As a huge fan of Amazon in general (as a customer), I still find it difficult to believe they released a hobbled Android phone that is AT&T exclusive and starts at $650 into a world where the $350 fully unlocked Nexus 5 already existed for almost 8 months prior to their release.
I'm just really seriously confused by what they were thinking here.
It is almost like seeing one of those "fail" videos where a kid piledrives his friend off the roof into the backyard and both kids end up badly injured -- of course that was the end result, there was no reasonably plausible path from the starting point to any sort of non-failure ending.
My honest assessment, (having worked for a company that supplies parts and SW to Lab126 [1] in the past) is that the hardware design and specs were nailed down quite some time ago, but they took so long to execute and launch that the world they launched into was vastly different from the one they had targeting against when they first started designing the phone and coming up with the battle plans.
[1] Lab126 is Amazon's hardware arm that makes these phones.
I worked at Lab126 on this project when this project was just started (a number of years ago). Given the environment in the team and the people hired to lead it, the fact that anything shipped at all is a miracle of gargantuan proportions, trust me.
As an owner of Amazon stock, I was very dismayed to see Amazon release a phone. The market is completely over-saturated. And worse, knowing Jeff Bezos, he will double down and double down and double down on this thing and never give up. That it's a fundamentally bad idea is not something he will even consider once he's decided to go this route. I expect the Fire Phone to take a very big chunk out of Amazon over the coming decade.
Two weeks ago at the Verizon store, they were selling Note 3's for $99 which appear to be at least spec-wise a far better phone.
In between the $99 Note 3 and the $650 Amazon phone there's an entire universe of better phones.
While there's some cool software included with it, I honestly don't think any of the things on show are killer features worthy of the price difference. The main special feature appears to be a "identify this item" which is basically what the amazon app on android already does, except now there's a dedicated button for it.
Do people really walk around identifying items for purchase to comparison shop on Amazon so often a dedicated button needs to be built into the device?
Amazon brand means to me that it'll be more convenient than the brick and mortar competition also slightly cheaper, and faster to deliver than all of the online competition also usually cheaper than online competition.
If their phone were a book, it would cost about twice as much as barnes and noble, and take 8 months to arrive, and wouldn't be any more convenient. So that's fairly mystifying.
The convenience factor is the strangest aspect of this phone. How are they making the ordering, delivery, and activation phase more convenient than a competitor like republic wireless? Oh they aren't. Well then.
So... I've heard the top down of why they're doing a phone, but whats the bottom up of why they're shipping something that is almost the opposite of the amazon brand?
Its not really an Amazon Phone. Its just a crappy overpriced underspec'd phone that happens to be sold by Amazon.
Looking at this post as well as the Firefox OS phone ($33 one) on HN today, I was wondering whether it makes sense for Amazon to release an FFOS device with Amazon's product's on centre stage (Prime video, Amazon store (not the Amazon app store), Kindle etc.). If they came out with a phone that had specs comparable to the Flame (or slightly better) and price it competitively($175ish), both companies can do well.
If the 2-year development timeframe is correct, one can see how Amazon couldn't even have thought of FFOS as an alternative, but now, FFOS is slowly but surely getting there. If Amazon uses it's engineering chops to advance FFOS – and I am sure that a lot of developers at Amazon will be happy to contribute to FFOS too – perhaps they could compete with Android and iOS?
Well, it's most likely that their product development cycle for this phone was just too long - the smartphone market moves really fast. Couple that with not having supply chain heft that comes with time and big orders from your asian suppliers and mfgs, the phone wasn't going to be cheap either.
But I think they knew all this. It starts the water flowing for them to get into the game. they have staying power, and over time, could start gaining market share. It's a long play, like most of Bezo's moves. The phone is really a just going to be part of the AMZN ecosystem too - they'll start lumping services on it for prime members, etc.
It seems they really tried to get into the market as a no-nonsense top player, with a phone that they perceived could go head-on with the flagships of Apple, Samsung and Google.
