I probably don't agree with Sandvik about Google's complicity, but that doesn't matter. Silencing her to accommodate a company sponsor is both unethical and counterproductive.
There are forms of criticism that are intrinsically not compatible with being a director. If Sandvik was criticizing Google's participation with "Code Club" or making claims directly relevant to the project, that would be germane to the board. But that's not what happened here.
Silencing project members also doesn't help Google. Instead, it contributes to a perception that any support Google has comes from the barrel of a financial gun.
If Sandvik was given an ultimatum to stop criticizing Google to avoid annoying a sponsor, that was a terrible mistake on the part of the project. They should do what they can to correct it.
Agreed both on the fact that I think she is overplaying Google's complicity and that the reaction to it was counterproductive.
Basically this is a variant of the Streisand effect -- I previously had never even heard of the "Code Club" but now I have a negative opinion of it and my opinion of Google is now slightly more tarnished (though my opinion of Google is already complex and multilayed and so the relative damage to Google here is not nearly as great as the damage to "Code Club").
OTOH, had I just read what she said about Google in an interview or whatever my opinion of "Code Club" would be neutral and I would think she was being somewhat unfair to Google (but far less so than a lot of more damaging claims I've seen people make).
Are there examples of the criticism Sandvik engaged in, so we'd know if they fit your "forms of criticism that are intrinsically not compatible with being a director" standard?
Mass surveillance and the large scale violation of privacy is Google's core business model. I was assuming she was referring to that, and not any NSA-related conspiracy allegations. (And although this may be coincidental, Google recently announced they will be targeting children, circumventing the law by tempting parents into consenting.)
It's interesting how you twist yourself into a pretzel (you "probably", maybe, a little bit, think that what she says about the sponsor is a lie) to end up with the conclusion that her actions are somehow justified and the board is committing some terrible crime of censorship.
The validity of her complains is very much the core of the issue.
She only gave one example (that Google is "involved in corporate mass surveillance") and presumably that is in context of NSA spying and the consensus around that is that it's a lie.
At her level badmouthing a partner is grossly nonprofessional. Spreading vicious lies - that's a no brainer reason to fire her.
Also, let's not be naive about the context of her complaints. When she says "when someone asks me..." she (or the board) doesn't mean "my college friend at a dinner party" but "a member of the press".
And given the state of journalism, "the member of the press" is not interested in Linda's perspective on Google's spying because she has literally nothing new to add.
In that context the only value for the press is to reduce her views to a click-baiting headline of "Code Club board member accuses sponsor Google of mass surveillance" which would damage Google precisely because they were nice enough to sponsor Code Club.
If she complained about AT&T (which actually did illegally spy on Americans in massive constitutional violation, for which they received a retroactive immunity), there would be no story because AT&T is not a Code Club sponsor or Linda doesn't feel like complaining about AT&T.
I'm not privy to the details but the simplest interpretation of what we know is that she was hell bent on spouting nonsense of the "Google mass surveillance" kind to the press and the board was very justified in worrying about a press creating a mountain out of a molehill to the point they felt they had to intervene.
So far there is 0 evidence that Linda had some novel complaints that are serious enough to risk damaging an organization that helps kids learn to code. So far all I see a selfish, self-righteous individual.
I'm conflicted. I respect someone for standing up for what they believe in (freedom to express their views) but this also seems like one of those "pick your battles" situations.
Google like it or not are a key sponsor of Code Club. They do some good and some evil, but they're a key sponsor, and as the director you need to put the organisation ahead of your personal issues/complaints.
The complaints might be entirely valid (and they likely are), but when you're in that kind of position you might not have the luxury of expressing valid complains about the people who literally pay the bills.
So I guess my thought is: Maybe this is best for all parties. Code Club gets to continue, Linda Sandvik will be able to express herself openly, and Google will be able to continue to be a Code Club sponsor without conflict.
It is just unfortunate that these personal complaints couldn't be put to the side for the betterment of the organisation as a whole.
Why do you take it as implicitly acceptable that Google should expect silence about their bad actions simply because they sponsor the club? Is Google sponsoring the club to support teaching kids to code, or to buy some ideological allies in the tech ideas sphere? If the second, why should we accept such a thing?
