Having panned Plastc yesterday, this is like night and day - where Plastc is trying to solve "I have too many credit cards in my wallet" with an overdose of technology, Final is solving an actual real problem (credit card fraud) with an intelligent use of technology.
In fact, I don't even want a physical card (chip and pin will make that difficult anyway), I just want an online service that will generate a new credit card number for me on demand.
The budget tracking etc. is nice (and I understand why you want to add it for customer engagement and blah) but I'd love a totally stripped down service that gives me card numbers and pings me when they're used - and I would happily pay for it.
Is credit card fraud really a big problem (for consumers I'm asking, not banks or merchants)? In my experience, chargebacks are pretty easy, debit or credit. Same with reporting a lost or stolen card and voiding any purchase made on it. And every credit card I've ever had has been remarkably proactive about alerting me to possible fraudulent activity.
> I just want an online service that will generate a new credit card number for me on demand.
I'm wondering why it's not more widespread. My (small) bank has been providing me a unique card number for every purchase for at least the last 5 years, and they're not usually on the cutting edge regarding banking technology. You can also give a maximum amount that can be withdrawn on the card, and once someone has withdrawn money using that number, no one else can do it.
Final is what we built to take back control of our own credit cards for how and when we’re charged, instead of leaving it up to merchants. That led to merchant-specific numbers and limits, managed automatically, as well as transparency in statements. It’s our stake in the ground, a way to shift the culture in credit towards consumer friendliness.
The same video production company is being used all over for startups like this. It does not imply any relationship to coin or any others. http://sandwichvideo.com/
As some have pointed out, Citi had this[1] since about 2004, Fleet/Bank of America [2] had it in their setup as well for as long as i can remember.
The problem is going to be PCI compliance - the rules that govern merchant procedure for accepting physical credit cards. Specifically, the last 4 digits must be visually validated on the card and typed in to avoid cloned cards (chips largely solve this) in most stores.
Furthermore, giving a new CC number to each transaction is going to deplete the pool of available CC numbers rather soon (as im sure everyone knows, CC number is not just random collection of 16 numbers 0-9).
As other people pointed out, this solves a non-problem: if i don't want to be liable for a fraudulent purchase, i just use a credit card, not a debit card. In case of CC fraud, it is the MERCHANT who is responsible, not the customer or the bank.
Monitoring software that flags "odd" purchases is all that's needed - and banks have been running such things for ages.
Yes, there is hassle if your CC gets lifted/swiped, but chances are, its not an evil hacker doing it, but that cute waitress at your local bar with a $30 ghost reader in her hand.
Unless the physical card generates a new number on EACH swipe, it is just another example of technology looking to complicate an otherwise streamlined process.
I was very interested in something like this few years back. But, my quick research showed me that
(a) A company called Orbiscom (acquired by MasterCard) had patents in this space [1], and they are the ones behind Bank of America's ShopSafe and a few other such services offered by various banks.
(b) Almost all of those services (except for ShopSafe) are now discontinued. Which indicates that either users don't care about something like this, or that banks don't like offering something like this for some reason. Maybe that explains why nobody knows about MaskMe [2] etc.
I would be curious how Final guys are overcoming those issues.
The industry goes much deeper than that, and there are many vendors that also issue virtual cards via other methods. Checkout Wex & Conferma for a few.
A few big changes are happening on the backend of payments that we also plan on leveraging. See this spec if you want to learn more about them: http://www.emvco.com/specifications.aspx?id=263
"A credit card built for the 21st century" is an oxymoron. It's like saying a car phone built for the 21st century.
For the love of all that is holy and sacred, please eliminate the need to carry cards at all. Just let me pay with my phone. Put my drivers license, health insurance card, membership cards, gift cards, car keys, and payment methods into my phone. All of this already exists in some form or another, but Apple and Google have utterly failed to make it work in the real world outside of a few outliers like Starbucks.
It's 2014: there is no reason I should have to carry keys and a wallet when I have a modern cell phone. Eliminate paper receipts while you're at it; email them or aggregate in some other way digitally. Save 10 million trees.
Ugh... I'm not doing the "There are X people ahead of you. Get access sooner by inviting your friends!" thing again. I got tricked into doing it for RobinHood.io over a year ago, convinced a bunch of friends to sign up, but there's still no product in sight.
> Tired of your monthly yoga pants subscription? Or a two-week "free" trial that lasted four months? Just deactivate that card number. It's that easy.
I'm a little wary of this functionality. Although most responsible businesses just cancel the subscription after a declined payment, some will sic a debt collection agency on you because they claim you owe them the money. My Google-fu is failing me now, but I know I've read of this happening recently.