It would have made more sense (at least as a way of putting the foot into the door) to release a cheap, decently specced phone, which would have leveraged on Amazon services to subsidise the price, with strong client apps for kindle, video streaming, and the main Amazon shop.
Hasn't Amazon built their empire with the high volume/thin margins mantra ?
It's worse than that, though. The Amazon app store is crippled, like on the Amazon tablets. My current edition Kindle Fire has no YouTube app! Almost everything shows up later than in the stock store, if at all. The only thing that isn't worse is that the prices are essentially competitive, but overall it's a total pain.
Indeed. And it was so abundantly clear that this phone was going to fail that I have to speculate that Amazon themselves must have known this. Maybe the sunk costs involved in such a project gave them no choice but to continue deluding themselves?
It just goes to show, even the big boys make things nobody wants.
I know exactly which video you are referring to and I have also never seen anything with a higher and more obvious likelyhood to fail than that. I also have never seen an Amazon phone in the wild. But at least Amazon is not permanently damaged like the guys in the video.
There is the advertising too. My wife asked if we should buy one for our daughter. She assumed it was a cheap sturdy phone for kids because the ad was about a nine year old using one.
I bought a Fire tablet and I swore "never again" after that experience. I sold it on Craig's list and bought a Nexus 7. Couldn't be happier.
The fact that Amazon has a separate store really ticked me off. Lots of apps I was used to on my phone couldn't be used on the Fire. And, the fact that the Fire was based on Android 2.x and really never got better, well, that was really annoying, too.
So, when their phone was announced, even before I knew one thing about it, I was completely uninterested.
I think that for many (most?) Fire tablet users, not having Google Play is a minor issue at best. I have many people in my family that love their Fire tablets to death. They aren't even impressed by the iPad. It just does everything they need with no Play Store required. Read books, Facebook, web, games, movies (with Prime/Netflix) etc.
I was excited about the Fire Phone because—without knowing anything about it, but knowing Amazon's overall strategy—I thought it might end up being some very solid hardware at a very competive price. The big question in my mind was whether Amazon would have learned from their tablets and scrapped their closed garden ecosystem and gone for a more stock Android experience.
...but as soon as hard details started coming out, it was clear that they were going for the exact opposite strategy. Lackluster hardware, a premium price, and a doubling down on their attempts to set themselves apart from Android. And the problem with this is that it's a very stupid plan.
Here, try this experiment: Walk up to someone and say: "Hey, let's sell a not-very-good Android phone at iPhone prices, after removing some of the best Android features and adding some silly hardware gimmicks that nobody will like or use!" If the person you are talking to doesn't burst into laughter, then you are talking to Jeff Bezos, because there can't be two people who think that's a sensible plan.
Fire phone was a flop from the start. Substandard hardware and premium price tag do not mesh well together. Amazon thought that they could make software killer feature and sell phone trough massive advertising and sheer brand power. That is a tall order, and I am not surprised they failed.
However, if I learned anything about Amazon it is their tenacity. They will keep improving and pouring billions into Fire until it works, like they've done with their Cloud business. I think pulling HP Touchpad is not an option because they are too much invested in mobile strategy. So with all that said, while I am not surprised that first Fire phone flopped, I eventually expect Amazon to have at least limited success.
I was unimpressed when the "feature" in the teaser videos turned out to just be a gimmicky 3D effect.
What really turns me off on the product is the currently airing commercial on the radio where this girl is excited about all the notifications on her phone letting her know which book or movie she should buy next.
If there are any owners here on HN, I'm really curious what about the phone was alluring in any way.
I haven't bought one, and after playing with them a bit I have decided not to buy one, but I will sing its only praise: It is the only non-apple phone that even approaches the level of apple's build quality. The Samsungs and HTCs are kindergarten toys in comparison.
Is that really an advert on the radio at the moment? That's insane.
I don't hear adverts for supermarkets highlighting the excitement of a shopper before going to the checkout to have money extracted from them or their wild delectation and delight relating to browsing the store and knowing that it'll COST them to leave with any of the products.
