If one is engaged in entirely legal activities - no money laundering, no drugs, no illegal weapons, no tax evasion, no slipping around international monetary controls - why would one want to use Bitcoin?
With the volatility of Bitcoin's price, transfer costs of traditional payment methods (1-3%) are totally dwarfed by the risk of holding Bitcoins for even a short period of time.
Maybe there is some opportunity for arbitrage in currency conversion rates, because of the low daily trading volume? But that doesn't seem like a likely profitable investment when you can lose 4% of your value at 3am because of a cascading margin call on a single exchange.
Other than currency speculation and the ease of evading the law, why would anyone want to exchange a reasonably stable national currency for bitcoin?
> why would anyone want to exchange a reasonable stable national currency for bitcoin?
Name me 10 currencies you'd be comfortable holding. It'll probably be very difficult. Fact is, billions use currencies with high inflation rates and with relatively short lifespans. And it's not just places like Zimbabwe that have many problems besides insane inflation the past decade. It's also relatively developed countries like Argentina that suffer from insane inflation. It's also small stable countries with a nice standard of living ($27k GDP PPP) with an educated population like Cyprus where many lost their savings as bank deposits were frozen or seized.
And that's just protection from governmental malfeasance that hundreds of millions have to be aware of. But it's also the fact that billions are unbanked. We at HN know more than anyone that providing a physical service (like mail delivery) is 1 million times more expensive than a digital service (like e-mail). Same for banking, for vaults, for ATMs, for services like lending, payments, remittance or money transfer. A digital version can be much cheaper, as well as more accessible. (for a bank you often need proof of identity, residence and employment. Good luck when you have no birth certificate, when you live in a slum, when you have an off-the-record job like selling fruit on the corner of the street). Digital banking can bring cheap financial services to hundreds of millions who don't have it, yet have (intermittent) access to networks as simple as SMS or radio, which can plug in to gateways to the bitcoin network.
Next up is us, the wealthy who enjoy relatively nice financial services. Bitcoin can save 1-3% in fees on any transaction. Imagine that there's a 1-3% tax on everything, not value added, everything, every transaction, whether B2C or B2B, and you have a way to remove that. That's very significant. Entire industries run on margins of 1-5%. Amazon's 2013 margin was 0.35%, imagine they could shave off even 0.5%.
Now that doesn't mean we all should actually buy and hold bitcoin. As you say, the volatility dwarfs this percentage. But volatility can be exclusive to investors. For example, Bitreserve (founded by the founder of CNET) lets you lock in the price. That means you can buy $100 of bitcoin, and see $100 on your account, as if it was Paypal. And then you can spend that $100 anytime you want, and it'll always be worth that much. On the backend the service then lets investors create a market to lock in that price, where various investors make short or long bets, a derivatives market can take out the volatility for the customer, thereby allowing people to use bitcoin, save costs, yet be shielded from volatility. That means business to business payments, too.
Besides that there's lots of other things. Like the fact it can be much more secure. Creditcard fraud is rampant as your password is essentially on the card and you have to share it everytime you pay, it's crazy. Chargeback fraud is an issue. Identity theft is therefore an issue. And you can envision crazy things like a Google driverless car paying, on the fly, to another driverless car infront of it, to move away, so that it can take that lane and go faster, because the one in the back is willing to pay extra for speed, and the one in front is okay with arriving a little later. Those kinds of thing can almost only be built on a global, permissionless protocol layer. So indeed none of us may use bitcoin, it may just be a machine to machine currency, it's too early to tell, it can have an impact in many different ways.
If we don't take a US-centric view of it where everything not within their financial system is illegal, what about countries such as Argentina? Bitcoin is global. As a digital ecommerce infrastructure there is a lot of value. For example, even in Canada and it was very difficult accepting foreign credit cards until Stripe came around. The merchant/CC industry moved so slowly it took decades longer than it should have to get adequate APIs. BTC doesn't have these limitations, especially for underdeveloped countries.
Vendors in the middle of Africa do not need a bank account and credit card merchant account to sell products online. Plus they can distribute the earnings to their family members working across the country with their mobile phone, without their family needing accounts.
Most Americans seem to be drawn to the decentralized nature but there are opportunities in other countries to escape corrupt or non-existent banks, or use it as an alternative to their countries even more unstable currencies.
