Wow, all evidence suggests that the team in charge of this at Groupon is acting in bad faith, trying to bulldoze over a non-profit with fewer financial resources. (I doubt Groupon would ever attempt something like this against a financially-well-backed brand such as, say, "Apple.")
Consider: (1) it's essentially impossible that no one involved had ever heard of the Gnome desktop (it's the top result when I search for "gnome" on Google); and (2) after being contacted by the Gnome Foundation, Groupon filed even more trademark applications.
There are a lot of decent, hard-working hackers at Groupon, and quite a few of them, I'm sure, regularly visit HN. They won't be happy to find out about this.
Are there any Groupon insiders here willing to comment on this, maybe anonymously?
--
UPDATE: Groupon just released an official response: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8590343 -- they now say they will be "glad to look for another name." If they really mean it, kudos to them for changing their position!
The move comes across as particularly hypocritical after reading this recent Groupon Engineering blog post titled Sharing is Caring: Open Source at Groupon:
I agree with 2 but not with 1. I think there are loads of people out there who have heard that there is something like Linux, but have never used it. If you never used any *nix you probably don't even know that desktop environments can be switched or changed. Then how would you know about a specific desktop environment? Not accepting to respect a 17 year old trademark is very, very bad though.
I don't get it either. If GNOME (the desktop environment and the foundation) have a trademark on GNOME, why do they need $80k to defend it? Shouldn't the trademark office then simply reject any further application for GNOME name related to computers, software and operating systems? Is this because of the idiotic defunc. justice system the US is imposing on themselves? Where you can sue mall owner for millions because you slipped on his floor? sigh
I believe the idea is that if I register "Bruiser's Cars", that name doesn't automatically become unavailable to others for hundreds of years. I need to prove that I am still using the trademark somehow. Unfortunately that results in me needing a lawyer, which really sucks for a small business.
Note that the patent system (in theory) works the way you describe, but it hasn't eliminated the need for lawyers.
Finally, in the mall example, what usually happens is the judge finds that the mall saved millions by never cleaning their floors, so the company is punished by losing all the money they made. It is extremely rare for someone to get millions over something small.
The issue is, of course, "how related is related?" The USPTO will do a trademark search to see if an application conflicts with an existing mark. The $80k the foundation is spending isn't for that, it's to convince the USPTO that "GNOME" for a point-of-sale system is unacceptably close to "GNOME" for a desktop shell.
Why that amount of money? Is that how much the SFLC needs? I assume you're picking the SFLC to represent you, right?
Does the FSF handle any of Gnome's finances? As a GNU package, I thought there still was a relationship between the FSF and Gnome.
I ask because as a fellow GNU-in-arms, I might be able to make a case for sending you a bit of Octave's money. We gotta look out for each other, right?
Gnome has definitely had an impact on my career, as it was my desktop of choice for a long time, both professionally and at home. Thank you for your hard work, i've donated $50 (not much but). Go get them boys :)
when your business model is easily replicated and done better I guess its only natural to extend it or simply move onto something else and integrate it to your current product.
Does seem like one big privacy risk, really I do not think I want my POS terminals connected to the net for any reason.
Couldn't someone like Google, Apple, or any of the other huge companies who have made billions with the help of *nix and OSS in general step in and help out with what, to them, is a trivial drop in the bucket of money?
Also how is it even legal for someone to so openly and malicious intrude on a trademarked name? I thought that's the entire point of trademarks.. it protects you from this?
"There is some recent confusion around Groupon’s intended use of a product name that the Gnome Foundation believes infringes on their trademarks.
We love open source at Groupon. We have open sourced a number of projects on github. Our relationship with the open source community is more important to us than a product name. We’ve been communicating with the Gnome Foundation for months to try to come to a mutually satisfactory resolution, including alternative branding options, and we’re happy to continue those conversations. And if we can’t come up with a resolution, we’ll be glad to look for another name.
We will continue to have an open line of communication with the Gnome Foundation until this matter is resolved."
I feel bad that reason I'm donating for the first time to a project that has benefited me and so many others over the years is to help then fight a legal battle not to help support development.
Trademarks aren’t universal; they are divided into classifications e.g. market segments. Just because the name is the same, doesn't mean the PTO will think of them as being in the same space.
One of the lead security people at Groupon has a big GNOME sticker on his laptop in a pic on LinkedIn. This tells me that groupon is about to get pooped on.
You should definitely save that pic and a timestamp or something to that effect. Bonus points if you do it in front of a lawyer in the right jurisdiction.
How is it possible for Groupon to not know about GNOME? they probably have so many development machines running GNONE in their offices..
I find it hard to believe that none of their tech team has never heard of gnome..
Infact they should be grateful for GNONE for it being a huge part of linux operating systems and they must have surely used it during the course of groupon's existance
IANAL, but legal protection for trademarks extends to any usage wherein it would create sufficient consumer confusion.
Great example: Apple v. Apple. The computer company agreed to not enter the music industry. To the extent of which they got sued when they added a sound card and multimedia features to their computers. They settled for a boatload of money rather than let a judge decide that they couldn't add any sound/media features.
The bigger issue is that the GNOME foundation lawyers are attempting to deal with these competing registrations individually, rather than as a class, and trying to convince a judge that Groupon is acting in bad faith and attempting to use the legal system to force them to abandon the trademark in the face of excessive legal fees.
