is mean that if you keep your invention secret, you can't then claim it as prior art for someone else down the road or claim that you actually deserve the patent because you invented it first. At least in this way, it makes uncertainties around patents a lot fewer.
Does anyone care to explain to me why there is no patent service that takes care of this process for open projects for protection of said projects? A patent would be granted under an open entity, but never used, unless a company used the patent for closed source. It seems that this could be a great way to fund open source projects. Reverse patent trolling.
Has MakerBot acted on any of these patents? If they are acquiring them defensively (a good move if they plan on working on them, lest a patent troll file the patent), I don't have a big problem with this. Of course, assuming altruistic motives is naive, I just wonder what their motives are.
It doesn't matter. Without a legally-binding pledge limiting the patents to be used only defensively, there is a chilling effect on innovators in the space. The threat of a lawsuit discourages development and investment.
[+] [-] noonespecial|12 years ago|reply
They may have great intentions. Who knows, but boy-howdy if it walks like a troll...
[+] [-] fudged71|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bryans|12 years ago|reply
I don't really care if you hate the patent system, or hate that somebody wants to treat 3D printing as a traditional business instead of altruistically open sourcing all the things. To publicly lambaste a competitor through disinformation just because they don't share your personal values is about as classless as it gets. This is open-and-shut witch-hunt territory.
[+] [-] mr_luc|12 years ago|reply
http://hackaday.com/2012/04/23/automated-bed-leveling-with-o...
Second, I disagree with your priorities and/or point of view on this, and I think it might be anti-hacker. It must be at once obvious to everyone that desktop 3D printing is both vital to the future and currently a "cottage" industry. What matters more: the future, or our personal notions of what's classy?
I feel that any action intended as a land-grab for enormous swathes of intellectual territory in an industry so driven by, and amenable to, individual invention and modification, rightly deserves the opprobrium of all hacker types.
Trying to patent compensating for a non-level bed in 3D printers is a jerk move. You could provide a similar defensive moat by just publishing your work, without stifling any of your peers in this infant industry.
Edit: when I said "priorities", I was talking about specifically about prioritizing being classy over protecting a nascent industry, and how that could be anti-garage-innovator. Re-reading my comment, though, I guess it sounds a bit more personal, which wasn't my intent!
[+] [-] sutterbomb|12 years ago|reply
I'm glad that you did find it - that is indeed very important information to take into account.
One note though - your tone and suggestion of "an open-and-shut witch-hunt" is very aggressive and makes me instantly think that you have ulterior motives. No idea if you do, but I feel like you were jumping to conclusions about the intent of the author. Can you imagine a scenario where the author didn't know about the provisional application? That's not an excuse, but changes the scenario from disinformation to misinformation and witch-hunt to mistake.
[+] [-] Rantenki|12 years ago|reply
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2014/0121813.html <- I've been filling with urethane glue for a while now, as a side note,
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20140120196.pdf <- http://www.thingiverse.com/thing:12320
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2014/0117585.html <- everything from lexmark/HP/etc. Oh, and a workaround for existing implementations already exists: http://hackaday.com/2013/04/26/cube-3d-printer-hack-lets-you...
Reading over these, they really look like a landgrab on ideas that have been floating around in the reprap forums for a while now.
[+] [-] lotsofmangos|12 years ago|reply
Here's this from 2008, for instance - http://forums.reprap.org/read.php?1,8028
[+] [-] baddox|12 years ago|reply
Open sourcing needs have nothing to do with altruism, and it's certainly not mutually exclusive with running a business.
[+] [-] danvoell|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sitkack|12 years ago|reply
The Stewart Platform [0] was invented back in the early 50s, I could apply an SP to any leveling problem. I shouldn't be able to patent leveling anything at this point. Leveling is a solved problem. Putting a computer in a feedback loop is a solved problem, one should not be able to patent feedback loops or computers or trivial applications of both.
[0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stewart_platform
[+] [-] rubiquity|12 years ago|reply
1. A startup that is trying to raise some funding is filing the patents as a requisite of an investor (it sucks, but it's part of the startup/investor game)
2. A startup that was acquired by a larger company and the acquirer is trying to protect its shiny new purchase
I noticed Makerbot was acquired by Stratasys last year so point #2 seems likely. These filings are likely to be more on the behalf of Stratasys than Makerbot. Again, I'm not saying it's right, just saying it isn't surprising.
[+] [-] JoshTriplett|12 years ago|reply
> 2. A startup that was acquired by a larger company and the acquirer is trying to protect its shiny new purchase
In particular, it seems far too common for a patent troll to see a company that just got funded or acquired and figure they can extort some of the new funding. So it makes perfect sense for a newly acquired or invested-in company to spend some of the new funding they just got to set up a small stack of defensive patents or publications.
That said, for both of those cases it would potentially be cheaper and equally effective to file defensive publications rather than patents.
[+] [-] ebildsten|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] scoofy|12 years ago|reply
Bld3r.com co-founder here.
I started working on bld3r, because i was unsatisfied with thingiverse (owned by makerbot/stratasys). I'd like to see the community put a stop to a potential facebook-like hold on 3D model sharing learning since we are learning makerbot is very rapidly changing their culture from open hardware cultural icons, to an anti-social corporate subsidiary.