I've recently seen the phone advertised with a year of free 'Prime' membership (aka a $100 value). Not really very compelling, however if they gave you a year of Prime and also that none of your Prime Video or Prime Audio streaming counted against your Data cap, that would be an interesting proposition. Frankly I was kind of surprised they didn't just lead with that.
Those of us who have had Prime for a long time don't really see adding a year on top of it as a huge incentive. So that's only interesting to anyone who's keen on Prime but, to date, hasn't signed up. I'd say that's a small number.
Personally, my take is that they started this project years ago and were going to ship it come hell or high water. There are times you have to look at a product in development and get really honest about whether it crests a highwater mark for your brand, and your market.
Between the e-book fight and this disaster, Amazon's churning some ill will. They'll survive, but Fire products will probably get a more skeptical tone in reviews than before, because everyone sort of granted that they would improve and refine over time, kind of like their profit strategy.
They do not have market share, but Amazon's existing venture into Android tablets has started to pay off. You can see that in 2011 the payoff was no where as big as now.
2. This is their first phone
Do we really expect their first phone to be successful? Its a huge marketplace that will take a lot to break into. I can't think of many net new smart phone makers besides Amazon in the US market. They need to get cell providers to buy into this phone. If they can't do that they are screwed imo.
I'm mystified when big companies think they can just barge into a new product category by slapping their name on a product and offering marginal benefits over entrenched competition. This definitely brings the Zune to mind. Newsflash: you need an edge to compete!
Amazon needs to drop Fire OS and just make a damn good Android phone with some well thought through customizations/exclusive apps for a great price. Until then, I won't even believe that their own programmers are actually using these.
I'm really not surprised at the lack of interest in the Fire phone. Even from the beginning, all of the advertising was focused on how the phone makes it easier to buy stuff from Amazon.
They have to focus on how the device is creating some sort of value for their end users. Streamlining the process of buying products does little to add value. Instead, it looks like a selfish attempt by the company to increase sales. Nobody cares if a product is good for the company, they buy a product because it is good for them. If the Fire does have a value proposition, the advertising has done a miserable job of pointing that out.
I haven't actually played with the phone yet, so I can't say if it is a bad device or just bad marketing. But I'm not surprised at the lukewarm response it has gotten.
After hearing about the idea of a phone from Amazon, I really thought they'd do more. I like to buy things from Amazon (like many here probably do), and thought that the phone would be competitively priced. It wasn't in my mind; and with only one major US carrier (AT&T) that it's being sold under, the customer base is even smaller. I love the ability of my current unlocked Nexus 4 to switch to another carrier or MVNO. Call me spoiled on the Nexus devices...
How would I be sold on the Fire Phone, Amazon? Allow the phone to be unlocked and lower off-contract price. Then, I'd consider it. I like the phone's features, but if the value isn't there, then I'll pass.
The lack of unlocking really surprised me. We bought one for testing that some of our mobile software would run on it, so we got the no-contract version. Even if you pay full retail price, it's still locked to AT&T. That's just blatant foot-shooting. If someone's going to pay you full price, it shouldn't be locked.
(And yes we tried getting Amazon to give us the unlock code. They said their contract with AT&T didn't allow it.)
I would have bought the phone if it came with lifetime or say 5 years of prime and free videos and games and what not. And I reckon, Amazon could easily do that but they didn't for some reason. Anyway, lesson learner I guess..
A lot of people on here are defending Amazon "because they take risks". Yea of course they do, they burn capital like a startup; when they have been in business for ~20 years. That is just negligence, not persistence. Sure they took a risk here, but it was vastly un-calculated and if it took them awhile to develop the product it still doesn't justify the attempt to win the high end as a newcomer in the space with a undeveloped app marketplace.
Is it just me or is this hugely unsurprising? When I talk to most people (non-tech), Amazon is not high on people's minds as a place to get phones/plans.
It's not very surprising it's not selling well, but it's a bit surprising that the number is that low. Given how big Amazon's brand is and all the ads I see on TV you'd think they could sucker more people in than that.
I wouldn't expect the 10m numbers that an iPhone pulls in an opening weekend, but they couldn't even break 50k let alone 100k.
