Successful Silicon Valley entrepreneurs and VC's talk about failure like it's a good thing. It teaches us lessons etc. That's an easy outlook to have from within the walls of multi-million dollar homes and offices. The effect of failure, to them, is that their ridiculous net worth will be slightly less ridiculous. It has exactly zero impact on their daily lives.
The reality is that most entrepreneurs - those that do not have the pedigree to be handed huge checks from VC's - have everything on the line. To most, failure means that they and their families will suffer severely. People often start businesses because they have needs or responsibilities that are above their earning power at a regular job. When you combine those pressures with the high failure rate of startups, you get a high suicide rate. It's sad, but it's not a problem that is unique to the Downtown Project.
>People often start businesses because they have needs or responsibilities that are above their earning power at a regular job.
while it may make sense for established types of businesses - open a restaurant, your own consulting, etc... it doesn't make sense for innovation domain which is more close to gambling (1/36 roulette, 1/10 hi-tech startups). MS, Apple, Google, FB - were started by people in the "no-pressure" situation.
I can't help but conclude that someone who is so obsessed with creating "Happiness" is actually not that happy. Otherwise why would he be chasing it with such desperation? One profile of Tony Hsieh said that he has literally read hundreds of books about how to create happiness, and of course he wrote one too.
A person who is happy is not reading hundreds of books about happiness. And that person will also not become happy through doing that. Happiness is not something you can create externally. (Yes, if you're starving and homeless then having some money and material possessions would definitely make you happy. But we are talking about multimillionaires and billionaires here who are not in that situation.)
I think the entire downtown project has much less to do with creating some sort of startup utopia and more with something that Tony himself is seeking. But he won't find it outside of himself.
“Don’t aim at success - the more you aim at it and make it a target, the more you are going to miss it. For success, like happiness, cannot be pursued; it must ensue...as the unintended side-effect of one’s personal dedication to a course greater than oneself.” -Viktor Frankl
I don't understand the resistance (not you specifically, but our culture in general) to treating happiness as a learnable skill. There's plenty of evidence to suggest that it is.
"A person who is good at software development is not reading hundreds of books about software development" doesn't strike me as true. People who are really good at something often spend far more effort to continue to improve than someone who is mediocre.
I have a strong suspicion that our modern society's obsession with pursuing happiness as an end goal is not healthy. Maybe what we need is an underlying sense of contentment.
"Ask yourself whether you are happy, and you cease to be so. The only chance is to treat, not happiness, but some end external to it as the purpose of life. Let your self-consciousness, your scrutiny, your self-interrogation exhaust themselves on that." -
John Stuart Mill
I (respectfully) disagree -- I think modern society's obsession with pursuing _material wealth & riches_ is not healthy, but I think the pursuit of happiness is a worthy goal. The two, of course, are often confused, but happiness can be found in many socioeconomic forms, and, frankly, I think it should be the goal. If you're happy - regardless of the size of your home or your bank account - what else do you really need?
I do not think the unhealthiness is in the goal. Goals are fine, and happiness is natural to want. Obsessions, on the other hand, are worth watching out for. They will consume you.
It occurs to me that happiness could be like profits: It is an indication of success; a way to measure it (think a/b testing), but is not itself success.
To toot the counter culture horn, it's the pursuit of profit as the end-goal that makes the world a rotten place... ironically, does the pursuit of happiness as an end-goal have similar issues?
To rephrase: Like profits, happiness is a way to tell whether or not what you're doing is working, but it's not what you're doing.
● Same as the Facebook Depression effect: Seeing your "friends" have awesome lives makes you feel more miserable about your own.
● Being surrounded by happiness /or/ the expectation of happiness makes people feel behind, like losers, and makes them depressed.
● Depression is highest in 1st world countries.
Now, think about Las Vegas, it's a "celebratory / party" town. Lights, glamour, parties, fun times, gambling, excess, big business, big hotels. Its atmosphere only exaggerates the idea that "everyone is doing fine but you, you're a loser". Building a startup community there is probably not a good idea.
This was a pretty sad read. I JUST visited Container Park in Downtown Vegas this past weekend and it seemed to have a pretty good crowd with both locals and tourists.
I do believe though that if it weren't for my knowledge of the project I wouldn't even know about the area. In fact, many locals I've met still don't know about Container Park. So, they do have some marketing to work on I guess.
I read Tony Hsieh's book with hopes for an inspirational read. I came away from the book thinking that it totally sounded cult-like. Making one of the fundamental tenets of Zappos to be working with people with whom you'd like to drink after work sounded crazy, especially when the decision became not just drink together after work, but also move to an entirely different city where you don't know anyone else and don't plan to meet anyone else except those who are already part of "the group".
When people think like this, I get really worried. Like companies that tout the "Sunday test". Would you come into the office just to hang out with that guy on a Sunday, for no other reason, just want to hang out? At work, masks come on for various personal reasons. Outside of work, masks come off for various personal reasons. Rare is the person who can be the same person in work and out of work. And for the same reason, rare is the person who can suffice with a support network only at work.
Mods: what happened to the word "suicides" in the title of this story?
It's not omitted to fit the 80 character limit; the title with the word included is still underneath that.
It's not omitted because the article isn't about suicides; there's three of them discussed.
I submitted the link, and I could have sworn I just copied and pasted the full title it's running under at Re/code, which is "The Downtown Project Suicides: Can the Pursuit of Happiness Kill You?"
If I'm misremembering and the word wasn't in the submission, I apologize in advance. But if it was there, and someone took it out, that seems like it does a real disservice to the article by downplaying the gravity of what it's actually about. (I'd edit it myself to put it in, but it looks like my window for editing the submission has closed.)
