Would be nice to take into consideration Sales Tax, Income Tax and Property Taxes. In the states it can be fairly misleading if you ignore these factors as some states have no personal income tax as an example and others have crazy sales tax and personal income tax combined with property tax. All these drain a persons resources when they move from one locale to another.
Not sure how to capture "soft" stuff like health care and/or vacation etc. I recently was surprised to learn the in New York an employer doesn't have to pay out unused vacation where as in other states they have to by law. This sort of stuff can certainly catch someone off guard when leaving a job to relocate.
Salaries vary heavily by location; income taxes reduce net salaries, so you can just treat it as a lower net salary for the area.
Sales taxes and property taxes figure into prices of goods. The site already says to include sales taxes, though it would help to have rates noted explicitly. Property taxes should appear as an expense under housing.
When living in a city that has niche, but no general, name recognition, a friend and I were taken for dinner, a very nice dinner, by a lady who worked for an international relocation consultancy. This was in 2008/2009. She politely, and professionally, refused to disclose the name of her company and of her company's client. Her job was to fly somewhere twice a month, anywhere in the world, meet English speakers ovr dinner, walk around shops with a camera, and write quantitative and qualitative reports of her findings.
The questions and purchase options in this crowd sourced list are extremely similar to the 'basket of goods' she was seeking. Prices are also pretty similar to 2008/2009 but a bit askew from today (particularly food, which over the past 5 years has experienced significant inflation).
Was there a surge of this type of information collection at the time (I can't recall anything of note online), or has a relocation / relocation-type consultancy released past data?
Expatistan has only 1 accomodation data point (Monthly rent for 85 m2 (900 Sqft) furnished accommodation in EXPENSIVE area) while Numbeo give me information about different size apartments in and out of city center
This data is either hiding inputs or weighting the outputs inaccurately... I looked at an example of moving to Vancouver, BC from Seattle, WA.
Housing was listed as 5% favorable to Vancouver.
The sub-elements listed were as follows:
Vancouver Seattle Variance
Monthly rent for 85 m2 (900 Sqft)
furnished accommodation in EXPENSIVE area $2,301 $2,216 -4%
Utilities 1 month (heating, electricity,
gas ...) for 2 people in 85m2 flat $85 $139 39%
Internet 8MB (1 month) $39 $47 17%
40” flat screen TV $473 $537 12%
Microwave, known brand, 800/900 Watt $121 $116 -4%
Laundry detergent (3 l. ~ 100 oz.) $10 $8 -25%
Hourly rate for cleaning help $23 $35 34%
Putting aside the fact that assets like a 40" TV are considered in "Housing Cost of Living", the weighted average for these inputs should be 1.5% favorable to Vancouver.
Take out the TV, detergent, and maid, and you're now 1% favorable to Seattle, driven strongly by rent, obviously.
This is an interesting area of work, but I'd appreciate either full disclosure of inputs and weighting or a much more simplified presentation (e.g. stand-alone rental rates).
I think the sum would be of more interest than a weighted average. The specific comparison between Vancouver and Seattle is almost meaningless for various reasons:
- Nobody rents furnished accommodation in Vancouver, BC. It's almost unheard of.
- You can buy your TV across the border and bring it over (same for microwave).
- Food will generally be more expensive in Vancouver.
- Gas will be more expensive in Vancouver.
- If you buy a house here expect to pay a lot more in Vancouver for a comparable property.
- Taxes are higher (though you do get services in return).
EDIT: As someone who is pretty familiar with both areas I would expect it to be cheaper to live in the Greater Seattle area vs. the Greater Vancouver area. There's a lot of YMMV though.
At the moment I have no plans to open the data completely.
I do sometimes share the data with particular projects or developers on a case-by-case basis. If you are thinking about using the data for something interesting, you can contact me through the website.
You do get some strange differences. For example I compared Cincinnati to Savannah Georgia. It says a TV costs 2x as much in Savannah and that a $129 microwave in Cincinnati costs $500 in Savannah. Odd numbers like this throw off the total.
