I am an American who has lived in Norway for several years. I have to deal with this crap every year and, when the time comes to choose between passports, I am honestly not sure which choice I will make. I love US, as I spent my formative years there and those were some pretty good years, but am less a fan of US tax law.
Yep. I find the Norwegian taxation system to be considerably more manageable and equitable. You pay taxes that are not much higher than in the US and actually get things in return, like excellent health care, free tuition a social safety net, better infrastructure, and a much much higher standard of living across the board. Wellstone was right: We all do better when we all do better. It's genuinely great, but I digress...
The other awesome thing about Norwegian taxes is that the government does it for you. At the end of the year, they send you form with all of your taxes done and ask, "Is this right?" If it is, you click a button and are done. If not, then you might have to do a little work, but it is still so so so much less than managing the US taxes.
> You pay taxes that are not much higher than in the US and actually get things in return
This is what bothers me the most about the U.S. Federal Government. Most of the things I enjoy in the U.S. are provided by my city, county and state. Things like courts and fire protection and cops and roads and schools and water and sewage systems and electricity and parks.
And what's amazing about all that is I don't pay very much for it. States and cities seem to be able to really stretch our tax dollars.
I pay a lot more into the federal government and in return I get interstates (which are awesome) and the TSA at airports and borders. Other than that, I don't really have many tangible interactions with the federal government at all. This was made very obvious during the shutdown, which I wouldn't have noticed if I hadn't been reading the news. It seems to be largely a money pit.
>>The other awesome thing about Norwegian taxes is that the government does it for you.
The US has also attempted to do this. However, every attempt has been killed by corporate interests (like Intuit) and politicians (mostly Republicans) and special-interest-groups (conservative anti-tax organizations)
The latter claim that the government shouldn't automatically create a form with all taxes done because the government will not try to minimize citizen tax payments (and most people will check the 'OK' button without reviewing their taxes to see if they can get additional deductions). In reality, I think that most anti-tax organizations realize that they'll lose a significant portion of their support if filing taxes becomes easy. In the case of companies like Intuit, the motives are obviously transparent.
I'm hoping people will start to realize this more over time. The taxes we pay in the United States are not that low, not when you start talking about the lack of social services we have and compare that to other countries with far more comprehensive programs. I have some Canadian friends who were shocked to learn I pay more taxes than they do. Well, of course, they were also shocked to learn I had health insurance at all, but that's a different story.
High taxes. Long wars that promise to only get longer. Lack of meaningful industry regulations. For what? What is it getting us? It's not like we're getting free tuition out of it, or even reasonably cheap tuition. It's not like we're getting more land and resources--and freedums, I seem to have a lot fewer of those these days, and it weren't no Al Qaida that done took 'em from me. We aren't getting cheaper products with more innovative features. Republicrats and Demicans can argue all day about what change is needed, and we've only ended up with the worst of both sides of the aisle. We'd be a lot better off with the whole program of one system, even if it was the system I didn't agree with.
>You pay taxes that are not much higher than in the US and actually get things in return, like excellent health care, free tuition a social safety net, better infrastructure, and a much much higher standard of living across the board. Wellstone was right: We all do better when we all do better.
You mean "We all do better when we use oil money spend $3800 more per capita than we collect in taxes".
> You pay taxes that are not much higher than in the US and actually get things in return
This is amazing. (Let's disregard the two countries' differences in population sizes, demographics, debt, and military budgets.) A self-employed person in the US tends to lose between 40 and 50% of income to triple-taxes (depending on federal, state, and local levels), self-employment tax, and the need to buy expensive health insurance. What is the range of Norwegian tax rates under similar circumstances? Does Norway have a high consumption or sales tax rate?
Oh that last thing is nice; I feel like the Canadian government could easily do the same, as what they are essentially doing is checking my work against theirs, and sending me a notice afterwards that says "yup!" or "you were off by a bit".
The awesomest part about Norwegian taxes is that they don't have to pay for everything because of all the Norwegian North Sea oil. I'm happy for the Norwegians, but this is not apples to apples.
Posting this from a throwaway account, because, well, you can never be too careful.
Several points, as an American who has lived abroad for most of my life, and only recently found out about the taxation laws and requirements:
* the requirements are Overwhelming. Most people don't realize how bad it gets. It's not about the money (most "normal" Americans living abroad owe no money to the IRS), but about the reporting. Every bank account, every stock you own or owned within the last several years, every company you started, and guess what — even if you own 15% of an LLC, that is considered a "controlled company", so all of its financials are to be reported. It's insane!