Hmm, how about journalists who write articles about companies that buy advertisments in newspapers they work for?
Are journalists allowed to write bad things about advertaisers? There are other topics they can choose or switch job...
I can't belive that Google is sponsoring Code Club totally without any gains (positive PR, for instance), so that's kind of mutual relation between Code Club and Google. If Code Club starts promoting coding worst practices (say, let's use always static methods in Java) I would expect that Google, as a partner/sponsor, would react.
Google provides a lot of valuable services, but they have also some questionable practices, I don't see any reason why someone cannot speak about them.
I guess she wasn't spreading lies about Google or offending Google or Google employees, etc. so why the "gag order". Constructive criticism should be welcomed, especially in the strongly "meritocratic" circles.
"put the organisation ahead of your personal issues/complaints" way of thinking can be really dangerous because it allows to justify evil - "because organisation/my boss" said to do X or Y I can put aside by belives and opinions.
That's start from cheating older people to buy expensive phone plans or cable TV subscriptions ($1 a month only... for first 3 months out of 24).
Then we can justify bankers talking people into bad investments.
Then we can justify selling drugs that does not help anyone (but the company invested $XXXXXXXX, so the product must go to pharmacies).
"Here, take all this money and be quiet about everything we do". That's not how a healthy society works.
Google are sponsoring Code Club not because they're good guys, but because they have some business interest in it.
They must be accountable for their actions, good or bad. Linda Sandvik expressed her believes as a person and she did great not accepting being silenced just because she was hurting the feelings of a big company.
If someone asks for silence (and it is not clear that Google has; it could just as well be an overzealous board, so I'm not (yet) blaming Google), then I'd be inclined to grit my teeth and say I don't want their money.
Yes, it may be "for the good of the organisation" in the short term. But if you allow the organisation to be corrupted by bending to the will of corporate sponsors that are treating it as a means of buying goodwill, it is not clear the organization will deserve to survive in the long term.
I must say that if Google asked for this, then I don't think they are a suitable sponsor. It sends all the wrong signals to me for an educational charity to sell the silence of it's board members.
In any case, this has already damaged my opinion of the Code Club board, regardless whether they made this decision unilaterally or under pressure. I hope it does not damage my opinion of Google too.
I'm not sure I understand what the life lesson is.
In my mind, the battle with the board should be "either we drop the evildoing sponsors or I quit", not "I want evildoing sponsors' money but I still want to retain the right to criticize them or I quit".
What is actually bad about Google's "corporate mass surveillance"?
It sure sounds scary, but when I actually try to think about what it is actually bad about it, I can't really think of any.
Every single user Google got, they signed up voluntarily. Google never forced anyone to sign up for their services.
Google attempts to learn about its users just like every other companies. It's just that Google does it so much better than others. Do you get the label "corporate mass surveillance", when the company becomes so good learning about its users?
When I started using Google services many years ago, it definitely didn't occur to me they could basically track you across half the web. And you don't really get much of a choice in the matter. You can actively try to avoid Google sites and they're probably not missing out on a ton.
But more importantly, my grandmother certainly doesn't have any idea what they're doing.
And to be honest, I'm not much better off. So hard to consent to something if I'm not even sure what all they're gathering, and what they're doing with it.
The fact that you managed to get people to go along voluntarily with something harmful to them by presenting it as something benign does not make your actions ultimately benign.
And yes, there comes a point where simple observation crosses the line. This is generally recognized by society. If I take a picture on the street and a particular person happens to be in it, that is generally OK. Most people wouldn't look askance at that. If I take a picture of the same person through their bedroom window, I'm liable to be arrested and labeled a creep. The specifics of information-gathering matter very much to how OK it is in terms of social acceptance.
> "I do not want to get into the specifics of any particular corporation. Nonetheless, it’s worth restating that the Code Club board believe X are a tremendous partner. As a member of the board I am completely aligned with that view."
> I'm not comfortable with lying and so it is in my best interest to resign.
I'm not sure what part of that statement would be a lie?
"As a member of the board I am completely aligned with that view."
