For a very accessible and practical guide to Seneca (and other stoic philosophers), check out "A Guide to the Good Life: The Ancient Art of Stoic Joy" by William Irvine
The title is a little cheesy, but the content is gold. It's one of the books I re-read (or re-listen to via Audible) multiple times a year. I find the repetition is really valuable since I can slip so easily back into my old thought patterns.
When I count books that have been most helpful to me, this one is at the top of the list (followed by "War of Art" by Pressfield).
Derek's intro to the notes: "Rating: 10/10. Almost too personal for me to give an objective review, because I found when reading it that the quirky philosophy I've been living my life by since 17 matches up exactly with a 2000-year-old philosophy called Stoicism. Mine was self-developed haphazardly, so it was fascinating to read the refined developed original. Really resonated."
I wholeheartedly agree. I found it both interesting, and "actionable". It's helped me in very tangible way, particularly in stressful situations where I might have otherwise lost my cool.
I agree with you. I re-read it multiple times and doing it again in these days. The content has been so helpful in critical situations in my life like the death of my father.
I should probably buy the Audible version too...
Another great book that I would like to suggest is Meditations by Marcus Aurelius.
Great recommendation. Irvine sets the historical background and suggests practical application. I plan on revisiting the original texts, this time with more meaning, and context.
Seneca sounds extremely privileged to me. His advice might be useful to rich people, but not the vast majority of people (in his time, or ours) who have to work hard just to survive.
His main complaint is against rich people who "squandered in luxury and carelessness", the various ways in which "riches [are] a burden", how men care too much about the "limit of their lands". Almost every sentence seems spoken to someone too rich for his own good, with too many slaves, mistresses, clients, and land.
It fits in with my picture of Rome as having a strong class hierarchy (and up to 30% slaves!). This are the words from the "optimo iure" to themselves.
I'd suggest reading him again. And this time, read luxury as "that which is not necessary", rather than "excessive opulence".
And then read the other parts that don't talk about wealth.
Seneca was solace to me when staring death in the face (Cancer) and I can assure you money was no use then.
Seneca was bloody privileged, but he produced a system that helps deal with the problems of privilege (they exist) and also the problems of lack of privilege.
In that case, try The Enchiridion[1] by Epictetus. Epictetus was also a Stoic philosopher who was born a slave. He was eventually freed, and then he was banished from Rome (along with all philosophers). He was lame for most of his life. Yet by all accounts he was happy and successful.
Your comment is so out of line. You are still wealthier than him by vast amounts. So no matter what you think he sounds like. You can still benefit from his advice.
If you are working hard to survive, you don't have time to think and experience existential dread. If you have time, you have the luxury Seneca talks about.
> In a similar timeframe will anyone be able to read our digital thoughts?
Lots of famous writing from the ancient world doesn't survive in the original and had to be copied; what we have is copies of copies of copies, etc. And plenty of ancient works are lost.
We will need to copy to newer media what is important for archival purposes even now it seems.
I recently started reading "Letters from a Stoic" [1] and I'd highly recommend it. It's a collection of letters, each a few pages long, written by Seneca. I read one a day and have a pen nearby as I'll typically find at least 5 useful pieces of advice or useful ways of looking at things differently.
Edit: in fact the letter I read yesterday was, like the one posted here, on life. Some things I liked from it:
"...death ought to be right there before the eyes of a young man just as much as an old one. [...] Every day, therefore, should be regulated as if it were the one that brings up the rear, the one that rounds out and completes our lives."
"To live under constraint is a misfortune, but there is no constraint to live under constraint."
"Whoever has said 'I have lived' receives a windfall every day he gets up in the morning."
I wrote some notes with choice quotes, etc, on this book several years ago: http://peterc.org/pedia/seneca-shortness-of-life/ - it might whet the appetite of anyone without the time to read the full thing right now.
I really enjoy the writings of the Stoic philosophers. If you enjoyed Seneca, you should check out Marcus Aurelius' Meditations[1] and Epictetus' Discourses[2]
EDIT: changed the links to Project Gutenberg links on jwdunne's suggestion
Stoicism is an interesting way to look at things and it certainly does make for some engaging mental exercises .. but I'm not sure how much actual value it can provide to everyday life.
One major problem with it, speaking as a 30-year old, is that it's not trivial to come up with some "ultimage goal" or "prime principle" for life. But maybe that's just me being unimaginative and isn't necessarily a flaw of the philosophy itself.
The real issue is that being consequent about stoicism seems to always result in contradiction given mankind's current state of knowledge. On one hand stoicism is concerned with not wasting time (on indulgences) and at the same time it ignores that a market economy (embedded in a democratic society) is the only way we know of, that can reliably force a larger population to strive for efficiency.