1. As a consumer, it's fast and cheap. My dad in France can send money, instantly, to me who live in the US. No waiting days for wire transfers. No trip to a local Western Union branch necessary. No exhorbitant fee (worldwide remittance fees average 9%!) I don't even have to bother exchanging the coins with dollars to spend them, because more and more merchants begin to accept Bitcoin.
2. For consumers in countries who do not have a stable currency (Argentina with 30%+ year-over-year inflation!) - Bitcoin helps them protect the value of their savings.
3. As a merchant, Bitcoin reduces fraud to zero from my viewpoint. When my site receives a Bitcoin payment from some first-time customer from a foreign country, I can still ship the goods or services to him without worrying it is a fraudulent purchase that will be charged back, because Bitcoin payments are irreversible unlike credit cards.
4. As a merchant, I make more profits. CC payment processing companies typically charge approximately $2 on the purchase of a $100 item. My industry has thin profit margins: the item might have cost me $95 from my distributor, so I make only $3 profit per sale. However typical Bitcoin payment processors like Coinbase or Bitpay only charge 0-1% in fees. So I make $4-5 dollars of profit per sale. This is 33-66% higher profits per sale!
Because a lot of us dream of a decentralized, digital world currency enabling frictionless global trade, and we are willing to sacrifice exposure to volatility to achieve that goal.
And a lot of us have very specific attitudes toward the role of government in peaceful, non-exploitative trade, and see Bitcoin as a possible solution to what we see as constant governmental overreach.
In short, we're idealists. We've been at the forefront of many revolutionary technologies (Internet, 3d printing, etc.).
Speculation is legal and in my opinion very valid reason to use bitcoin. I'm in for mostly speculation and savings reason, as are many of the people who are into bitcoin and I know of. To date it has worked very well for me. Of course everyone has always said that I should not do this, but I'm very glad I did, and did not listen to my girlfriend, accountant and tax advisor.
I also use bitcoins, mostly because it is very frictionless. I actually have always small amount of unencrypted bitcoins in both my phone and computer for small day-to-day online purchases, tipping and clearing debts between friends.
Also the sovereignity appeals to me. I've never experienced any banking problems myself, but I've heard of many. Just the idea that solely me decides how my money moves appeals to me, and there is very limited possibility for anyone to touch my bitcoins.
Holding bitcoins isn't required to spend money using the Bitcoin network. Services can let you purchase bitcoins when you're making a payment and send them instantly. (They need your credit card as a backup payment method in case the ACH fails.) Sellers quote a Bitcoin price that is stable for 15 minutes. There is no price fluctuation during a purchase. It's effectively paying with your bank account over the Bitcoin network, and paying much lower fees as a result.
This is why paying with Bitcoin will be common within a year.
Ask yourself, do you know someone with relatives or business activities overseas? Then ask them about their experiences about doing international financial transactions of any kind.
It is expensive, time consuming, and generally painful. Consider buying something on Alibaba using bitcoin. I'd suggest that bitcoin adoption which is beholden to no particular country, opens up opportunities as a consumer, and more options for finding the right supplier overseas for business.
I've lived in the U.S., Asia and the Middle East, and to me bitcoin answers, or potentially answers, my needs.
And much as I have mixed feelings about paypal, I use it often for ebay and other vendors for convenience. Assuming their fees are not too high, I would not mind using them as an intermediary into traditional bank accounts.
- Political reasons, supporting a (electronic) currency that has minimal restrictions. (e.g. I don't need anyone's permission to install a Bitcoin app; whereas I'd need to jump through some hoops to get a bank account).
- Absolute control of my own money. My bitcoin payments will never be frozen, unlike my debit card + paypal have been.
- Ease of use; it is simply easier to pay via bitcoin (once you have the bitcoins) versus credit card. (I can click a link, my bitcoin client pops up preloaded with the amount, I click "pay". Only other thing that comes close is PayPal).
- Anonymity of purchases and donations. I can (and have) donated money to random people on internet forums without them needing to even know my (real name containing) email address (such as would be the case with PayPal). I've gifted online strangers with Pizza!
- Don't have to give vaguely untrusted merchants my card details. The most I'm trusting them with is to deliver the product.