If she were asked to stop at "the board believe X are a tremendous partner", then as a member of the board, she'd be implying the last sentence, but not actually saying it. (I couldn't comment on whether or not she'd be fine with the implication either.)
The above is what the board has told here she should say if asked something about a partner.
If the actions of this corporation means she thinks e.g. that they're an unsuitable partner, then doing as the board told her would be to lie. She may also very well consider it lying by omission if she is unable to state her true opinion about said corporation.
I saw her speak at one of the Croydon Tech City events, and it's sad to see one of the founders of such a great educational organization like Code Club effectively get pushed out over the (possibly perceived - it's not clear Google or whomever actually asked for this in any way) sensitivity of some corporate partner.
If I had a sponsor and an employee was criticizing the decision to say something to that employee would be based on how the criticism was done. If the person mentioned that they just didn't like Google's surveillance program then I would let it go. But if they ran around yelling about Google is evil because of said programs then we would have to have a talk.
If I am running a small company and your personal opinions are costing me money it would be crazy for me to keep you on. Not saying that is what happened here but that is more of a response from some of the comments I have read.
Here's a thought. If you think google is evil because of surveillance should you not only refuse to use gmail (and other google products) but also refuse to send email to gmail addresses, because you don't want to support them?
(By the way, you can have this concern without thinking that Google is "evil": for example, you might think that it's risky to have so much e-mail in one centralized place and want Internet services to be redecentralized.)
When Google tracking its [voluntary] users's activities on the internet becomes human rights violations, the internet's social justice outrage machine has jumped the shark.
Bad-mouthing your sponsors is pretty universally considered a business faux pas. I don't see how it's either unusual or unethical to keep your opinions to yourself when the funding for your organization is on the line. That said, there's nothing wrong with caring about free speech more than teaching children to code. People are entitled to their priorities, after all.
Linda Sandvik sounds like a fundamentally good person, and the other members of the Code Club board bad ones. Good on her. They will be harmed by her absence, and they deserve that.
The belief that sponsorship can buy silence is disgusting and immoral. Sponsorship should convey absolutely nothing aside from receiving credit for assisting with the sponsored organizations goals.
I think you're reaching a bit there. It sounds like this was a conflict with the board's practices more than anything, and this problem could have manifested itself in numerous ways other than sponsorship alignment..
Are there a lot of companies/organizations out there that would be comfortable with employees (or directors) publicly criticizing the organization or its partners? Outside of journalists (who should expect/demand this sort of freedom of expression), I suspect the answer is no. It's not clear to me that Code Club's request was unreasonable.
> either I have to stop saying negative things about Code Club sponsors, or resign as a director.
sponsor is basically indirect employer. Don't bite the hand feeding you, it is just unethical. Publicly saying bad things about your employer is a bad thing. Resign and, only after that, say whatever you want as long as you don't violate the non-disclosures you may had signed.
tptacek|11 years ago
There are forms of criticism that are intrinsically not compatible with being a director. If Sandvik was criticizing Google's participation with "Code Club" or making claims directly relevant to the project, that would be germane to the board. But that's not what happened here.
Silencing project members also doesn't help Google. Instead, it contributes to a perception that any support Google has comes from the barrel of a financial gun.
If Sandvik was given an ultimatum to stop criticizing Google to avoid annoying a sponsor, that was a terrible mistake on the part of the project. They should do what they can to correct it.
georgemcbay|11 years ago
Basically this is a variant of the Streisand effect -- I previously had never even heard of the "Code Club" but now I have a negative opinion of it and my opinion of Google is now slightly more tarnished (though my opinion of Google is already complex and multilayed and so the relative damage to Google here is not nearly as great as the damage to "Code Club").
OTOH, had I just read what she said about Google in an interview or whatever my opinion of "Code Club" would be neutral and I would think she was being somewhat unfair to Google (but far less so than a lot of more damaging claims I've seen people make).
kghose|11 years ago
The courses of action should have been
1. Resign from company and then air personal views (as explicitly personal)
2. Air personal views separately but say explicitly these are personal views.
3. Discuss matter in the board and come up with company approved policy statement - we will no longer do business with Google etc. because ...
smikhanov|11 years ago
gojomo|11 years ago
bowlofpetunias|11 years ago
Mass surveillance and the large scale violation of privacy is Google's core business model. I was assuming she was referring to that, and not any NSA-related conspiracy allegations. (And although this may be coincidental, Google recently announced they will be targeting children, circumventing the law by tempting parents into consenting.)
kjksf|11 years ago
It's interesting how you twist yourself into a pretzel (you "probably", maybe, a little bit, think that what she says about the sponsor is a lie) to end up with the conclusion that her actions are somehow justified and the board is committing some terrible crime of censorship.