Of course the market economy isn't free - we pay for it by e.g. giving up moral values. It still allows for huge bubbles of inefficiency to form - things like complicance regulations that provide zero real value and only serve as market barriers. And of course we're all just fallible selfish humans, so there's no shortage of people studying and abusing these processes. But all these points are, practically speaking, irrelevant, seeing as how there are no (better) alternatives (yet).
So what is a stoic to do? Give up on a proven path to efficiency because he doesn't want to be a "tool"?
Just imagine how much more of our time would be wasted if there weren't an army of "tools" out there, working 8 hours a day towards the "indulgence" of ensuring that there is allways enough fresh milk stocked in the supermarkets of our cities.
Stoicism is a personal philosophy. It doesn't concern itself with the whole of human kind but with you. That much is clear in that stoicism advise you against the temptation for fame, power, money, vice.
It's a philosophy that embraces fatalism and keep you on the path of finding your nature and then keeping on that path, just being yourself, without regards for external influences.
The notion of duty is however very strong in stoicism: social duty is part of your nature. You have to accept your obligations and perform them the best you can, without search for external rewards.
All in all, stoicism is a search for personal tranquillity, inner peace. It's not even a philosophy of efficiency, at least I've never seen it described as such.
Stoicism doesn't rely on "tools" either. You can be a milkman and still adopt stoicism as your personal philosophy of life.
Duty is a very big part of stoicism: it acknowledges that we live in a social world and that our nature, our role, requires that we perform our duties to the best of our abilities. This is the only way to achieve some sort of peace, by removing the fact that you need something eternal to yourself to find satisfaction about what you do.
So, you can be a janitor, collect rubbish, be a developer, a manager, an office worker, a CEO, it doesn't matter. You'll only achieve peace if you find your own way to derive satisfaction in whatever fortune you find yourself in at a given instant. In short: accept what fate threw at you, don't sweat what you can't control, and learn to make the best of it.
>The real issue is that being consequent about stoicism seems to always result in contradiction given mankind's current state of knowledge. On one hand stoicism is concerned with not wasting time (on indulgences) and at the same time it ignores that a market economy (embedded in a democratic society) is the only way we know of, that can reliably force a larger population to strive for efficiency.
I don't think we "know" anything of the sort. That's just an ideology people who believe in market economy subscribe to. Efficiency, for one, is an empty term. Efficiency with regards to what and towards what? And why "force a larger population" to strive for it?
>And of course we're all just fallible selfish humans
Not sure about that either -- if it's meant in the extreme. I know millions who have devoted themselves to various external causes, even to the point of being improsoned and losing their jobs etc for it. From patriotic duty in an occupied land, to overthrowing a dictatorship, to working for civil rights and for equality, people following the communist ideals in the 20th century, etc. Even the nazi party followers were willing to sacrifice themselves (young soldiers etc), for some outer cause. Same for those who fought against them of course.
>Just imagine how much more of our time would be wasted if there weren't an army of "tools" out there, working 8 hours a day towards the "indulgence" of ensuring that there is allways enough fresh milk stocked in the supermarkets of our cities.
We have lived in societies were there wasn't always "enough fresh milk stocked in the supermarkets of our cities" and people managed just fine.
In fact common people had even more free time than now. Leaving your "9-5" job or your small shop you worked on every afternoon without any worry (and no boss to get you on the mobile), working only 5 days a week and with month long holidays annually, siesta and afternoon naps, people strolling and idling in cafes and city squares, etc, was very common, in 20th century Paris, Vienna, Rome, Barcelona, Athens, etc. In fact, up to the 80s-90s it was still almost like that. We might not have had Walmart 24/7 superstores or all kinds of BS foods and "indulgences" but it's not like they were missed much, if any.
Well, whether you like or not, your main meta-goal seems to be "efficiency" from what you've written, so that seems to be your subconscious "ultimate goal" or "prime principle". This is why knowing about various philosophical currents is very important, because whether you are aware of it or not, you are making philosophical choices, and many of those were already made by people before you.
Those interested in Stoicism, and who are curious if and how its ideals might be "baptized" and employed in a Christian philosophy of life, ought to look into the writings of Fr. Alphonsus Rodriguez, who has been described by some as a "Christian Seneca":
Perhaps I just need to keep reading, but he seems to be speaking against squandering time, being engrossed, attached (hints of Buddhism here), etc., but he does not offer any advice other than seizing the day and tending to your own desires, which sounds a lot like the hedonism he is denouncing at the very same time. Are there some activities that are not vices, and are not "giving away" your time?