Main economic institutions [1] already maintains databases of consumer goods and services price across countries, but they don't give easy access to the raw data. Glad to see Expatistan filling this gap.
Yes, there are a number of international institutions collecting this data, and almost every single national statistical office collect price data regularly. Sadly, they tend not to make the raw data available.
I'm not sure where they got their data from, but one thing stood out to me.
I compared the price from Vancouver BC to Seattle WA and was surprised to say that food was cheaper in Vancouver, as Vancouverites are always coming south of the border to buy their groceries. Especially milk, which they load up on by the cart full. On this site though it says a liter of milk in Vancouver is $1.65 and a litre in the US is $2.90, a GALLON in the US can be bought for less than $2.90.
This is very consistent with my experience shopping in Van and Seattle... Meat, produce, dairy, and alcohol are all exceptionally more expensive than Stateside.
I may be biased in my priorities, but a 6-pack of decent beer costs $7-$8 USD in Washington and about $15-$16 CAD. Exchange rates are still nearly at parity. I find myself bringing a case to support the drinking habits of my Canadian friends every time I drive up... (No wonder they like it when I show up.)
I've used numbeo before and I had a look at this, comparing about 10 or so different cities. The format and function is pretty much the same and I use them both for the same purpose -- a simple comparison of aggregate data on different cities using the same metric. I moved to Rome a year ago and in another year I'll be moving to some German-speaking country, so I'm comparing different cities now. It's not important to me whether the rental estimates are 100% correct or slightly high/low, what's important is that the data is collected the same way for both cities under comparison. I want a broader view to narrow the search, and then I will go elsewhere to get more accurate info -- apartment searches in the respective cities, for example. If you get enough data from varied enough sources to minimise biases (e.g. expats might live in the more expensive parts of the city and not know the local tricks, or most of your contributors might only be from a certain subset of expats) then I don't need to know the comparison of a hundred different types of little things because I can get more exact information elsewhere. What I'd recommend doing instead of narrowing your data selection is to actually broaden the scope of your comparison -- compare aggregated measures of quality of life, average temperatures/rainfall, hours of sunlight per day, number of bars or gyms per capita, etc. If I know what city I'm looking at, I can easily find a list of apartments for rent and get direct information that way. What I can't do as easily is compare the general perspective of life satisfaction or public transport penetration, crime stats, etc.
I treated the subject of quality of life from the subjective perspective of a software developer (big salary in a country with small income - the average net income in romania is around 400 eur)
It would be even better if you could input what you spend your money on. E.g. if someone buys a lot of alcohol, then the cost of living depends more on the alcohol tax.
I think this might be a hopeless exercise, since the things you spend money on are often dependent on where you live. If you live in London vs San Francisco you will eat differently, dress differently and spend your time doing different things.
As well as what you don't spend your money on. I find it ridiculous that the "housing" index includes not only rent and utilities but the cost of a 40" flat-screen TV. That belongs under "entertainment".
Also, several items are sufficiently vague that they have a huge price range; for instance, "1 pair of sport shoes (Nike, Adidas, or similar)" or "Daily menu in the business district". Far too subjective to serve as a basis for comparison; in the same city, those values could vary by 2-3x depending on taste.
It probably doesn't factor in currency conversion (i.e., it's likely based on how many USD are spent and ignores the fact that you're making EUR in Alicante).
Can this be repurposed as an independent price index/measure of inflation? That is, independent of the World Bank/governments and government-funded economic bodies, which could be useful
This seems to be deliberately targeting "expat prices", which can often diverge significantly from the local cost of living. For example the price for a furnished month-to-month-rent corporate apartment lease does not necessarily track the regular housing market. It might be useful for something, but I would be careful about using expat lifestyles to generalize about a region's economy.