The validity of her complains is very much the core of the issue.
She only gave one example (that Google is "involved in corporate mass surveillance") and presumably that is in context of NSA spying and the consensus around that is that it's a lie.
At her level badmouthing a partner is grossly nonprofessional. Spreading vicious lies - that's a no brainer reason to fire her.
Also, let's not be naive about the context of her complaints. When she says "when someone asks me..." she (or the board) doesn't mean "my college friend at a dinner party" but "a member of the press".
And given the state of journalism, "the member of the press" is not interested in Linda's perspective on Google's spying because she has literally nothing new to add.
In that context the only value for the press is to reduce her views to a click-baiting headline of "Code Club board member accuses sponsor Google of mass surveillance" which would damage Google precisely because they were nice enough to sponsor Code Club.
If she complained about AT&T (which actually did illegally spy on Americans in massive constitutional violation, for which they received a retroactive immunity), there would be no story because AT&T is not a Code Club sponsor or Linda doesn't feel like complaining about AT&T.
I'm not privy to the details but the simplest interpretation of what we know is that she was hell bent on spouting nonsense of the "Google mass surveillance" kind to the press and the board was very justified in worrying about a press creating a mountain out of a molehill to the point they felt they had to intervene.
So far there is 0 evidence that Linda had some novel complaints that are serious enough to risk damaging an organization that helps kids learn to code. So far all I see a selfish, self-righteous individual.
Someone1234|11 years ago
The complaints might be entirely valid (and they likely are), but when you're in that kind of position you might not have the luxury of expressing valid complains about the people who literally pay the bills.
So I guess my thought is: Maybe this is best for all parties. Code Club gets to continue, Linda Sandvik will be able to express herself openly, and Google will be able to continue to be a Code Club sponsor without conflict.
It is just unfortunate that these personal complaints couldn't be put to the side for the betterment of the organisation as a whole.
simondedalus|11 years ago
She isn't even resigning in protest of Google's involvement, but the board's forbidding her to criticize any of Google's actions.
otakucode|11 years ago
piokoch|11 years ago
Are journalists allowed to write bad things about advertaisers? There are other topics they can choose or switch job...
I can't belive that Google is sponsoring Code Club totally without any gains (positive PR, for instance), so that's kind of mutual relation between Code Club and Google. If Code Club starts promoting coding worst practices (say, let's use always static methods in Java) I would expect that Google, as a partner/sponsor, would react.
Google provides a lot of valuable services, but they have also some questionable practices, I don't see any reason why someone cannot speak about them.
I guess she wasn't spreading lies about Google or offending Google or Google employees, etc. so why the "gag order". Constructive criticism should be welcomed, especially in the strongly "meritocratic" circles.
"put the organisation ahead of your personal issues/complaints" way of thinking can be really dangerous because it allows to justify evil - "because organisation/my boss" said to do X or Y I can put aside by belives and opinions.
That's start from cheating older people to buy expensive phone plans or cable TV subscriptions ($1 a month only... for first 3 months out of 24).
Then we can justify bankers talking people into bad investments.
Then we can justify selling drugs that does not help anyone (but the company invested $XXXXXXXX, so the product must go to pharmacies).
rabc|11 years ago
Google are sponsoring Code Club not because they're good guys, but because they have some business interest in it.
They must be accountable for their actions, good or bad. Linda Sandvik expressed her believes as a person and she did great not accepting being silenced just because she was hurting the feelings of a big company.
vidarh|11 years ago
Yes, it may be "for the good of the organisation" in the short term. But if you allow the organisation to be corrupted by bending to the will of corporate sponsors that are treating it as a means of buying goodwill, it is not clear the organization will deserve to survive in the long term.
