I hope the perception leans more towards 'uber rich tech execs conspired to pay their employees less' and not 'some of the best paid employees complain about how little they make'.
I think that's pretty unlikely. The tech industry has done a poor job of endearing itself to the rest of the economy over the past few years. My non-tech friends have been through the struggle of finding jobs in general throughout the recession. Few of them are going to shed a tear for engineers making less than fair market wages who already pull down six figures in their early twenties.
Someone I know in SF posted a picture today of their new Audi with a caption about how they were finally a real adult now that they owned one. I think that's pretty disconnected from reality, and sadly I think it is somewhat typical of the mindset that a lot of engineers have in this industry.
Yep, it's poverty morality, as soon as you make 50 cents an hour more than the next guy you're rich, and have no right to complain about anything.
Even when I was making $15 an hour answering phones, I'd hear no end about how the bus drivers on strike shouldn't get paid $20 an hour. Yet no one wanted to quit their job and become a bus driver.
Reality isn't real only if you're poor (and many of the poor in America live like kings compared to the poor in other parts of the world or in the recent past). There are a large number of fuzzy groups of people in the world whom have little concept of how it is to live in any group significantly distant from their own.
I deleted the comment you've replied to because of the rapid downvotes... but screw it... I'm putting it back here. Who needs karma anyway...
To the rest of the public, we probably look like complaining oil or Walmart execs. While the rest of the general public is dealing with insane commutes and thankless/soul-crushing jobs, we got things like "The Social Network" movie, San Francisco gentrification issues, fancy catered parties and Google Glass. I can't even explain this to the rest of my family. They're like "Why are the people in your field complaining? Aren't they partying like it's 1999?" And seriously, my life is basically a dream compared to the rest of my family and past classmates not in tech. I make more money than I ever thought possible, I have no commute because BART is so close, I can WorkFromHome just about anytime I want, I work in San Franciso with lost of food options and my job is something I'd be doing on my free time anyway. I have the flexibility to be at my standing-desk on HN debating with people online while drinking my fancy glass bottle VOSS water from Norway. And the icing on the cake is probably the minimum 2 recruiter LinkedIn emails I get a week offering even more money. Also, I never negotiate salary. I just take the first offer so I assume I'm in the lower-range compared to most of HN.
Seriously, go try and explain this to the average lower/middle-class American outside of tech. This must look ridiculous. I'm right in the heart of this tech scene and I'm not even convinced we should be complaining.
No we shouldn't be 'complaining'. As tech workers we have it better than most professions in the United States. However that doesn't mean we should be happy that the powers that be are conspiring against us to not pay us what we are truly worth. Any profession shouldn't accept collusion against them by corporations, regardless of what they're currently paid.
Lawyers can charge hundreds of dollars an hour but no one begrudges them that because that is what the market for their services is. Maybe the market for strong IT workers will land in that range too if the market was allowed to work.
I am not in SV, and completely agree with you. The optics are terrible. And beyond that... the reality is pretty bad. I don't think there's a way to spin it, a lot of the citizens of the US have had a very bad run for a very long time and would be very envious of the terms of most HN members' jobs.
I think baseball players are a fairer analogy. People love to hate on baseball player salaries, but it's not their fault that the market value of their skills is what it is. They are obligated to fight collusion and have a union anyway, though.
It doesn't help that this is non-recruitment/poaching vs blacklist. That seems greedier that people are complaining about lack of inbound recruitment vs more heavy-handed/less abstract techniques.
I think it has to be fought, because of the precedent, like companies defending copyrights.
Why are you drinking expensive water from halfway around the world? As someone who subsists on lowly tap water, I had to google it, and my mind is absolutely boggled. Not exactly doing yourself any favors with that whole perception issue. A glass bottle too! Despite the ease with which you might think glass would be recycled, its place in the waste stream actually makes it much more difficult (sorting difficulty and disparity between glass). Many places that have plastic and paper recycling won't take glass.
I completely agree except for your implication that the behavior of Steve Jobs, Eric Schmidt, etc was just some sort of trivial Silicon Valley nonsense. They actually committed a serious crime if it is true which it seems to be based on the released emails I have seen. The companies involved having to pay some money as punishment is just a slap on the wrist.
It's easy to explain to lower/middle-class Americans outside of tech who are in union jobs. That's because they understand that one thing a robust union does is help prevent (or at least mitigate) this kind of collusion before it starts. My wife earns 1/3 of my salary, but does a far more important job for society. She comes from a state in which the unions used to be strong. She immediately understood what the implications of this collusion were, and didn't need me to even explain why the lawsuit is a good thing.
They understand that different workers earn different salaries, and they get that "paid below fair market wage" means what it means, regardless of what "fair market wage" is the calibration.
But we can't have unions or talk of unions in the software industry, because that might upset the rather hilariously mistaken insider perception of this industry as being a meritocracy.
Yes, it's true that the tech industry has bad optics right now, and that this probably looks like ridiculous entitlement to just about everyone else.
That's a shame, because collusion of this sort is illegal, full stop. If our industry "complains" about it, and wins, this precedent sends a very clear message to companies - including, and perhaps especially, those in other industries - that wage-fixing pacts of this sort are not tolerated. This may not completely stop other companies from attempting similar antics, but it certainly changes the cost-benefit analysis.