I'm also wondering how the magnetic strip on the back works. Does that get changed with each swipe as well? That would be really nice functionality to have, though I understand the complexity of implementation.
Chip and PIN, at least in the US, is useless right now because virtually no merchants have the equipment. As for the browser plugin that generates a unique number for each transaction, PayPal had this in 2008 and closed it down. I'm not exactly sure why, but if they couldn't make it work, I have my doubts about newcomers being successful with it.
The one interesting thing this card can do is disable charging to the physical card number when it is seperated from the phone. Of course that will be annoying when someone wants to buy something after they have left their phone in the car or had their phone lost or stolen. It's also unclear if simply running out of battery on the phone would disable the card. If my understanding of their system is correct, it would.
I've actually noticed a lot of merchants have installed chip-and-pin compatible terminals over the last 6 months or so. (mostly at the larger retailers)
Am I crazy or doesn't this (temporary credit card numbers) already exist with a lot of major credit card vendors? I remember getting an Amex Blue card back in the early 2000's because it could do just that thing...
This is awesome! I love the idea and was actually discussing a couple months ago why this doesn't exist yet with current CC companies like AMEX or Visa.
All these all-in-one "supercards" coming out are cool, but this is beyond cool and serves a real purpose.
I imagine they'll add a sharing component to purchases eventually too. This way you just spin up a new credit card number that is split between a group of people (e.g.: at a dinner for the check) and set percentages for everyone. You no longer have to ask waiters to split bills, Venmo friends after, etc.
I can't help but think this must be vaporware. I worked in the credit card industry for several years. A credit card company is not something anybody can just start from scratch - you need data to model chargeoffs, fraud, spend, ect in order to be profitable. And unlike Robinhood, you need a source of capital to fund the cash you float, usually securitization or deposits.
I may be completely wrong, but I simply don't buy it. There's so much more to a credit card product aside from the nice-sounding features they have on their landing pages.
I'm happy to say that we're not vaporware. We're partnering with a bank that provides all of the pieces you mentioned. Our model is similar to that of Simple, which partnered with Bancorp Bank to launch their product.
[+] [-] Someone1234|11 years ago|reply
This is something I have been asking for since forever! People on here claimed it was "impossible" because of how credit cards work, I guess not...
> Tired of your monthly yoga pants subscription? Or a two-week "free" trial that lasted four months? Just deactivate that card number. It's that easy.
They need to be careful what they advise. That advice could (and likely WILL) result in people getting taken to collections.
Don't like your ISP? Just cancel the CC number, then 12 months later get a bailiff turn up and seize your stuff...
[+] [-] untog|11 years ago|reply
In fact, I don't even want a physical card (chip and pin will make that difficult anyway), I just want an online service that will generate a new credit card number for me on demand.
The budget tracking etc. is nice (and I understand why you want to add it for customer engagement and blah) but I'd love a totally stripped down service that gives me card numbers and pings me when they're used - and I would happily pay for it.
[+] [-] hammock|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] eli|11 years ago|reply
It's mildly inconvenient to update my recurring billing info, but it's not something I feel like I need a product to solve.
[+] [-] mraison|11 years ago|reply
I'm wondering why it's not more widespread. My (small) bank has been providing me a unique card number for every purchase for at least the last 5 years, and they're not usually on the cutting edge regarding banking technology. You can also give a maximum amount that can be withdrawn on the card, and once someone has withdrawn money using that number, no one else can do it.
[+] [-] Fuzzwah|11 years ago|reply
Too bad they got caught up in the stupid anti-online poker bollocks a while back and can't service US customers.
[+] [-] andrewdietrich|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] arfrank|11 years ago|reply
Final is what we built to take back control of our own credit cards for how and when we’re charged, instead of leaving it up to merchants. That led to merchant-specific numbers and limits, managed automatically, as well as transparency in statements. It’s our stake in the ground, a way to shift the culture in credit towards consumer friendliness.
Happy to answer questions
[+] [-] crimsonalucard|11 years ago|reply
I'm really pissed off I paid for coin. I'm not going to pay a dime for plastc or this until it's released.
[+] [-] mcdavis|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] chrisbolt|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] adamfishman|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fireworks10|11 years ago|reply
[1] https://twitter.com/coin/status/519895644761096193
[+] [-] than|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rbinv|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|11 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] general_failure|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ep103|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vishalzone2002|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] thrownaway2424|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] drglitch|11 years ago|reply
The problem is going to be PCI compliance - the rules that govern merchant procedure for accepting physical credit cards. Specifically, the last 4 digits must be visually validated on the card and typed in to avoid cloned cards (chips largely solve this) in most stores.