"Of all men they alone are at leisure who take time for philosophy, they alone really live; for they are not content to be good guardians of their own lifetime only".
Letters from a Stoic is one of my favorite books on life in general. Almost everyone I gave the book found something applicable for his/her life - definitely a recommended read!
I'm not sure why this is on HN today, but in a Baader-Meinhof Phenomenon kind of way, I just came across it yesterday. It was in this commencement speech at University of Minnesota College of Liberal Arts by musician/artist/writer Dessa. It's 22 minutes long, so maybe you'll skip it, but it's a surprisingly inspiring and motivating speech: http://youtu.be/u38ue-XxHtw
"Baader-Meinhof Phenomenon" is evidently also known as frequency illusion. Wikipedia defines it as: illusion in which a word, a name or other thing that has recently come to one's attention suddenly seems to appear with improbable frequency shortly afterwards
Of course, in practice Seneca was considered rather hypocritical. But I guess being an important aristocrat during the reign of Nero does that to you.
The best book I have read on the Stoics is the Cambridge Companion to the Stoics, by the way, which has articles on every aspect of the philosophical movement.
[+] [-] mattjaynes|11 years ago|reply
The title is a little cheesy, but the content is gold. It's one of the books I re-read (or re-listen to via Audible) multiple times a year. I find the repetition is really valuable since I can slip so easily back into my old thought patterns.
When I count books that have been most helpful to me, this one is at the top of the list (followed by "War of Art" by Pressfield).
For a synopsis, check out Derek Sivers book notes on it: https://sivers.org/book/StoicJoy
Derek's intro to the notes: "Rating: 10/10. Almost too personal for me to give an objective review, because I found when reading it that the quirky philosophy I've been living my life by since 17 matches up exactly with a 2000-year-old philosophy called Stoicism. Mine was self-developed haphazardly, so it was fascinating to read the refined developed original. Really resonated."
[+] [-] jedc|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dome82|11 years ago|reply
Another great book that I would like to suggest is Meditations by Marcus Aurelius.
[+] [-] mikepilla|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ealloc|11 years ago|reply
His main complaint is against rich people who "squandered in luxury and carelessness", the various ways in which "riches [are] a burden", how men care too much about the "limit of their lands". Almost every sentence seems spoken to someone too rich for his own good, with too many slaves, mistresses, clients, and land.
It fits in with my picture of Rome as having a strong class hierarchy (and up to 30% slaves!). This are the words from the "optimo iure" to themselves.
[+] [-] graeme|11 years ago|reply
And then read the other parts that don't talk about wealth.
Seneca was solace to me when staring death in the face (Cancer) and I can assure you money was no use then.
Seneca was bloody privileged, but he produced a system that helps deal with the problems of privilege (they exist) and also the problems of lack of privilege.
[+] [-] rthomas6|11 years ago|reply
[1] http://classics.mit.edu/Epictetus/epicench.html
[+] [-] eruditely|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] judk|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pjmlp|11 years ago|reply
I always find a deep sense of joy being able to read such interesting thoughts that were put on paper, papyrus, wood, stone so many centuries ago.
In a similar timeframe will anyone be able to read our digital thoughts?
[+] [-] MrRage|11 years ago|reply
Lots of famous writing from the ancient world doesn't survive in the original and had to be copied; what we have is copies of copies of copies, etc. And plenty of ancient works are lost.
We will need to copy to newer media what is important for archival purposes even now it seems.
[+] [-] k-mcgrady|11 years ago|reply
[1] http://www.amazon.co.uk/Letters-Stoic-Epistulae-Lucilium-Cla...
Edit: in fact the letter I read yesterday was, like the one posted here, on life. Some things I liked from it:
"...death ought to be right there before the eyes of a young man just as much as an old one. [...] Every day, therefore, should be regulated as if it were the one that brings up the rear, the one that rounds out and completes our lives."
"To live under constraint is a misfortune, but there is no constraint to live under constraint."
"Whoever has said 'I have lived' receives a windfall every day he gets up in the morning."
[+] [-] petercooper|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] randomacct001|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] untothebreach|11 years ago|reply
EDIT: changed the links to Project Gutenberg links on jwdunne's suggestion
1: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/2680
2: http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/10661
[+] [-] Padding|11 years ago|reply
One major problem with it, speaking as a 30-year old, is that it's not trivial to come up with some "ultimage goal" or "prime principle" for life. But maybe that's just me being unimaginative and isn't necessarily a flaw of the philosophy itself.
