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Sense – Wake up when it's right for you

104 points| clayallsopp | 11 years ago |hello.is

109 comments

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njharman|11 years ago

The body works amazingly well when taken care of and listened too. Really. Instead of hyper tracking every aspect of your life [and making assumptions based on that data] Just exercise, eat well, no caffeine, minimal sugar/food after dark, get 10+min of sun around noon, go to sleep when tired. All of which is almost impossible for 90% of people who are forced into regimented, high stress, excessive work lives.

austinjp|11 years ago

While I agree with the sentiment here, the actual mechanics just don't hold true for plenty of people. Certainly the 80/20 rule probably applies: your suggestions will fix a great many issues for many people, and it's definitely worth reminding most people to make several of the changes you suggest -- particularly exercise and sleep.

But if the recipe was really that simple for all people, more of us would experience more success.

Humans are complex. Not mechanistically complex, stochastically. We're chaotic. One set of inputs may produce different outputs, and reverse-engineering the reasons for those differences may be "hard" or impossible. Apps and tracking devices can help reveal small areas where a fractional improvement in control or quality can have very large beneficial effects.

Lifestyles and other highly personal factors mean that the application of a simple single formula will be met with varying success. And anyway, you have to measure the outcomes to understand how successful the intervention has been.

I'd also point out that just because you feel well, it doesn't mean that your lifestyle or body (or mind) are healthy. Some attempt at objective data is useful to determine if you're really as healthy as you think you are. Sure, you may feel great if you get regular sleep every night. But did you know your sleep apnea puts you at increased risk of cardiovascular disease?

Edit: probably a better example... You may feel perfectly fine sitting down for several hours per day. But you're at increased risk of a whole range of diseases. A timer set to beep evey 20 minutes to remind you to get up and move may actually add years to your life.

This isn't a defence of lifestyle or health/fitness apps and so on, just a recognition that they work for some people, and for some circumstances. Or so it appears. This is the start of a vast, poorly coordinated longitudinal experiment. We'll be poring over the data for years yet.

mbillie1|11 years ago

This is, sadly, advice which gets ignored by an overwhelming number of people in our industry. I know so many otherwise smart folks who buy a FitBit and track their caloric intake only to then drive (not go outside and walk) 2 blocks to get lunch at McDonalds or someplace similar. You don't need a product/app to live a healthy lifestyle... most likely if you are trying to solve a health/lifestyle problem by purchasing something, that is just symptomatic of yet another unhealthy aspect of your lifestyle.

arjunnarayan|11 years ago

I'd add in that you should avoid computer screens (or use some software like f.lux on the maximum dark setting) after the sun goes down. I'd also recommend watching your alcohol consumption in the evening as that significantly disrupts your sleep cycle.

colmvp|11 years ago

I love the taste of coffee and tea, both of which have caffeine.

Curious, why 10+ minutes of sun at noon?

bnejad|11 years ago

Why no sugar/food after dark? Any links?

philbarr|11 years ago

What affects my sleep isn't me setting my alarm for the wrong time, it's my 13 week old baby.

I'm sure I've seen a few things like this in the past. I wonder if they could adopt it for use as a baby monitor? We do currently have a sleep monitor but that just sets off an alarm if she hasn't moved in 20 seconds (or I pick her up and forget to turn the damn thing off, grrrr).

I could see this being a really useful baby monitor that:

- sets off an alarm if no movement in 20 seconds (important one this, obviously)

- lets you know if your baby is drifting off into sleep or is basically just messing about and still wide awake. Like, are you going to be able to go to bed now or should you just make a brew?

- a recording of and detailed description of sleep patterns during the night, so you've got an idea of how to organise your nights; like maybe you could work out when she's more likely to wake up at?

- a history and some kind of comparison chart, because with babies it changes all the time, so you might be able to predict and adapt in advance.

- an advance warning of when she's coming out of sleep. Babies go from slightly peckish to screaming their head off hungry in a couple of minutes, and it takes 5 minutes to warm a bottle. Having a "she's gonna need feeding soon alarm" would be really handy.