In a company like Amazon, only one person can push for such a product, eg Jeff Bezos himself. For whatever reason, he just liked the product idea. Very few people would appreciate such a product as sales number shows. It is just a worse version of New Coke without Classic Coke.
I don't think there is a market for a phone that is $600+ that is not an iPhone. I think the battle going forward will be for the best $200 and $300 phone (unlocked). If Amazon would have hit either of these price points, the product would be much more compelling.
I'm surprised that the Fire phone hasn't done better... considering that when I talk to my teenager and other teens they all want a Fire phone. Yet they actually carry iPhone or Samsung Galaxy S5 phones.
[+] [-] georgemcbay|11 years ago|reply
I'm just really seriously confused by what they were thinking here.
It is almost like seeing one of those "fail" videos where a kid piledrives his friend off the roof into the backyard and both kids end up badly injured -- of course that was the end result, there was no reasonably plausible path from the starting point to any sort of non-failure ending.
[+] [-] hkmurakami|11 years ago|reply
[1] Lab126 is Amazon's hardware arm that makes these phones.
[+] [-] anon_1235245|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] otakucode|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bane|11 years ago|reply
In between the $99 Note 3 and the $650 Amazon phone there's an entire universe of better phones.
While there's some cool software included with it, I honestly don't think any of the things on show are killer features worthy of the price difference. The main special feature appears to be a "identify this item" which is basically what the amazon app on android already does, except now there's a dedicated button for it.
Do people really walk around identifying items for purchase to comparison shop on Amazon so often a dedicated button needs to be built into the device?
[+] [-] VLM|11 years ago|reply
If their phone were a book, it would cost about twice as much as barnes and noble, and take 8 months to arrive, and wouldn't be any more convenient. So that's fairly mystifying.
The convenience factor is the strangest aspect of this phone. How are they making the ordering, delivery, and activation phase more convenient than a competitor like republic wireless? Oh they aren't. Well then.
So... I've heard the top down of why they're doing a phone, but whats the bottom up of why they're shipping something that is almost the opposite of the amazon brand?
Its not really an Amazon Phone. Its just a crappy overpriced underspec'd phone that happens to be sold by Amazon.
[+] [-] amartya916|11 years ago|reply
If the 2-year development timeframe is correct, one can see how Amazon couldn't even have thought of FFOS as an alternative, but now, FFOS is slowly but surely getting there. If Amazon uses it's engineering chops to advance FFOS – and I am sure that a lot of developers at Amazon will be happy to contribute to FFOS too – perhaps they could compete with Android and iOS?
[+] [-] gdilla|11 years ago|reply
But I think they knew all this. It starts the water flowing for them to get into the game. they have staying power, and over time, could start gaining market share. It's a long play, like most of Bezo's moves. The phone is really a just going to be part of the AMZN ecosystem too - they'll start lumping services on it for prime members, etc.
[+] [-] Kurtz79|11 years ago|reply
It would have made more sense (at least as a way of putting the foot into the door) to release a cheap, decently specced phone, which would have leveraged on Amazon services to subsidise the price, with strong client apps for kindle, video streaming, and the main Amazon shop.
Hasn't Amazon built their empire with the high volume/thin margins mantra ?
Really weird, and out of "character" for Amazon.
[+] [-] dustingetz|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wnissen|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] increment_i|11 years ago|reply
It just goes to show, even the big boys make things nobody wants.
[+] [-] colordrops|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rayiner|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] blutoot|11 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] e40|11 years ago|reply
The fact that Amazon has a separate store really ticked me off. Lots of apps I was used to on my phone couldn't be used on the Fire. And, the fact that the Fire was based on Android 2.x and really never got better, well, that was really annoying, too.
So, when their phone was announced, even before I knew one thing about it, I was completely uninterested.
[+] [-] pwnna|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dpcan|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] r00fus|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Lazare|11 years ago|reply
...but as soon as hard details started coming out, it was clear that they were going for the exact opposite strategy. Lackluster hardware, a premium price, and a doubling down on their attempts to set themselves apart from Android. And the problem with this is that it's a very stupid plan.