The real issue is that being consequent about stoicism seems to always result in contradiction given mankind's current state of knowledge. On one hand stoicism is concerned with not wasting time (on indulgences) and at the same time it ignores that a market economy (embedded in a democratic society) is the only way we know of, that can reliably force a larger population to strive for efficiency.
Of course the market economy isn't free - we pay for it by e.g. giving up moral values. It still allows for huge bubbles of inefficiency to form - things like complicance regulations that provide zero real value and only serve as market barriers. And of course we're all just fallible selfish humans, so there's no shortage of people studying and abusing these processes. But all these points are, practically speaking, irrelevant, seeing as how there are no (better) alternatives (yet).
So what is a stoic to do? Give up on a proven path to efficiency because he doesn't want to be a "tool"?
Just imagine how much more of our time would be wasted if there weren't an army of "tools" out there, working 8 hours a day towards the "indulgence" of ensuring that there is allways enough fresh milk stocked in the supermarkets of our cities.
[+] [-] Renaud|11 years ago|reply
It's a philosophy that embraces fatalism and keep you on the path of finding your nature and then keeping on that path, just being yourself, without regards for external influences.
The notion of duty is however very strong in stoicism: social duty is part of your nature. You have to accept your obligations and perform them the best you can, without search for external rewards.
All in all, stoicism is a search for personal tranquillity, inner peace. It's not even a philosophy of efficiency, at least I've never seen it described as such.
Stoicism doesn't rely on "tools" either. You can be a milkman and still adopt stoicism as your personal philosophy of life.
Duty is a very big part of stoicism: it acknowledges that we live in a social world and that our nature, our role, requires that we perform our duties to the best of our abilities. This is the only way to achieve some sort of peace, by removing the fact that you need something eternal to yourself to find satisfaction about what you do.
So, you can be a janitor, collect rubbish, be a developer, a manager, an office worker, a CEO, it doesn't matter. You'll only achieve peace if you find your own way to derive satisfaction in whatever fortune you find yourself in at a given instant. In short: accept what fate threw at you, don't sweat what you can't control, and learn to make the best of it.
I'd say it's a perfect philosophy for today.
[+] [-] coldtea|11 years ago|reply
I don't think we "know" anything of the sort. That's just an ideology people who believe in market economy subscribe to. Efficiency, for one, is an empty term. Efficiency with regards to what and towards what? And why "force a larger population" to strive for it?
>And of course we're all just fallible selfish humans
Not sure about that either -- if it's meant in the extreme. I know millions who have devoted themselves to various external causes, even to the point of being improsoned and losing their jobs etc for it. From patriotic duty in an occupied land, to overthrowing a dictatorship, to working for civil rights and for equality, people following the communist ideals in the 20th century, etc. Even the nazi party followers were willing to sacrifice themselves (young soldiers etc), for some outer cause. Same for those who fought against them of course.
>Just imagine how much more of our time would be wasted if there weren't an army of "tools" out there, working 8 hours a day towards the "indulgence" of ensuring that there is allways enough fresh milk stocked in the supermarkets of our cities.
We have lived in societies were there wasn't always "enough fresh milk stocked in the supermarkets of our cities" and people managed just fine.
In fact common people had even more free time than now. Leaving your "9-5" job or your small shop you worked on every afternoon without any worry (and no boss to get you on the mobile), working only 5 days a week and with month long holidays annually, siesta and afternoon naps, people strolling and idling in cafes and city squares, etc, was very common, in 20th century Paris, Vienna, Rome, Barcelona, Athens, etc. In fact, up to the 80s-90s it was still almost like that. We might not have had Walmart 24/7 superstores or all kinds of BS foods and "indulgences" but it's not like they were missed much, if any.
[+] [-] bitL|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] buster|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sundance0|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] riemannzeta|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] msane|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] michaelsbradley|11 years ago|reply
Practice of Perfection and Christian Virtues
https://archive.org/details/PPCV-Manresa
[+] [-] jcromartie|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jcromartie|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] andreer|11 years ago|reply
"Of all men they alone are at leisure who take time for philosophy, they alone really live; for they are not content to be good guardians of their own lifetime only".
[+] [-] anvarik|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] freshfey|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] IvyMike|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pcl|11 years ago|reply
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases#Freque...
[+] [-] ssm008|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] myhf|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sbmassey|11 years ago|reply
The best book I have read on the Stoics is the Cambridge Companion to the Stoics, by the way, which has articles on every aspect of the philosophical movement.
[+] [-] EGreg|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Raphael|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 0800899g|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] akurilin|11 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] 3rd3|11 years ago|reply