YZF|11 years ago

Babies need to eat/nurse frequently. We've evolved to be highly dependent on our parents until a fairly old age. The solution that worked for us was for the baby to sleep in our bed next to mom. Then this whole wake/nurse cycles basically happens without fully waking up. I realize some people are concerned about rolling on the baby but this is extremely rare/improbable for normal/healthy people. It's a somewhat controversial topic but do your own research... As a dad that had to go to work I also took some breaks and slept in another room (mom would also sleep during the day when the baby was sleeping). YMMV. Good luck and enjoy!

apierre|11 years ago

We were very worried about SIDS when our daughter was born (11 months ago). We had all sort of monitors and sensors you can think of, only to realise with time that it was actually a source of stress for all of us.

josefresco|11 years ago

While a gadget would be fun to help with your new-baby concerns, a bunch of your issues are simply fixed by caring for, and observing your child (aka parenting)

Also, a good deal of "training" or learning has to be done for your child to understand when it's sleep time, and when it's time to eat. Just because your baby thinks he/she is hungry, or not tired does not mean you should accommodate 100%.

It's a constant give and take. You need to care for and console an upset child, but at the same time educate them so that they are able to sleep/eat at times that benefit them overall.

Sometimes that means letting them cry in their crib, sometimes that means picking them up and rocking them back to sleep.

The kicker is eat child is different, so no gadget can help with your particular child's tendencies.

Source: Have 2 kids.

contingencies|11 years ago

Haha, 3 weeks here! I feel your pain. Work output on complex abstract thinking tasks has descended to terrible. It's not just the sleep, either. It's constant interruption when you do get going...

gingerlime|11 years ago

I know this thing is personal/individual, and different books give difference advice, but we just had our baby boy sleep with us, until he was about 8 months old (quite long, I know, and our bed is pretty small).

You really learn a lot about his patterns, movements, and you just feel him around. No need for monitors, setting things on/off, and no. We didn't suffocate him or squashed him. It was very natural to us (and him).

I can wholeheartedly recommend it to new parents, and I can honestly say I miss him around now that he sleeps in his own bed just next to ours.

bnejad|11 years ago

I'm confused about your alarm. Why does it go off when your baby has stopped moving(=asleep)? Is that a sign of something bad happening?

hoopism|11 years ago

Been there recently.

Have you seen this? http://mimobaby.com/

I ultimately decided more monitoring (we have audio/video/nest) was not going to help us. But still thought this product was cool.

david_shaw|11 years ago

From the landing page:

>>> We all have a natural sleep cycle, but a normal alarm will wake you regardless. Sense’s Smart Alarm, knows the right time to wake you, so you will feel alert and refreshed.

This is the part I like best. I wrote a web application (http://sleepyti.me) designed to let people calculate their own "optimized bed times" based on when they need to get up -- in other words, doing what Sense claims to do, but in reverse. The problem, of course, is that if your dog starts barking in the middle of the night, waking you up for an hour -- or if your sleep cycle lengths are significantly different from the norm -- then the app won't work.

It's interesting to me, both because of the consistent traffic to sleepyti.me and the vast array of sleep apps and products, how neglected a good night's rest seems to be. I'm not sure if it's a cultural phenomenon or just a change in human sleep behavior, but everyone I know seems to be in a constant sleep deficit.

If you look at products like Sense, FitBit, Beddit, Sleep Cycle (app), Sleepyti.me, etc, you'll notice that the market is supporting basic human function in those that aren't generally ill. I think it's indicative of a more serious problem that we -- especially in science and technology related fields -- can't seem to make ourselves go to bed.

All of these hacks are great, and the metrics can be very useful... but in the end, nothing beats getting eight hours of sleep per night. Try it for a week or two; the difference might astound you.

acrooks|11 years ago

Hi David, first of all, thank you very much for creating sleepyti.me - I use it almost every night when setting an alarm.

Have you ever considered a responsive view of it so you can select your parameters more easily on a phone without having to zoom in?

pyrocat|11 years ago

Oh, you made sleepyti.me? Thank you, it's a very useful website!