* it's not work you can easily shift to an accountant. Oh, you do have to hire one, because there is no way a US citizen can do his own taxes (in contrast to most EU countries, for example), but you still have to prepare all the information. Ever tried to report interest (accrued monthly) on six bank accounts, in three currencies, over the past 6 years?
* the benefits of being an American: frankly, I can hardly name any these days. I guess the ability to work in the US counts as one.
* it used to be that having US citizenship would be a dream, especially for people in former Eastern European post-soviet countries. But this is no longer the case. These days being a citizen of one of the EU countries gives you much more benefits and earns you much less hate abroad.
The problem with taxation of expats is very, very serious, and as others have mentioned it is unlikely to be resolved, because there is no organized lobby. The real tax-evaders don't have this problem: it's "normal" people who do.
I'm an American expat (albeit a young one) and I agree that you have plenty of good points there. But how many are exclusive to the problem of expats and aren't just problems with the tax system in general? Maybe it's because I do see value in having an American citizenship, but I wouldn't mind paying taxes, even as an expat, if it were simpler.
Luckily I'm young and make less than $97,600 (yet another seemingly arbitrary corner of the tax code), so I don't have to pay taxes. Of course, I still have to file and then request an exemption, but that's no surprise in a system where lawyers are the only ones voting on the laws.
I expect that the American taxation of expats is unlikely to change because there's simply very little economic pressure to do so.
The value of an American citizenship is incredibly high. The vast majority of people in the world would go to great lengths and expense to be able to have one. The taxation requirements, as onerous as they are, are still worth it to the vast majority of citizens.
Similarly, the value of a British citizenship (or of any other powerful western country) is very high, and most people would put up with great costs to have it. The author mentions that he pays quite high taxes there as well.
The marginal value of having an additional citizenship from the set of powerful western countries is quite low, though, which is why this author no longer feels that the costs are worth it. But only an incredibly small fraction of people are in a position to be citizens of more than one powerful western country, which means that the costs of being a citizen will likely continue to be judged (by most people) against the value of citizenship on its own, not as a marginal addition to some other citizenship.
I'm an American citizen living and working in Switzerland for the last 8 years. When my daughter turned 5, I took her to our local bank to open a savings account for her. The people at the bank turned pale when they realized I was an American. They explained to me that they would have to do a giant pile of paperwork and due to the trouble, they could not open an account. My wife (who's Swiss) had to go to the bank to do it for me. I've had this experience several times, and only hold one account here. It's not like I'm a tax-dodging rich person, I'm an average programmer earning a modest wage. Meanwhile, I know Americans who live here and have quite a lot of money, and manage to move it around and not pay much tax at all. It makes me really want to give up my passport, too.
As someone with an indefinite (10 year renew, for $500/pop) "green card" I've decided going for citizenship after 3-5 years is too risky. I operate a foreign bank account in order to repay my student loans (since it costs me roughly 1% to send money that way Vs. 3% or more via a credit card (even with 0% foreign transaction fees)).
My concern is that if I was a US citizen, the bank might close my account for the reasons cited in the article. So now I won't be able to get citizenship (and e.g. vote, get a US passport) until my loans are completely paid off and I can close the account.
I will say that my "plan" is if I ever leave indefinitely, that I will renounce my citizenship. Having to file US taxes is extremely painful even for someone with "simple" taxes like me (one job, no additional sources of income, few deductions). Before I moved to the US I never had to fill out a single tax form (ever). Americans just love pointless bureaucracy like no other...
I'll be damned if I am filing US taxes from abroad. I just refuse to on principle alone.
Just so you know, Green card holders and citizens have the exact same requirements when it comes to taxes and foreign account disclosures. If you are a Permanent resident/Green card holder, you still have to file taxes with IRS regardless of where you live or where your accounts are. The foreign bank account law (FATCA) also applies to permanent residents.
As a green card holder, you are already taxed as a US permanent resident (ie: in the exact same way as a US citizen, regardless of where you live). If your bank knows and hasn't forced you to close your account, they're probably OK with having you. If they don't know, well, use your best judgment.
> My concern is that if I was a US citizen, the bank might close my account for the reasons cited in the article. So now I won't be able to get citizenship (and e.g. vote, get a US passport) until my loans are completely paid off and I can close the account.
So when you're a US citizen, they will close your bank account, and you will not be able to become a US citizen anymore? I don't quite follow.