- To support the potential future applications. This is programmable money with an API open to any software developer on the face of the earth.
- It's just freaking cool. It's like science fiction. It's like having a star wars credit chit. Which can be stored on my computer or phone. Paper wallets are cool too. So are brain wallets.
There are of course some downsides to Bitcoin, but I'm sure you can think of those yourself ;)
Sooner or later, a trusted financial institution will start to issue USD and EUR as colored coins on the Bitcoin network (or another cryptocurrency). From that point on, the volatility risk will be gone, but the benefits of a freely transferrable currency will remain.
With the benefits being: fast (with traditional currencies, settlement takes two days), easy to integrate, and open source. In particular, the latter point can offer a huge strategic advantage. Linux is successful because companies like IBM do not want to depend on Microsoft. Bitcoin can be successfuly for the same reason - namely because big corporations prefer depending on an open standard over depending on a competitor's payment system.
I'd imagine the greatest benefit would be as a low friction P2P payment option.
It's still hard to just send a fixed amount of money to someone with traditional payment systems, and if both parties have and use BTC, it would be pretty convenient.
Before anything else, Bitcoin is a way of transferring value anywhere cheaply, quickly, and without chargebacks, counterfeiting, or relying on a line of credit. If the exchange price stabilizes to the point where things can be priced only in Bitcoin, that's just a bonus.
People get too hung up on the idea of using Bitcoin in exactly the same manner as they do dollars. It may happen at some point, but for now it is used as a means of transferring value. If we consider only this use case, the advantages are abundantly clear. Then, we can start debating and speculating on Bitcoin's merit as a full currency.
The case is much clearer outside of the US, where the drawbacks of centralized currencies are more visible. For example, Argentina's rate of inflation was 30% in January alone.
The official Braintree post on the one-touch side of things is super interesting and vague[1] - does anyone know what the UX is like from a developers point of view?
Hey I work at Braintree on our SDKs. You can find the list of things you need to do to enable one touch here[1]. For Android there is nothing outside a normal Braintree integration you need to do and for iOS you need to register a URL type as well as make two changes in your app delegate to tell us about it.
We generally think about two ways you can integrate with Braintree on the front-end: the drop-in UI and custom. Drop-in [2] means you yield control to us, but you get a dead simple integration which includes one touch paypal and venmo out of the box. If you go the custom[3] route it's obviously more work to integrate, but adding one touch only requires some button that starts the paypal or venmo flow.
As in, do you have some empirical basis for that statement -- as in, you know, something related to actual statements made by the creator(s) of the original bitcoin protocol itself? Or is it just something you find nifty to believe in (therefore it must be true)?
I don't think bitcoin won yet. I haven't heard of paypal allowing people to pay for bitcoins yet. (as in transfers of funds to exchanges) They accept it for their service, but noone else can.
Bitcoin remains the best and most liquid savings vehicle over the last five years of its existence. Assuming savings = holding currency for over 1 year.
On 98% of the days that you could have purchased Bitcoin you would have realized an increase in purchasing power in a year's time. In those 2% of cases where you could have purchased Bitcoin and seen a loss over one year, you would have still seen an increase in purchasing power in another 300 days. (This is mostly dealing with the June 2011 bubble)
There has never been a time where you could hold Bitcoin for 2 years and lose purchasing power. On the contrary, holding Bitcoin brings on average a 5x per year return in purchasing power.
Past performance, future gains, blah blah. Judgement is about taking into consideration the facts we have now and comparing them against past performance. There are very good reasons why Bitcoin is valued around $6billion now and very good reasons to think it will be valued higher in the future.
You should be placing your life savings in Bitcoin, and only purchasing the USD that you require and holding it for as short of a period as possible. This would have been the best strategy for 98% of 1 year periods over the last five years, and 100% of 2 year periods over the last 5 years.
Debit cards that draw on Bitcoin balances and allow you to use the VISA and Mastercard networks should be the most interesting products -- because they allow you to expose yourself to the dollar's periodic collapse against Bitcoin for the shortest period of time.
I'm sure I'll be downvoted and that people will tell you that Bitcoin is super risky and that you should only invest what you can afford to lose -- but shouldn't that be the case for the dollar and not Bitcoin?