DougWebb|11 years ago

So, a WiFi-attached device sitting in my bedroom with a high-sensitivity microphone, a proximity detector, and unknown software? I think I'll pass, even though the product seems cool and useful otherwise.

Sure, I've got my cellphone in my bedroom at night and it's got the mic, network connection, and unknown software. But I figure there's a much better chance of someone discovering that Google or Sprint has installed a backdoor into my phone's OS or hardware that's sending recordings illicitly than there is of someone discovering the same thing about a niche product.

If the software was open (such that I could compile and install it myself if I wanted to), and the collected data was open and available to me too, I'd be a lot more inclined to buy this. Those changes would also create the possibility of an add-on developer community that could be constantly providing new software capabilities to the device, which makes it even more compelling as a product. For example, philbarr is asking about a bunch of baby monitor features; those could all be added with software changes, I'd bet.

Brakenshire|11 years ago

The first thing I look for with these products is whether there is an option for the data to stay local, or whether it is always sent directly to the cloud. I'm just not comfortable with that class of data being sent off site.

This is one reason why I'm confused by the internet of things, is the model really going to be that we have pervasive black boxes sending continuous data feeds to god knows where?

eli|11 years ago

Seems like a curious place to draw the line, but to each his own. We know that law enforcement has the ability to turn smartphones into remote listening devices.

mynameisvlad|11 years ago

This is completely ridiculous. Nobody is going to be building a backdoor into a product only a handful of people use when there are products that millions of people use that are just as easy to backdoor.

If the NSA, CIA, a foreign government, competitors, your own company, your mother, etc. wanted to listen to you and other people en masse, they're going to be backdooring a piece of software which is used by more people. A niche product like this wouldn't warrant the time necessary to bacdoor/collect data.

frio|11 years ago

I grabbed a Beddit (http://www.beddit.com/) off Indiegogo, which does something similar. Compared to Fitbit (put something on; remember to start it), apps (remember to start it) and others, I was hoping it would be frictionless -- hop into bed, start collecting metrics. Unfortunately, aside from the long (long) time required to deliver a useful Android app, it's failed me in a few ways.

1. You need the app running to collect metrics from the device (so, still some friction). I forget the app all the time; at the end of the day, I drop my phone on a charger and crawl into bed. Relying on humans to actively intervene is, unfortunately, suboptimal.

2. I was hoping it'd attach to my wifi and dump metrics to an API I could query (there's no smart alarm, so attaching it to my own stack of stuff seemed cool). Unfortunately, it sends data via a private Bluetooth protocol to your phone, rather than the wifi. Intercepting this is non-trivial (although the Android Bluetooth debugging stack helps). I'm trying to build a receiver on the Pi currently.

3. The API still doesn't really exist.

My use case is slightly different from others. I've got a chronic condition, and I'm not really interested in "did I sleep well last night?", which Beddit seems to have targeted. I'm much more interested in trends over a period of time, once my illness flares -- "am I waking up more often?", "how much time am I spending in bed, rather than active?", "over the past week, how many times have I gotten up -- should I see a doctor?". This should correlate with other smart devices (scales -- "how much weight have I lost?"; fitbit -- "am I still relatively active?") to give me a more holistic view of my health. So, long-term data retention is important to me (CockroachDB looks quite neat!).

Smart alarms and overnight statistics are interesting, but I hope companies developing devices for the quantified self start to pay more attention to long-term health data. It paints a far more interesting story :).

aaronem|11 years ago

My Basis band addresses your point 1 quite well; all I have to do is wear it to bed.

Unfortunately, there's no good API (and your choice of three variously lousy ones [1]), and it syncs in the same way as the Beddit does, i.e., via Bluetooth to a phone. (Or via USB to a computer, but that's not much more help.)