(I realize it may not be an option, but if you already have a fairly clear plan to stay in the US, it would seem worth pursuing, maybe even just to avoid all the money transfer fees)
Is it just me, or does "being a citizen," feel increasingly archaic as time goes on? The idea is still deeply embedded in society and government, and passports still speak volumes (insofar that they're valued differently), but citizenship seems more of a formality. Some are very tied to their countries of origin, but there seems to be a growing trend to simply follow the wealth--whether it be money, standard of living, etc.
If holding additional citizenship becomes a burden, people simply drop it.
I just became a US citizen after living in the country for 23 years. For me, the notion isn't archaic at all. I was a permanent resident for some time. The US could revoke my residency if I spent more than six months consecutively outside the USA.
I do think many people think the term is becoming archaic. For people who live and call a country which they are not citizen in their home, it's definitely not archaic. Becoming a US citizen was one of the most important days of my life.
When I was young and experimentally idealistic I felt the same way. Thinking of myself as a world citizne, I phoned up the local branch of the UN and asked how I get a UN passport. The very aptient lady on the other end explained that governments hate people without citizenship because they think they might get stuck owing them something, and that UN passports were only issued to refugees who had lost everything, and even then the main function was not to admit them to places, but to have a document that could be associated with an exit date to ensure some transited out of a country.
I still think citizenship ought to be something you choose but in reality it is usually something that happens to you, based on where you emerged into the world and what citizenship your parents hold. This is not going to change for the foreseeable future.
Is it just me, or does "being a citizen," feel increasingly archaic as time goes on
When times are good it might, but just ask Americans who were in Liberia or Sierra Lione recently, or who were in Georgia in 2007, or who were in Ukraine until this year. Citizenship doesn't matter until it really, really matters. In Israel there are increasingly stories about families wondering about whether getting or attempting to get a second citizenship is a form of cowardice or a pragmatic acknowledgement of events on the ground.
Let me reiterate that moving towards a safer and more developed world in which citizenship doesn't matter much is great and I hope we do it. But that progress is not guaranteed and is not universal.
It really depends on where you are born.As an american,you can move almost freely across the world.That's not the case if you're born in some god forsaken place in Africa for instance.Being born in the "right place" is definitely a privilege.Trust me.
> but there seems to be a growing trend to simply follow the wealth--whether it be money, standard of living, etc.
It has always been that way.There's nothing new about that.People have been moving where there are better opportunities for centuries.
Hardly a formality for citizens of countries that aren't any fun to live in and aren't easy to leave. Ask a Syrian or a North Korean if citizenship is a formality.
Is following wealth internationally a particularly new trend? Nearly all of America's population is descended from immigrants who came chasing money and/or standard of living.
It matters if you want to participate in democracy by voting. Many (most?) places you can't even vote for your town's major or school board without a national citizenship.
I think you live in a fairly unique situation if you consider citizenship becoming old fashioned. With all the speak about globalization, shifting ones recidence from country to country is not something people generally engage in often. Family, work and living permits, cultural background, language - these are still quite real limitations to most. It's probably a bit different with top experts but by definition most are not...
Good for him. There is nothing "patriotic" about complying with unreasonable and out-of-control tax demands. I expect that this process will accelerate as income taxes continue to rise and more indirect income taxes are added such as the affordable care act health insurance requirements and booming student loan debt/interest. It may just wind up being a wise move drop the financial burden of being an American citizen and leave. How ironic...
"So most expatriates owe no money to the I.R.S. each year — and yet many of us have to pay thousands of dollars to accountants because the rules are so hard to follow."
This is where the problem is. The rules are just so damn hard and complex. I lived in HongKong for a couple of years outside US and expat tax is nothing short of nightmare even when you know you won't owe a penny to the IRS. The tax in HongKong is as simple as it gets and Yes US is a much bigger country and all that but I fail to understand why things are so complex. I love my accountant but sometimes I wonder would she exist if I can do my own taxes in a matter of a few clicks ?
Coming back to giving up US passports point, well good for the author but like someone else mentioned, the value of US citizen or even a Permanent Residency (green card) is really high even though you have to go through so much trouble just to file the damn taxes. Unless you are tremendously successful already with tons of money and not to worry about your financial future AND can choose to live anywhere, sure giving up the US passport will be much easier. Otherwise, it will take serious guts.
In each bill I get from my bank(a european bank),it's noted,right next to the headings, that if you are an american citizen,the bank will report any operation on your account to the US administration! US went to great lengths to compel foreign banks who operate in the US to snitch on US citizens abroad,even those who havent lived in USA for a long time. I'm not really sure how many countries in the world do that.