The dollar loses 90% of its purchasing power against Bitcoin on semi-regular schedules, and people keep purchasing more after each collapse. This routine should get old after a while, but that's what happens when you don't use Bitcoin as your unit of account!
You're using a time-span that's a full 20% of the item's lifespan. Anyone with a single college level statistics class wouldn't be able to keep a straight face reading this.
over the last five years of its existence
The first exchange didn't come online until summer of 2010.
What's the 1 year picture like for everyone who had coins in Mt. Gox?
Facepalm. I can pick 20 small cap stocks that have outperformed the dollar over the past year. That only makes them a good savings vehicle in hindsight.
Confusing short-term speculation with sustainable added value here.
[+] [-] dangerlibrary|11 years ago|reply
If one is engaged in entirely legal activities - no money laundering, no drugs, no illegal weapons, no tax evasion, no slipping around international monetary controls - why would one want to use Bitcoin?
With the volatility of Bitcoin's price, transfer costs of traditional payment methods (1-3%) are totally dwarfed by the risk of holding Bitcoins for even a short period of time.
Maybe there is some opportunity for arbitrage in currency conversion rates, because of the low daily trading volume? But that doesn't seem like a likely profitable investment when you can lose 4% of your value at 3am because of a cascading margin call on a single exchange.
Other than currency speculation and the ease of evading the law, why would anyone want to exchange a reasonably stable national currency for bitcoin?
[+] [-] IkmoIkmo|11 years ago|reply
Name me 10 currencies you'd be comfortable holding. It'll probably be very difficult. Fact is, billions use currencies with high inflation rates and with relatively short lifespans. And it's not just places like Zimbabwe that have many problems besides insane inflation the past decade. It's also relatively developed countries like Argentina that suffer from insane inflation. It's also small stable countries with a nice standard of living ($27k GDP PPP) with an educated population like Cyprus where many lost their savings as bank deposits were frozen or seized.
And that's just protection from governmental malfeasance that hundreds of millions have to be aware of. But it's also the fact that billions are unbanked. We at HN know more than anyone that providing a physical service (like mail delivery) is 1 million times more expensive than a digital service (like e-mail). Same for banking, for vaults, for ATMs, for services like lending, payments, remittance or money transfer. A digital version can be much cheaper, as well as more accessible. (for a bank you often need proof of identity, residence and employment. Good luck when you have no birth certificate, when you live in a slum, when you have an off-the-record job like selling fruit on the corner of the street). Digital banking can bring cheap financial services to hundreds of millions who don't have it, yet have (intermittent) access to networks as simple as SMS or radio, which can plug in to gateways to the bitcoin network.
Next up is us, the wealthy who enjoy relatively nice financial services. Bitcoin can save 1-3% in fees on any transaction. Imagine that there's a 1-3% tax on everything, not value added, everything, every transaction, whether B2C or B2B, and you have a way to remove that. That's very significant. Entire industries run on margins of 1-5%. Amazon's 2013 margin was 0.35%, imagine they could shave off even 0.5%.
Now that doesn't mean we all should actually buy and hold bitcoin. As you say, the volatility dwarfs this percentage. But volatility can be exclusive to investors. For example, Bitreserve (founded by the founder of CNET) lets you lock in the price. That means you can buy $100 of bitcoin, and see $100 on your account, as if it was Paypal. And then you can spend that $100 anytime you want, and it'll always be worth that much. On the backend the service then lets investors create a market to lock in that price, where various investors make short or long bets, a derivatives market can take out the volatility for the customer, thereby allowing people to use bitcoin, save costs, yet be shielded from volatility. That means business to business payments, too.
Besides that there's lots of other things. Like the fact it can be much more secure. Creditcard fraud is rampant as your password is essentially on the card and you have to share it everytime you pay, it's crazy. Chargeback fraud is an issue. Identity theft is therefore an issue. And you can envision crazy things like a Google driverless car paying, on the fly, to another driverless car infront of it, to move away, so that it can take that lane and go faster, because the one in the back is willing to pay extra for speed, and the one in front is okay with arriving a little later. Those kinds of thing can almost only be built on a global, permissionless protocol layer. So indeed none of us may use bitcoin, it may just be a machine to machine currency, it's too early to tell, it can have an impact in many different ways.