I've thought about trying to MITM the data on its way out from the PC to Basis's sync endpoint, in order to see whether I can trap it there instead of having to query it back out of one of Basis's various APIs once it's synced. On the other hand, I've already got > 1 month of data synced, so I'm going to need some method of extracting data from their backend in any case. (But on the third hand, since Intel bought Basis and Basis apparently doesn't bother much with new development any more, I figure it might be handy to have a backend for sync data in case the hardware becomes otherwise useless.)

[1] Two equally undocumented and unstable not-really-supposed-to-be-public APIs, for which various clients exist on Github in various states of disrepair, and a third, also undocumented but probably more stable, API which feeds their web UI..

rdl|11 years ago

I'm fairly happy with the Beddit, but it sucks compared to the Zeo (Actimetry like WakeMate, Beddit, and now Sense is really inferior to EEG based monitoring). Sadly, Zeo went out of business, and the electrodes are consumable, so I'm stuck trying to find used ones, or find a way to make a compatible headband (anyone have advice?)

I was hoping the Melon would actually ship, but it looks non-wearable at night.

Beddit is kind of a pain because launching the app on my phone is a pain; it requires manually pairing each time.

I'd really like a network-connected, adaptive-scheduling clock next to my bed, with EEG input. Something which could wake me up early if traffic to work is bad, or let me sleep late if my flight is delayed. Ideally with a home version which does NOT use my cellphone, and a travel version which is compatible and uses my phone.

I'd be fine paying $500 for this. There is probably a market in the tens of thousands.

system_32|11 years ago

Why do they need a kickstarter? They have the money for an entire team and are hiring more.

msutherl|11 years ago

1. Advertising

2. Taking orders

3. Easy capital

hoopism|11 years ago

Those videos have no substance... I realize in marketing that it doesn't ALWAYS make sense to layout all the details but these types of wearable/smart devices have been blowing up and the claims get more and more vague.

I get agitated watching these. I find myself saying "What does it actually do!?" throughout the whole thing. I could completely be missing the boat on this trend but things like this and the weird eyepatch that came up a while ago completely baffle me.

exodust|11 years ago

The money shot is the alarm that apparently knows when you should wake up.

I found the video hard to listen to. The guy has a bedside tone going on, a bit sleazy in his efforts to endorse the product with smooth caring ambience!

scottmwinters|11 years ago

Integrating this with Nest would make it one of the coolest and most useful embedded electronics on the market. What if it adjusted the temperature immediately and automatically when it determined that you were cold or hot? A sensor is great. Its really cool. But a control system that reacts based on the sensor data...thats a great device with a large market

fintler|11 years ago

This is an idea that I hope becomes more widespread for operations folks -- optimizing what alerts to prioritize fixing based on the number that result in wakeup calls.

At the Velocity conference this year, Etsy did an amazing talk on sleep and being oncall (I can't seem to find it on youtube?). They released an open source app that links their oncall system to a sleep device (jawbone or fitbit) at https://github.com/etsy/opsweekly. Also, they had a nice graph which described how they were woken up less over the year because of this system.

Having this metric as another layer behind primary error budgets (app downtime is inversely proportional to the number of times your devs get to deploy new features) is a nice way to keep your operations staff very happy.

dominotw|11 years ago

Another kickstarter garbage with a sentimental promo. Next.

joshfraser|11 years ago

If you're being waken up every day by unnatural means, your body is not getting enough sleep. A few months ago I threw away my alarm clock. Now I just wake up whenever my body wants to. It's been great.

toast0|11 years ago

That's great if your schedule fits your sleep schedule, but I'm not sure that's very common. A product that can wake you up in time for your schedule and avoid waking you in the middle of a sleep cycle could make it easier to make due with less sleep. At the extreme of little sleep required for newborn overnight feedings, for me, three hours of sleep is significantly worse than two or four. That said, sleep cycles tend to be shorter and shallower as the night goes on, after several hours of continuous sleep, the penalty for waking up at a bad point is not that bad.

untog|11 years ago

That's great. For you. Now how about the people that have rigid job schedules?

ramy_d|11 years ago

A few years ago I started waking up with the sun. Since then my waking experience has been great, I get a solid 7 every night and my day doesn't start with an abrupt bell. The sun is up, so I'm up.