For Santiago, Chile I can confirm that prices are VERY accurate - Entered and researched about 10 price points before I found where I can actually find the list - amazing site - THANKS
Once again asking about "expats", which just means "rich immigrant". You could get totally different answers if you were asking for "main immigrant part of $CITY". The survey to collect data even says "Do not enter prices that can only be found .. in [e]specially cheap neighborhoods", which usually means "immigrant".
Rich expats are pretty much by definition not "immigrants", they're usually visiting for a few years with a fat "expat package" courtesy of the company. But these are increasingly a dying breed, and most expats are neither fat cat expats nor dirt-poor refugees, but somewhere in the middle.
Also, much of the calculator asks for things like a liter of gas or a bottle of Coke, whose price is not going change radically no matter where you shop.
I don't think this can be used to compare moving abroad to countries that don't have USD as their currency.
For instance, when comparing a Brazilian city to a US city it simply converts the Brazilian prices to dollars, which is not the right way, IMHO. People in Brazil don't make the same amount of money and they don't get paid in dollars.
It doesn't make sense to have a single category for "utilities", as those vary dramatically by usage; that would be like asking for the price of "a tank of gas", or gas usage per week/month. It would make more sense to separate out electricity rates, water/sewer rates, natural gas rates, and so on.
Damn Cost of living of Indian cities are f---- cheap. Had a hard time finding cities outside India cheaper than inside India. The lowest I came to was Kolkata the cheapest in India. Even many African cites(like Nairobi) were more expensive than Indian ones.
Wonder how much the data is accurate.
Crazy. London is more expensive to live in than New York. Crazy.
New York is portrayed in films as somewhere great to go, whereas they always portray London as dreary, and it is always raining.
(London is alright to visit, but by the way).
I first read the title as (crowd sourced cost) of (living database) and wondered what the latter was - a database you have to feed? Turns out to be not so far from what the site does...
[+] [-] kator|11 years ago|reply
Not sure how to capture "soft" stuff like health care and/or vacation etc. I recently was surprised to learn the in New York an employer doesn't have to pay out unused vacation where as in other states they have to by law. This sort of stuff can certainly catch someone off guard when leaving a job to relocate.
Otherwise it's a very cool concept...
[+] [-] JoshTriplett|11 years ago|reply
Sales taxes and property taxes figure into prices of goods. The site already says to include sales taxes, though it would help to have rates noted explicitly. Property taxes should appear as an expense under housing.
[+] [-] Spooky23|11 years ago|reply
I'm in NY, my property taxes are about 60% of my mortgage payment.
[+] [-] raverbashing|11 years ago|reply
numbeo.com has that (but Expatistan's display of price in both currencies is nice)
[+] [-] lucisferre|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] crdoconnor|11 years ago|reply
I would prefer this one focused on doing what it does right.
[+] [-] carbeewo|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zhte415|11 years ago|reply
The questions and purchase options in this crowd sourced list are extremely similar to the 'basket of goods' she was seeking. Prices are also pretty similar to 2008/2009 but a bit askew from today (particularly food, which over the past 5 years has experienced significant inflation).
Was there a surge of this type of information collection at the time (I can't recall anything of note online), or has a relocation / relocation-type consultancy released past data?
[+] [-] pardo|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] adrinavarro|11 years ago|reply
Expatistan: "Volkswagen Golf 2.0 TDI 140 CV 6 vel. (or equivalent), with no extras, new" Numbeo: "Volkswagen Golf 1.4 90 KW Trendline (Or Equivalent New Car) "
I don't know. Not the same but very close and alike. I love Numbeo and this looks eerily similar.
[+] [-] pisarzp|11 years ago|reply
Expatistan has only 1 accomodation data point (Monthly rent for 85 m2 (900 Sqft) furnished accommodation in EXPENSIVE area) while Numbeo give me information about different size apartments in and out of city center
[+] [-] 72deluxe|11 years ago|reply
In fact, most places in the US (even the sunny bits) look cheaper to live in than Coventry. How sad.
[+] [-] OrwellianChild|11 years ago|reply
Housing was listed as 5% favorable to Vancouver.