[+] [-] dmix|11 years ago|reply
Vendors in the middle of Africa do not need a bank account and credit card merchant account to sell products online. Plus they can distribute the earnings to their family members working across the country with their mobile phone, without their family needing accounts.
Most Americans seem to be drawn to the decentralized nature but there are opportunities in other countries to escape corrupt or non-existent banks, or use it as an alternative to their countries even more unstable currencies.
[+] [-] mrb|11 years ago|reply
1. As a consumer, it's fast and cheap. My dad in France can send money, instantly, to me who live in the US. No waiting days for wire transfers. No trip to a local Western Union branch necessary. No exhorbitant fee (worldwide remittance fees average 9%!) I don't even have to bother exchanging the coins with dollars to spend them, because more and more merchants begin to accept Bitcoin.
2. For consumers in countries who do not have a stable currency (Argentina with 30%+ year-over-year inflation!) - Bitcoin helps them protect the value of their savings.
3. As a merchant, Bitcoin reduces fraud to zero from my viewpoint. When my site receives a Bitcoin payment from some first-time customer from a foreign country, I can still ship the goods or services to him without worrying it is a fraudulent purchase that will be charged back, because Bitcoin payments are irreversible unlike credit cards.
4. As a merchant, I make more profits. CC payment processing companies typically charge approximately $2 on the purchase of a $100 item. My industry has thin profit margins: the item might have cost me $95 from my distributor, so I make only $3 profit per sale. However typical Bitcoin payment processors like Coinbase or Bitpay only charge 0-1% in fees. So I make $4-5 dollars of profit per sale. This is 33-66% higher profits per sale!
[+] [-] jnbiche|11 years ago|reply
And a lot of us have very specific attitudes toward the role of government in peaceful, non-exploitative trade, and see Bitcoin as a possible solution to what we see as constant governmental overreach.
In short, we're idealists. We've been at the forefront of many revolutionary technologies (Internet, 3d printing, etc.).
[+] [-] jerguismi|11 years ago|reply
I also use bitcoins, mostly because it is very frictionless. I actually have always small amount of unencrypted bitcoins in both my phone and computer for small day-to-day online purchases, tipping and clearing debts between friends.
Also the sovereignity appeals to me. I've never experienced any banking problems myself, but I've heard of many. Just the idea that solely me decides how my money moves appeals to me, and there is very limited possibility for anyone to touch my bitcoins.
[+] [-] natrius|11 years ago|reply
This is why paying with Bitcoin will be common within a year.
[+] [-] alkimie2|11 years ago|reply
It is expensive, time consuming, and generally painful. Consider buying something on Alibaba using bitcoin. I'd suggest that bitcoin adoption which is beholden to no particular country, opens up opportunities as a consumer, and more options for finding the right supplier overseas for business.
I've lived in the U.S., Asia and the Middle East, and to me bitcoin answers, or potentially answers, my needs.
And much as I have mixed feelings about paypal, I use it often for ebay and other vendors for convenience. Assuming their fees are not too high, I would not mind using them as an intermediary into traditional bank accounts.
[+] [-] doctorfoo|11 years ago|reply
- Absolute control of my own money. My bitcoin payments will never be frozen, unlike my debit card + paypal have been.
- Ease of use; it is simply easier to pay via bitcoin (once you have the bitcoins) versus credit card. (I can click a link, my bitcoin client pops up preloaded with the amount, I click "pay". Only other thing that comes close is PayPal).
- Anonymity of purchases and donations. I can (and have) donated money to random people on internet forums without them needing to even know my (real name containing) email address (such as would be the case with PayPal). I've gifted online strangers with Pizza!
- Don't have to give vaguely untrusted merchants my card details. The most I'm trusting them with is to deliver the product.
- To support the potential future applications. This is programmable money with an API open to any software developer on the face of the earth.
- It's just freaking cool. It's like science fiction. It's like having a star wars credit chit. Which can be stored on my computer or phone. Paper wallets are cool too. So are brain wallets.
There are of course some downsides to Bitcoin, but I'm sure you can think of those yourself ;)
[+] [-] unknown|11 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] fredbrown|11 years ago|reply
What's wrong with speculation and evading government interference?
[+] [-] atmosx|11 years ago|reply
For example if I need to send money to China within an hour without prior notice, BTC would be extremely handy.