dmix|11 years ago

Looks very similar to http://www.withings.com/us/withings-aura.html

I really want one of these (in general).

pat2man|11 years ago

Yeah I don't think I would shell out for a Kickstarter that may never ship when there is a pretty comparable product already on the market.

rayiner|11 years ago

Here is an interesting look at whether any of these sorts of devices actually work (in comparison to a real polysonogram): http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dr-christopher-winter/sleep-ti.... The answer is: most of these things claim to be able to do a lot more with simple sensing techniques than they can actually do accurately.

gr3yh47|11 years ago

If your room is too hot, sense will tell you

...in case your skin can't

if your room is too bright, sense will tell you

...in case your eyes don't

kiernan|11 years ago

I'd like to see either an add-on which is a lamp bright enough to gradually wake you up with blue light, or for it to be able to work with things like LIFX or Phillips Hue to do the same.

Fizzadar|11 years ago

Sleep Cycle already does this - without the need for any extra items lying around... can't see how this improves on it.

ambivalence|11 years ago

Where's the bundle with the "Keep-My-5yo-Kid-Asleep-Until-My-Alarm-Goes-Off" option? Would pay for that.

joevandyk|11 years ago

How does this work with cats walking on my pillow at three am? Does that mess up the sensors?

josefresco|11 years ago

Also, how does it handle the 1-3 times I get up to pee, let the dogs out to pee, or grab a drink?

apierre|11 years ago

A part of me is really interested in these sleeping analytic devices but on the other hand, I am always sleeping with my phone on airplane mode.

Not to enter the EMF debate, I wonder if being pinged all night long by all sort of waves is going to make my bedroom zen.

stinos|11 years ago

Maybe I'm a bit paranoid but, even though afaik no proper research has found evidence of it, maybe putting a device that is constantly using wifi right next to your brain for the entire night might not be the best idea healthwise?

cma|11 years ago

It isn't torrenting all night long, how many packets does it even send?

jonemo|11 years ago

> It simply attaches to your pillow and invisibly tracks your sleep at night.

My pillow tends to be either outside my bed and/or occupied by my cat when I wake up. Would this device still work under those circumstances?

jonco91|11 years ago

It's nice that it clips to your pillow and not to your body. Downside is the battery isn't rechargeable or replaceable.

mztan|11 years ago

I wonder how applicable these kinds of devices are to babies. Are baby monitors already capable of similar types of sleep tracking?

apierre|11 years ago

We have the Withings baby monitor with noise and movement tracking.

michaelZejoop|11 years ago

Is there a use case for sleep interruptions due to bathroom trips for enlarged prostate? That would affect its utility (for some).

zindex|11 years ago

Who recognized the song from Iran so far away from the video: https://screen.yahoo.com/snl-digital-short-iran-far-00000018...

pdeuchler|11 years ago

not to encourage OT discussion, but the song is "Avril 14th" by Aphex Twin... it sounds like the Lonely Island riffed off the main melody for "Iran So Far". The song is also the main sample in "Blame Game" by Kanye West from My Beautiful Dark Twisted Fantasy

stratigos|11 years ago

seems completely useless to me. the pretense of the video ad def confirmed my bias.

dmazin|11 years ago

How is this different/better than Zeo?

donpdonp|11 years ago

Thanks for mentioning the Zeo. I used it for a month a few years ago. It was ahead of its time using 1-wire EEG monitoring. I felt the REM graph was actually telling me something. Any sleep monitor to try and take its place must be EEG based. An accelerometer is inadequate for sleep monitoring.

The closest thing I know of is the OpenBCI.com project (Brain-Computer Interface) which is entirely an EEG project.

apierre|11 years ago

You don't have to wear a chest strap on your forehead.

rdl|11 years ago

It's inferior to the Zeo, but is not out of business, unlike Zeo. :(

_random_|11 years ago

no WP ? => trashcan

sly_g|11 years ago

Wow, how did we survive for 100'000 years without it, I wonder.