Here, try this experiment: Walk up to someone and say: "Hey, let's sell a not-very-good Android phone at iPhone prices, after removing some of the best Android features and adding some silly hardware gimmicks that nobody will like or use!" If the person you are talking to doesn't burst into laughter, then you are talking to Jeff Bezos, because there can't be two people who think that's a sensible plan.
[+] [-] TrainedMonkey|11 years ago|reply
However, if I learned anything about Amazon it is their tenacity. They will keep improving and pouring billions into Fire until it works, like they've done with their Cloud business. I think pulling HP Touchpad is not an option because they are too much invested in mobile strategy. So with all that said, while I am not surprised that first Fire phone flopped, I eventually expect Amazon to have at least limited success.
[+] [-] kin|11 years ago|reply
What really turns me off on the product is the currently airing commercial on the radio where this girl is excited about all the notifications on her phone letting her know which book or movie she should buy next.
If there are any owners here on HN, I'm really curious what about the phone was alluring in any way.
[+] [-] saosebastiao|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] uptown|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 72deluxe|11 years ago|reply
A phone that advertises to you? Bonkers!
[+] [-] ChuckMcM|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jvagner|11 years ago|reply
Personally, my take is that they started this project years ago and were going to ship it come hell or high water. There are times you have to look at a product in development and get really honest about whether it crests a highwater mark for your brand, and your market.
Between the e-book fight and this disaster, Amazon's churning some ill will. They'll survive, but Fire products will probably get a more skeptical tone in reviews than before, because everyone sort of granted that they would improve and refine over time, kind of like their profit strategy.
[+] [-] benatkin|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mason240|11 years ago|reply
So if a full 25% of Amazon employees decided to be company men/women, that alone would account for all their sales.
[+] [-] ntkachov|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] serve_yay|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] knodi123|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] stevebot|11 years ago|reply
1. Amazon has had financial success with the Kindle Fire
http://www.businessinsider.com/a-look-at-amazons-kindle-ecos...
They do not have market share, but Amazon's existing venture into Android tablets has started to pay off. You can see that in 2011 the payoff was no where as big as now.
2. This is their first phone
Do we really expect their first phone to be successful? Its a huge marketplace that will take a lot to break into. I can't think of many net new smart phone makers besides Amazon in the US market. They need to get cell providers to buy into this phone. If they can't do that they are screwed imo.
All that said these numbers are tragic if true.
[+] [-] saturdaysaint|11 years ago|reply
Amazon needs to drop Fire OS and just make a damn good Android phone with some well thought through customizations/exclusive apps for a great price. Until then, I won't even believe that their own programmers are actually using these.
[+] [-] sssilver|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] stephengoodwin|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] aaron987|11 years ago|reply
They have to focus on how the device is creating some sort of value for their end users. Streamlining the process of buying products does little to add value. Instead, it looks like a selfish attempt by the company to increase sales. Nobody cares if a product is good for the company, they buy a product because it is good for them. If the Fire does have a value proposition, the advertising has done a miserable job of pointing that out.
I haven't actually played with the phone yet, so I can't say if it is a bad device or just bad marketing. But I'm not surprised at the lukewarm response it has gotten.
[+] [-] dustin1114|11 years ago|reply
How would I be sold on the Fire Phone, Amazon? Allow the phone to be unlocked and lower off-contract price. Then, I'd consider it. I like the phone's features, but if the value isn't there, then I'll pass.
[+] [-] kevinday|11 years ago|reply
(And yes we tried getting Amazon to give us the unlock code. They said their contract with AT&T didn't allow it.)
[+] [-] alokdhari|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cix|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] MBlume|11 years ago|reply
If I'd bought and held Amazon 10 years ago, would I be kicking myself now?
[+] [-] justicezyx|11 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] keehun|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] MBCook|11 years ago|reply
I wouldn't expect the 10m numbers that an iPhone pulls in an opening weekend, but they couldn't even break 50k let alone 100k.
[+] [-] w1ntermute|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] blueskin_|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] moca|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] madoublet|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bhartzer|11 years ago|reply