The sub-elements listed were as follows:
Putting aside the fact that assets like a 40" TV are considered in "Housing Cost of Living", the weighted average for these inputs should be 1.5% favorable to Vancouver.Take out the TV, detergent, and maid, and you're now 1% favorable to Seattle, driven strongly by rent, obviously.
This is an interesting area of work, but I'd appreciate either full disclosure of inputs and weighting or a much more simplified presentation (e.g. stand-alone rental rates).
[+] [-] YZF|11 years ago|reply
- Nobody rents furnished accommodation in Vancouver, BC. It's almost unheard of.
- You can buy your TV across the border and bring it over (same for microwave).
- Food will generally be more expensive in Vancouver.
- Gas will be more expensive in Vancouver.
- If you buy a house here expect to pay a lot more in Vancouver for a comparable property.
- Taxes are higher (though you do get services in return).
EDIT: As someone who is pretty familiar with both areas I would expect it to be cheaper to live in the Greater Seattle area vs. the Greater Vancouver area. There's a lot of YMMV though.
[+] [-] yitchelle|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pardo|11 years ago|reply
I do sometimes share the data with particular projects or developers on a case-by-case basis. If you are thinking about using the data for something interesting, you can contact me through the website.
[+] [-] eightofdiamonds|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] chevreuil|11 years ago|reply
[1] International Comparison Program for the Worldbank (http://icp.worldbank.org/), Eurostats (http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/statistics_explained/index....)
[+] [-] pardo|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] aw3c2|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ovulator|11 years ago|reply
I compared the price from Vancouver BC to Seattle WA and was surprised to say that food was cheaper in Vancouver, as Vancouverites are always coming south of the border to buy their groceries. Especially milk, which they load up on by the cart full. On this site though it says a liter of milk in Vancouver is $1.65 and a litre in the US is $2.90, a GALLON in the US can be bought for less than $2.90.
So I'm a little suspect of the data.
[+] [-] OrwellianChild|11 years ago|reply
I may be biased in my priorities, but a 6-pack of decent beer costs $7-$8 USD in Washington and about $15-$16 CAD. Exchange rates are still nearly at parity. I find myself bringing a case to support the drinking habits of my Canadian friends every time I drive up... (No wonder they like it when I show up.)
[+] [-] raverbashing|11 years ago|reply
Numbeo gives 0.90 for a liter of milk in Seattle http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/city_result.jsp?country...
[+] [-] abdullahkhalids|11 years ago|reply
Cost of living in London is 16% more expensive than in New York City
Cost of living in New York City is 14% cheaper than in London
[+] [-] marianminds|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tudorconstantin|11 years ago|reply
I treated the subject of quality of life from the subjective perspective of a software developer (big salary in a country with small income - the average net income in romania is around 400 eur)
[+] [-] nawitus|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] netcan|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] JoshTriplett|11 years ago|reply
Also, several items are sufficiently vague that they have a huge price range; for instance, "1 pair of sport shoes (Nike, Adidas, or similar)" or "Daily menu in the business district". Far too subjective to serve as a basis for comparison; in the same city, those values could vary by 2-3x depending on taste.
[+] [-] whybroke|11 years ago|reply
Let me just say, there is an absolutely ludicrous error somewhere.
[+] [-] pitnips|11 years ago|reply
Just a thought at least.
[+] [-] coev|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] leccine|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hammock|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] _delirium|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] andrechile|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|11 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] rmc|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jpatokal|11 years ago|reply
Also, much of the calculator asks for things like a liter of gas or a bottle of Coke, whose price is not going change radically no matter where you shop.
[+] [-] goshx|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] JoshTriplett|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] minusSeven|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] known|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 72deluxe|11 years ago|reply
New York is portrayed in films as somewhere great to go, whereas they always portray London as dreary, and it is always raining. (London is alright to visit, but by the way).
[+] [-] userbinator|11 years ago|reply