I'll hit some fairly basic bullet points:
* We are a functional 3D printing repo and social network, and in the top 3 alternatives to thingiverse.
* We on github (AGPL), and i'd happily accept pull requests: https://github.com/bld3r/bld3r
* We are built on google's app engine, so you can take our site and use it as a base for building your own social network and launching it in a couple hours or a couple of days.
* One major feature is that you do not have to upload 3d models to us. You can if you want, but you don't have to. We'd actually prefer if people host files elsewhere (via dropbox, github, tpb, etc., even thingiverse). You can then submit a link to your object and it'll appear on our front page crowd-sourced with reddit-style voting.
* We do not sell 3d printers, so if you do, we'd love to give you some free advertising while we grow our site. We are currently working on a contest feature, so within a month, if you want to host a contest, you can design what you want on our site, and launch it to promote your printers (Lulzbot was the first of such manufactures to do so, and we are very grateful to them for the notable bump in traffic and name recognition).
There are many more things we do to prevent even ourselves from exploiting a network effect in 3D repos.
We are not without our warts right now (this is neither of our main occupations, it's just a labor of love to keep 3D printing open), but please give the site a visit if you're interested. I live in SF and my co-founder lives NYC. We'd both be happy to get a beer and talk about the site if anyone is interested in using it as a base for another open social network.
http://www.bld3r.com
[+] [-] e_modad|12 years ago|reply
As a community, we're lucky that ideas like 'open source' and 'freedom to tinker' are highly valued. Each of us has benefited tremendously from that commitment. But it wasn't an accident. Hackers, scientists and engineers have been fighting mini-battles over those ideas since the days of the 60s counter-culture.
When I stop and think about it, I feel a lot of gratitude and respect for our colleagues who set the precedent for an open Internet so early on. We have an obligation to pay that precedent forward so that technologies like 3D printing and DIY Bio can develop into vibrant ecosystems like the Internet.
[+] [-] klunger|12 years ago|reply
1. Patents are very VERY specific. Someone can have a patent for Thing A and you can make Thing B that is quite similar to Thing A, with just a few minor adjustments, and it is not an infringement. This is why there are tons of patents out there that describe pretty much the same thing, with very minute differences.
The takeaway is: just because Makerbot / Stratasys is getting a patent on autoleveling does not mean no one else can do autoleveling. It just means they cannot do it the exact same way.
2. A patent troll is an entity that has a patent portfolio, but has no actual products related to anything in that portfolio. They make their money by suing people (or bullying little guys into settling out of court).
Makerbot / Stratasys makes 3D printers. It is not trolling for them to file patents related to 3D printing technology. You might think the patent system is broken or feel that patent filing is not in the spirit of open source hardware (valid points which I personally share), but it is not trolling.
So, let's not undermine the legitimacy of those criticisms by conflating one particular (arguably douchey) business strategy with patent trolling (another, unarguably douchey strategy).
[+] [-] lotsofmangos|12 years ago|reply
There was a nice bed levelling project I saw on hackaday a couple of years ago that was cool as well, I think their method isn't covered by this patent either - http://hackaday.com/2012/04/23/automated-bed-leveling-with-o...
Also, the idea of bed leveling using contact force and other methods was discussed in the reprap forums at least as far back as January 2008 - http://forums.reprap.org/read.php?1,8028
[+] [-] TaylorAlexander|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] makomk|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bernardom|12 years ago|reply
Rational strategy: patent things that you think you have no business patenting. Use for defensive purposes.
If Makerbot starts using such patents offensively, then anger is warranted. Not before.
[+] [-] fudged71|12 years ago|reply
http://3dprintingindustry.com/2013/11/26/stratasys-throws-cu...
[+] [-] hyborg787|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rhizome|12 years ago|reply
The problem with that is that you don't know whether they'll use the patent offensively or defensively until after it's granted.
[+] [-] higherpurpose|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] travisp|12 years ago|reply
Actually, the system is harder now in some ways (and easier in others) because it's closer to "first to publish" than other "first to file" systems:
> an applicant could file a U.S. patent application covering an invention that was the subject of a publication provided the publication was dated less than 1 year earlier. This was true even if the publication was by another individual or entity that independently arrived at the invention on his or her own. Effective Saturday, March 16, 2013, if another individual or entity independently arrived at the invention and published an article before the first inventor filed the first inventor who filed will be unable to obtain a patent.
http://www.ipwatchdog.com/2013/03/16/a-brave-new-patent-worl...
A lot of the people calling "end of world" around "first to file" don't really know what the new system means (not their fault, it's complicated!). What first to file does is mean that if you keep your invention secret, you can't then claim it as prior art for someone else down the road or claim that you actually deserve the patent because you invented it first. At least in this way, it makes uncertainties around patents a lot fewer.
[+] [-] throwawaykf05|12 years ago|reply
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7738749
[+] [-] jamesdullaghan|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nitrogen|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] the_watcher|12 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fudged71|12 years ago|reply
http://3dprintingindustry.com/2013/11/26/stratasys-throws-cu...
[+] [-] kam|12 years ago|reply