Furthermore, giving a new CC number to each transaction is going to deplete the pool of available CC numbers rather soon (as im sure everyone knows, CC number is not just random collection of 16 numbers 0-9).
As other people pointed out, this solves a non-problem: if i don't want to be liable for a fraudulent purchase, i just use a credit card, not a debit card. In case of CC fraud, it is the MERCHANT who is responsible, not the customer or the bank.
Monitoring software that flags "odd" purchases is all that's needed - and banks have been running such things for ages.
Yes, there is hassle if your CC gets lifted/swiped, but chances are, its not an evil hacker doing it, but that cute waitress at your local bar with a $30 ghost reader in her hand.
Unless the physical card generates a new number on EACH swipe, it is just another example of technology looking to complicate an otherwise streamlined process.
/rant over :)
[1] https://www.cardbenefits.citi.com/Products/Virtual-Account-N... [2] http://lifehacker.com/5831160/use-virtual-credit-card-number... [3] http://www.getcreditcardnumbers.com/
[+] [-] namityadav|11 years ago|reply
(a) A company called Orbiscom (acquired by MasterCard) had patents in this space [1], and they are the ones behind Bank of America's ShopSafe and a few other such services offered by various banks.
(b) Almost all of those services (except for ShopSafe) are now discontinued. Which indicates that either users don't care about something like this, or that banks don't like offering something like this for some reason. Maybe that explains why nobody knows about MaskMe [2] etc.
I would be curious how Final guys are overcoming those issues.
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controlled_payment_number
[2] https://www.abine.com/maskme/features/cards/
[+] [-] arfrank|11 years ago|reply
A few big changes are happening on the backend of payments that we also plan on leveraging. See this spec if you want to learn more about them: http://www.emvco.com/specifications.aspx?id=263
[+] [-] rafaqueque|11 years ago|reply
It's getting weird.
[+] [-] unknown|11 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] bicknergseng|11 years ago|reply
For the love of all that is holy and sacred, please eliminate the need to carry cards at all. Just let me pay with my phone. Put my drivers license, health insurance card, membership cards, gift cards, car keys, and payment methods into my phone. All of this already exists in some form or another, but Apple and Google have utterly failed to make it work in the real world outside of a few outliers like Starbucks.
It's 2014: there is no reason I should have to carry keys and a wallet when I have a modern cell phone. Eliminate paper receipts while you're at it; email them or aggregate in some other way digitally. Save 10 million trees.
[+] [-] eastbayjake|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tkmcc|11 years ago|reply
I'm a little wary of this functionality. Although most responsible businesses just cancel the subscription after a declined payment, some will sic a debt collection agency on you because they claim you owe them the money. My Google-fu is failing me now, but I know I've read of this happening recently.
I'm also wondering how the magnetic strip on the back works. Does that get changed with each swipe as well? That would be really nice functionality to have, though I understand the complexity of implementation.
[+] [-] sp332|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|11 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] andor436|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] boristhespider|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tzz|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gtCameron|11 years ago|reply
If it's the former what kind of card is it (Visa, Mastercard, or something different)?
[+] [-] DangerousPie|11 years ago|reply
Is it really that easy though? Sure, they won't be able to charge you anymore but that doesn't mean that you didn't enter a binding contract.
What you are suggesting here sounds neither legal nor ethical.
[+] [-] headgasket|11 years ago|reply
http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-12-05/adam-lisagor...
[+] [-] downandout|11 years ago|reply
The one interesting thing this card can do is disable charging to the physical card number when it is seperated from the phone. Of course that will be annoying when someone wants to buy something after they have left their phone in the car or had their phone lost or stolen. It's also unclear if simply running out of battery on the phone would disable the card. If my understanding of their system is correct, it would.
[+] [-] andrewpi|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] coldcode|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tdicola|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] scotchio|11 years ago|reply
All these all-in-one "supercards" coming out are cool, but this is beyond cool and serves a real purpose.
I imagine they'll add a sharing component to purchases eventually too. This way you just spin up a new credit card number that is split between a group of people (e.g.: at a dinner for the check) and set percentages for everyone. You no longer have to ask waiters to split bills, Venmo friends after, etc.
[+] [-] rjf1331|11 years ago|reply
I may be completely wrong, but I simply don't buy it. There's so much more to a credit card product aside from the nice-sounding features they have on their landing pages.
[+] [-] andrewdietrich|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] donniefitz2|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] w4|11 years ago|reply
Notice the same guy in nearly every video.