> IANAL, but legal protection for trademarks extends to any usage wherein it would create sufficient consumer confusion.
Let's be honest though: walk up to any Joe on the street and ask them what GNOME is. They're not going to recognize it as a *nix desktop environment or a retail POS system.
In laymans terms, can someone explain why does it costs 80 grand to protect something you registered to be legally yours 8 years ago? If they registered the GNOME trademark in 2006, isn't that supposed to protect them from this kind of shit instead of cost them more money when some big guy comes along and tries to take it?
[+] [-] cs702|11 years ago|reply
Consider: (1) it's essentially impossible that no one involved had ever heard of the Gnome desktop (it's the top result when I search for "gnome" on Google); and (2) after being contacted by the Gnome Foundation, Groupon filed even more trademark applications.
There are a lot of decent, hard-working hackers at Groupon, and quite a few of them, I'm sure, regularly visit HN. They won't be happy to find out about this.
Are there any Groupon insiders here willing to comment on this, maybe anonymously?
--
UPDATE: Groupon just released an official response: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8590343 -- they now say they will be "glad to look for another name." If they really mean it, kudos to them for changing their position!
[+] [-] snsr|11 years ago|reply
https://engineering.groupon.com/2014/open-source/sharing-is-...
[+] [-] erikb|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jevgeni|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] medecau|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] skratlo|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Cthulhu_|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] samspot|11 years ago|reply
Note that the patent system (in theory) works the way you describe, but it hasn't eliminated the need for lawyers.
Finally, in the mall example, what usually happens is the judge finds that the mall saved millions by never cleaning their floors, so the company is punished by losing all the money they made. It is extremely rare for someone to get millions over something small.
[+] [-] rayiner|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] FooBarWidget|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] JoshTriplett|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jordigh|11 years ago|reply
Does the FSF handle any of Gnome's finances? As a GNU package, I thought there still was a relationship between the FSF and Gnome.
I ask because as a fellow GNU-in-arms, I might be able to make a case for sending you a bit of Octave's money. We gotta look out for each other, right?
[+] [-] zemanel|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Beltiras|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] michaelx386|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] alasdair_|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gooseus|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] anoncow|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|11 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] perrupa|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jessaustin|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] venomsnake|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] moron4hire|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Shivetya|11 years ago|reply
Does seem like one big privacy risk, really I do not think I want my POS terminals connected to the net for any reason.
[+] [-] Andrenid|11 years ago|reply
Also how is it even legal for someone to so openly and malicious intrude on a trademarked name? I thought that's the entire point of trademarks.. it protects you from this?
[+] [-] alasdair_|11 years ago|reply
"There is some recent confusion around Groupon’s intended use of a product name that the Gnome Foundation believes infringes on their trademarks.
We love open source at Groupon. We have open sourced a number of projects on github. Our relationship with the open source community is more important to us than a product name. We’ve been communicating with the Gnome Foundation for months to try to come to a mutually satisfactory resolution, including alternative branding options, and we’re happy to continue those conversations. And if we can’t come up with a resolution, we’ll be glad to look for another name.
We will continue to have an open line of communication with the Gnome Foundation until this matter is resolved."
[+] [-] robmccoll|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] VMG|11 years ago|reply
Did they truly not know? Did they just think the Gnome project wouldn't care? That they'll win the lawsuit?
[+] [-] clarkevans|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rasengan|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jacquesm|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vayarajesh|11 years ago|reply
I find it hard to believe that none of their tech team has never heard of gnome..
Infact they should be grateful for GNONE for it being a huge part of linux operating systems and they must have surely used it during the course of groupon's existance
[+] [-] steventhedev|11 years ago|reply
Great example: Apple v. Apple. The computer company agreed to not enter the music industry. To the extent of which they got sued when they added a sound card and multimedia features to their computers. They settled for a boatload of money rather than let a judge decide that they couldn't add any sound/media features.
The bigger issue is that the GNOME foundation lawyers are attempting to deal with these competing registrations individually, rather than as a class, and trying to convince a judge that Groupon is acting in bad faith and attempting to use the legal system to force them to abandon the trademark in the face of excessive legal fees.
[+] [-] jenscow|11 years ago|reply
I wonder if the GNOME foundation would "sell out" - who should decide, and how much is it worth...?
[+] [-] feld|11 years ago|reply
Let's be honest though: walk up to any Joe on the street and ask them what GNOME is. They're not going to recognize it as a *nix desktop environment or a retail POS system.
[+] [-] gnurag|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|11 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] rectang|11 years ago|reply
I hope that Groupon finds its ability to attract and retain engineering talent substantially degraded.
[+] [-] lucb1e|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dec0dedab0de|11 years ago|reply
Lawyers want to make money.
Lawyers write laws in a way that makes them more money.
[+] [-] xrjn|11 years ago|reply
Original GNOME page: https://archive.today/glAva
Groupon Gnome press release: https://archive.today/MQk7o
USPTO page 1: https://archive.today/xWlTk
USPTO page 2: https://archive.today/FpeeU
USPTO page 3: https://archive.today/CpI0s
Groupon Gnome page: https://archive.today/yGhPF
[+] [-] unknown|11 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] lbredeso|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] swang|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] towelguy|11 years ago|reply