We took it out because it's obviously baity. "Kill you" is enough bait for one title.
Edit: My mistake; we'll put it back.
Edit 2: Now that this thread has subsided, there was another reason why I edited the title that way.
Ever since I read Cialdini's "Influence" I've been sensitive to the dismaying evidence that publishing suicides encourages some people to kill themselves. I felt uneasy having a title blaring the word "Suicides" about a tragic story—in the startup world, especially—on HN's front page. No doubt the Werther Effect is small, but this is a law-of-large-numbers situation, so I'd rather over-react than under-react.
If anyone happens to be having suicidal thoughts around here: please tell someone. If you don't have anyone to tell, tell me. My email is in my profile.
[+] [-] downandout|11 years ago|reply
The reality is that most entrepreneurs - those that do not have the pedigree to be handed huge checks from VC's - have everything on the line. To most, failure means that they and their families will suffer severely. People often start businesses because they have needs or responsibilities that are above their earning power at a regular job. When you combine those pressures with the high failure rate of startups, you get a high suicide rate. It's sad, but it's not a problem that is unique to the Downtown Project.
[+] [-] trhway|11 years ago|reply
while it may make sense for established types of businesses - open a restaurant, your own consulting, etc... it doesn't make sense for innovation domain which is more close to gambling (1/36 roulette, 1/10 hi-tech startups). MS, Apple, Google, FB - were started by people in the "no-pressure" situation.
[+] [-] DarenAptk|11 years ago|reply
A person who is happy is not reading hundreds of books about happiness. And that person will also not become happy through doing that. Happiness is not something you can create externally. (Yes, if you're starving and homeless then having some money and material possessions would definitely make you happy. But we are talking about multimillionaires and billionaires here who are not in that situation.)
I think the entire downtown project has much less to do with creating some sort of startup utopia and more with something that Tony himself is seeking. But he won't find it outside of himself.
[+] [-] technotony|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] caseydurfee|11 years ago|reply
"A person who is good at software development is not reading hundreds of books about software development" doesn't strike me as true. People who are really good at something often spend far more effort to continue to improve than someone who is mediocre.
[+] [-] budu3|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hyp0|11 years ago|reply
http://theliterarylink.com/anti_selfconsciousness.html
[+] [-] nlh|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pkghost|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] acornax|11 years ago|reply
edit: I agree with your ninja edit.
[+] [-] RangerScience|11 years ago|reply
To toot the counter culture horn, it's the pursuit of profit as the end-goal that makes the world a rotten place... ironically, does the pursuit of happiness as an end-goal have similar issues?
To rephrase: Like profits, happiness is a way to tell whether or not what you're doing is working, but it's not what you're doing.
[+] [-] ChrisNorstrom|11 years ago|reply
● Being surrounded by happiness /or/ the expectation of happiness makes people feel behind, like losers, and makes them depressed.
● Depression is highest in 1st world countries.
Now, think about Las Vegas, it's a "celebratory / party" town. Lights, glamour, parties, fun times, gambling, excess, big business, big hotels. Its atmosphere only exaggerates the idea that "everyone is doing fine but you, you're a loser". Building a startup community there is probably not a good idea.
[+] [-] kin|11 years ago|reply
I do believe though that if it weren't for my knowledge of the project I wouldn't even know about the area. In fact, many locals I've met still don't know about Container Park. So, they do have some marketing to work on I guess.
[+] [-] qthrul|11 years ago|reply
http://downtowncontainerpark.com/events/
Also... a MASSIVE robotic fire breathing praying mantis.
What's not to love?
My next recommendation is Red Rock National Conservation Area.
The strip is just a the strip. YMMV.
[+] [-] qthrul|11 years ago|reply
http://dtlv.com/2014/09/30/downtown-project-layoffs-tony-hsi...
[+] [-] trhway|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] PakG1|11 years ago|reply
What I originally thought. http://www.pakg1.net/2011/05/problem-with-team-building-init...
When people think like this, I get really worried. Like companies that tout the "Sunday test". Would you come into the office just to hang out with that guy on a Sunday, for no other reason, just want to hang out? At work, masks come on for various personal reasons. Outside of work, masks come off for various personal reasons. Rare is the person who can be the same person in work and out of work. And for the same reason, rare is the person who can suffice with a support network only at work.
[+] [-] smacktoward|11 years ago|reply
It's not omitted to fit the 80 character limit; the title with the word included is still underneath that.
It's not omitted because the article isn't about suicides; there's three of them discussed.
I submitted the link, and I could have sworn I just copied and pasted the full title it's running under at Re/code, which is "The Downtown Project Suicides: Can the Pursuit of Happiness Kill You?"
If I'm misremembering and the word wasn't in the submission, I apologize in advance. But if it was there, and someone took it out, that seems like it does a real disservice to the article by downplaying the gravity of what it's actually about. (I'd edit it myself to put it in, but it looks like my window for editing the submission has closed.)
[+] [-] dang|11 years ago|reply
Edit: My mistake; we'll put it back.
Edit 2: Now that this thread has subsided, there was another reason why I edited the title that way.
Ever since I read Cialdini's "Influence" I've been sensitive to the dismaying evidence that publishing suicides encourages some people to kill themselves. I felt uneasy having a title blaring the word "Suicides" about a tragic story—in the startup world, especially—on HN's front page. No doubt the Werther Effect is small, but this is a law-of-large-numbers situation, so I'd rather over-react than under-react.
If anyone happens to be having suicidal thoughts around here: please tell someone. If you don't have anyone to tell, tell me. My email is in my profile.