I must say that if Google asked for this, then I don't think they are a suitable sponsor. It sends all the wrong signals to me for an educational charity to sell the silence of it's board members.
In any case, this has already damaged my opinion of the Code Club board, regardless whether they made this decision unilaterally or under pressure. I hope it does not damage my opinion of Google too.
timigen|11 years ago
slantyyz|11 years ago
In my mind, the battle with the board should be "either we drop the evildoing sponsors or I quit", not "I want evildoing sponsors' money but I still want to retain the right to criticize them or I quit".
facepalm|11 years ago
petea|11 years ago
It sure sounds scary, but when I actually try to think about what it is actually bad about it, I can't really think of any.
Every single user Google got, they signed up voluntarily. Google never forced anyone to sign up for their services.
Google attempts to learn about its users just like every other companies. It's just that Google does it so much better than others. Do you get the label "corporate mass surveillance", when the company becomes so good learning about its users?
ssmoot|11 years ago
When I started using Google services many years ago, it definitely didn't occur to me they could basically track you across half the web. And you don't really get much of a choice in the matter. You can actively try to avoid Google sites and they're probably not missing out on a ton.
But more importantly, my grandmother certainly doesn't have any idea what they're doing.
And to be honest, I'm not much better off. So hard to consent to something if I'm not even sure what all they're gathering, and what they're doing with it.
chc|11 years ago
And yes, there comes a point where simple observation crosses the line. This is generally recognized by society. If I take a picture on the street and a particular person happens to be in it, that is generally OK. Most people wouldn't look askance at that. If I take a picture of the same person through their bedroom window, I'm liable to be arrested and labeled a creep. The specifics of information-gathering matter very much to how OK it is in terms of social acceptance.
mnarayan01|11 years ago
> I'm not comfortable with lying and so it is in my best interest to resign.
I'm not sure what part of that statement would be a lie?
Avenger42|11 years ago
"As a member of the board I am completely aligned with that view."
If she were asked to stop at "the board believe X are a tremendous partner", then as a member of the board, she'd be implying the last sentence, but not actually saying it. (I couldn't comment on whether or not she'd be fine with the implication either.)
vidarh|11 years ago
If the actions of this corporation means she thinks e.g. that they're an unsuitable partner, then doing as the board told her would be to lie. She may also very well consider it lying by omission if she is unable to state her true opinion about said corporation.
I saw her speak at one of the Croydon Tech City events, and it's sad to see one of the founders of such a great educational organization like Code Club effectively get pushed out over the (possibly perceived - it's not clear Google or whomever actually asked for this in any way) sensitivity of some corporate partner.
viraptor|11 years ago
That part - it looks like she does want to get into the specifics.
unknown|11 years ago
[deleted]
loso|11 years ago
If I am running a small company and your personal opinions are costing me money it would be crazy for me to keep you on. Not saying that is what happened here but that is more of a response from some of the comments I have read.
joelanman|11 years ago
wehadfun|11 years ago
automatthew|11 years ago
pessimizer|11 years ago
kghose|11 years ago
schoen|11 years ago
http://mako.cc/copyrighteous/google-has-most-of-my-email-bec...
(By the way, you can have this concern without thinking that Google is "evil": for example, you might think that it's risky to have so much e-mail in one centralized place and want Internet services to be redecentralized.)
kalleboo|11 years ago
shuzchen|11 years ago
peterwwillis|11 years ago
Bad-mouthing your sponsors is pretty universally considered a business faux pas. I don't see how it's either unusual or unethical to keep your opinions to yourself when the funding for your organization is on the line. That said, there's nothing wrong with caring about free speech more than teaching children to code. People are entitled to their priorities, after all.
otakucode|11 years ago
The belief that sponsorship can buy silence is disgusting and immoral. Sponsorship should convey absolutely nothing aside from receiving credit for assisting with the sponsored organizations goals.
pizza|11 years ago
bostonpete|11 years ago
trhway|11 years ago
sponsor is basically indirect employer. Don't bite the hand feeding you, it is just unethical. Publicly saying bad things about your employer is a bad thing. Resign and, only after that, say whatever you want as long as you don't violate the non-disclosures you may had signed.