However, I don't know or can think of any such because turning BTC into local currency is both hard and expensive.
[+] [-] Hermel|11 years ago|reply
With the benefits being: fast (with traditional currencies, settlement takes two days), easy to integrate, and open source. In particular, the latter point can offer a huge strategic advantage. Linux is successful because companies like IBM do not want to depend on Microsoft. Bitcoin can be successfuly for the same reason - namely because big corporations prefer depending on an open standard over depending on a competitor's payment system.
[+] [-] ewoodrich|11 years ago|reply
It's still hard to just send a fixed amount of money to someone with traditional payment systems, and if both parties have and use BTC, it would be pretty convenient.
[+] [-] ryangittins|11 years ago|reply
People get too hung up on the idea of using Bitcoin in exactly the same manner as they do dollars. It may happen at some point, but for now it is used as a means of transferring value. If we consider only this use case, the advantages are abundantly clear. Then, we can start debating and speculating on Bitcoin's merit as a full currency.
[+] [-] martindale|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] guelo|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dalore|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sebicas|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] awt|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] johnyzee|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Mahn|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cvburgess|11 years ago|reply
[1] https://www.braintreepayments.com/blog/one-touch
[+] [-] benmills|11 years ago|reply
We generally think about two ways you can integrate with Braintree on the front-end: the drop-in UI and custom. Drop-in [2] means you yield control to us, but you get a dead simple integration which includes one touch paypal and venmo out of the box. If you go the custom[3] route it's obviously more work to integrate, but adding one touch only requires some button that starts the paypal or venmo flow.
Edit: You can also download ParkWhiz (https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/parkwhiz-find-book-parking/i...) and install the PayPal app to see the user experience for yourself!
[1] https://developers.braintreepayments.com/ios/guides/one-touc... [2] https://developers.braintreepayments.com/ios/sdk/client/drop... [3] https://developers.braintreepayments.com/ios/sdk/client/payp...
[+] [-] blueking|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dreamweapon|11 years ago|reply
As in, do you have some empirical basis for that statement -- as in, you know, something related to actual statements made by the creator(s) of the original bitcoin protocol itself? Or is it just something you find nifty to believe in (therefore it must be true)?
Please clarify.
[+] [-] innguest|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|11 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] ycombinatoracc|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] viraptor|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] atmosx|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sassypants|11 years ago|reply
On 98% of the days that you could have purchased Bitcoin you would have realized an increase in purchasing power in a year's time. In those 2% of cases where you could have purchased Bitcoin and seen a loss over one year, you would have still seen an increase in purchasing power in another 300 days. (This is mostly dealing with the June 2011 bubble)
There has never been a time where you could hold Bitcoin for 2 years and lose purchasing power. On the contrary, holding Bitcoin brings on average a 5x per year return in purchasing power.
Past performance, future gains, blah blah. Judgement is about taking into consideration the facts we have now and comparing them against past performance. There are very good reasons why Bitcoin is valued around $6billion now and very good reasons to think it will be valued higher in the future.
You should be placing your life savings in Bitcoin, and only purchasing the USD that you require and holding it for as short of a period as possible. This would have been the best strategy for 98% of 1 year periods over the last five years, and 100% of 2 year periods over the last 5 years.
Debit cards that draw on Bitcoin balances and allow you to use the VISA and Mastercard networks should be the most interesting products -- because they allow you to expose yourself to the dollar's periodic collapse against Bitcoin for the shortest period of time.
I'm sure I'll be downvoted and that people will tell you that Bitcoin is super risky and that you should only invest what you can afford to lose -- but shouldn't that be the case for the dollar and not Bitcoin?
The dollar loses 90% of its purchasing power against Bitcoin on semi-regular schedules, and people keep purchasing more after each collapse. This routine should get old after a while, but that's what happens when you don't use Bitcoin as your unit of account!
[+] [-] bdcravens|11 years ago|reply
over the last five years of its existence The first exchange didn't come online until summer of 2010.
What's the 1 year picture like for everyone who had coins in Mt. Gox?
[+] [-] battani|11 years ago|reply
Confusing short-term speculation with sustainable added value here.
[+] [-] unknown|11 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] asdfasdfedd|11 years ago|reply