This isn't a PR case, it's a court case, fuck what anyone who is not the judge thinks, lawyer up and go get some money.
Do you think the execs at Google/Apple care what Joe the plumber thinks about how much money they make. No, they're going to court to beat the settlement down.
You can be broke and have the adoration of the poor, or you can be rich and hated by the poor.
(There is a 3rd option which is chuck a few thousand at a democratic politician, and write an op ed piece in the NYT every few years about how the rich should pay more taxes, and enjoy not paying taxes.)
It's frustrating that this perspective doesn't get more attention. HN and tech in general pays lip service to addressing social problems, but it's primarily concerned with congratulating its own success and getting defensive against the concerns of the rest of the economy.
No, it's not our fault that others aren't as well off. But that doesn't make mean we can't do anything to help; it does mean we should complain about getting paid marginally lower six figures with a little more self-awareness.
Sure you're drinking your VOSS but can you afford a home in SF? I would say it's a middle class aspiration to raise a family near your work. You'd be in for an "insane commute" if you had 3 kids and tried to work in the valley.
Engineer's pay pales in comparison to the value they create. That's an issue.
Average office drone X probably shouldn't even have a job so yeah, they shouldn't expect to get paid as much as a developer at Google.
Eduardo3rd|11 years ago
Someone I know in SF posted a picture today of their new Audi with a caption about how they were finally a real adult now that they owned one. I think that's pretty disconnected from reality, and sadly I think it is somewhat typical of the mindset that a lot of engineers have in this industry.
fleitz|11 years ago
Even when I was making $15 an hour answering phones, I'd hear no end about how the bus drivers on strike shouldn't get paid $20 an hour. Yet no one wanted to quit their job and become a bus driver.
colechristensen|11 years ago
smtddr|11 years ago
To the rest of the public, we probably look like complaining oil or Walmart execs. While the rest of the general public is dealing with insane commutes and thankless/soul-crushing jobs, we got things like "The Social Network" movie, San Francisco gentrification issues, fancy catered parties and Google Glass. I can't even explain this to the rest of my family. They're like "Why are the people in your field complaining? Aren't they partying like it's 1999?" And seriously, my life is basically a dream compared to the rest of my family and past classmates not in tech. I make more money than I ever thought possible, I have no commute because BART is so close, I can WorkFromHome just about anytime I want, I work in San Franciso with lost of food options and my job is something I'd be doing on my free time anyway. I have the flexibility to be at my standing-desk on HN debating with people online while drinking my fancy glass bottle VOSS water from Norway. And the icing on the cake is probably the minimum 2 recruiter LinkedIn emails I get a week offering even more money. Also, I never negotiate salary. I just take the first offer so I assume I'm in the lower-range compared to most of HN.
Seriously, go try and explain this to the average lower/middle-class American outside of tech. This must look ridiculous. I'm right in the heart of this tech scene and I'm not even convinced we should be complaining.
GVIrish|11 years ago
Lawyers can charge hundreds of dollars an hour but no one begrudges them that because that is what the market for their services is. Maybe the market for strong IT workers will land in that range too if the market was allowed to work.
throwaway5752|11 years ago
I think baseball players are a fairer analogy. People love to hate on baseball player salaries, but it's not their fault that the market value of their skills is what it is. They are obligated to fight collusion and have a union anyway, though.
It doesn't help that this is non-recruitment/poaching vs blacklist. That seems greedier that people are complaining about lack of inbound recruitment vs more heavy-handed/less abstract techniques.
I think it has to be fought, because of the precedent, like companies defending copyrights.
cwal37|11 years ago
Wikipedia link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voss_%28water%29
rpedela|11 years ago
Iftheshoefits|11 years ago
They understand that different workers earn different salaries, and they get that "paid below fair market wage" means what it means, regardless of what "fair market wage" is the calibration.
But we can't have unions or talk of unions in the software industry, because that might upset the rather hilariously mistaken insider perception of this industry as being a meritocracy.
candu|11 years ago
That's a shame, because collusion of this sort is illegal, full stop. If our industry "complains" about it, and wins, this precedent sends a very clear message to companies - including, and perhaps especially, those in other industries - that wage-fixing pacts of this sort are not tolerated. This may not completely stop other companies from attempting similar antics, but it certainly changes the cost-benefit analysis.
cscurmudgeon|11 years ago
fleitz|11 years ago
Do you think the execs at Google/Apple care what Joe the plumber thinks about how much money they make. No, they're going to court to beat the settlement down.
You can be broke and have the adoration of the poor, or you can be rich and hated by the poor.
(There is a 3rd option which is chuck a few thousand at a democratic politician, and write an op ed piece in the NYT every few years about how the rich should pay more taxes, and enjoy not paying taxes.)
mooted1|11 years ago
No, it's not our fault that others aren't as well off. But that doesn't make mean we can't do anything to help; it does mean we should complain about getting paid marginally lower six figures with a little more self-awareness.
exstudent|11 years ago
Engineer's pay pales in comparison to the value they create. That's an issue.
Average office drone X probably shouldn't even have a job so yeah, they shouldn't expect to get paid as much as a developer at Google.
mcfunley|11 years ago