I'm currently working for a Dutch bank, and as far as I can tell, this is a specific exception for US citizens. There's also specific rules for doing business with countries the US doesn't like (Cuba, North Korea, Iran and a few others). Other countries don't get special exceptions.
That said, of course all countries try to catch tax dodgers, but they go about that in a different way than the US does.
And yet with all this reporting, they IRS can't just calculate the damn taxes themselves, but require you to spend hundreds to thousands of dollars to produce reams of paperwork.
"Almost all my friends are cultural mutts — people with hybrid backgrounds, for whom nationality isn't the most important part of their identity."
I do identify with my birth country to an extent, but definitely no more or no less than any of the other places I've lived in since I left. I'm afraid this might upset some people, but the piece of paper in my pocket has value only insofar as I can't get a better deal somewhere else.
I've grown pretty tired of "ownership through urination" and I know my multi-cultural friends all feel the same. I know this is mostly down to historical baggage but I really, really wish we could do something about it.
I'm genuinely curious, are there any recognized countries without actual land/borders?
Depending on how adventurous you are, you could look at "The World Passport." You can get a passport that has been accepted at 160 nations, supposedly, although based on my research a few years ago it's pretty hit-or-miss. Some great gems on their website like:
>Does this mean I don't have to pay my national tax?
>No, you must pay that proportion of your national tax officially allocated to peaceful pursuits.
I wouldn't dare travel without another passport as a backup, but I would love to live in a world where I could. And as an American, cutting out the 40% or whatever of my taxes that goes to MiniPax would make me ecstatic.
Edit: Here's the list of countries that have accepted it. Part of me wonders if a substantial number of these are legitimate, or if they're just from very tired border agents.
I note with some amusement the difference in the way that foreign income for private citizens is of interest to the IRS and yet foreign income for corporations can be left abroad and remains untaxed. One would have hoped that it may be the other way round.
The funny part about this to me is that the largest beneficiaries of tax loopholes are big companies like Apple, Google, etc. They have billions squirreled away overseas, and the .gov is likely never going to see a dime of it.
I'm kind of conflicted about this article. As an American living abroad, it's very, very pertinent. On the other hand, it's basically political in nature so I'm going to flag it in any case, as I don't think it's fair to complain about political articles except for ones I really happen to like.
Edit: for those actually interested in doing something, this group looks to be legit: http://americansabroad.org/
Most citizen renunciations are dual citizens living aboard and deciding the paperwork is not worth it. Its rarely someone with a a single US citizenship, residing inside the US and deciding to exit due to taxes or moral convictions. Some of these dual citizenships inherited their American citizen by birth without ever living inside the USA.
My wife is British, I'm American. I am currently working on several US based companies but I'm confident my Entrepreneurial streak and her desire to go back to the UK will bring about me forming a business overseas.
I knew this was a concern, but I didn't realize so much so that people were giving up their passports?
Reading through the comments, I see a lot of talk about "What are the common people to do?" and that the well off seem to be dancing around this problem?
Am I off base? I just don't see why I couldn't do the same, even as an 'Average' businessman.
I don't see any moral dilemma in moving my money around to the Caymans, or wherever need be to avoid this problem, either. Why is it presented as so difficult, when so many others seem to be doing this so successfully?
As much as I love the United States, having lived here my entire life, I am not going to let them fuck me over.
The comments here seem universally in favor of the author, so I'm going to stick my neck way out, but...
I'm actually kind of worried about tax evasion. Especially here, because jurisdiction shopping seems uniquely available to the wealthy.
I take the author's point that not everyone caught up in this is actively trying to evade taxes, but I'm also not especially saddened by paperwork hardship stories, nor am I moved by taxes on income after the first ~ $100,000 a year.
I'd find the arguments for change far more persuasive if they were accompanied by compelling suggestions on how to prevent tax fraud from people who can afford to buy a house abroad and spend X days a year in it.
I'm serious, I'm in your corner 100% if you just meet me half way, acknowledge these laws have some purpose. There's a problem they're trying to solve, take that seriously. Present a better solution for that problem, rather than just saying we should shrug our shoulders and tear the whole thing down.
[+] [-] klunger|11 years ago|reply
Yep. I find the Norwegian taxation system to be considerably more manageable and equitable. You pay taxes that are not much higher than in the US and actually get things in return, like excellent health care, free tuition a social safety net, better infrastructure, and a much much higher standard of living across the board. Wellstone was right: We all do better when we all do better. It's genuinely great, but I digress...
The other awesome thing about Norwegian taxes is that the government does it for you. At the end of the year, they send you form with all of your taxes done and ask, "Is this right?" If it is, you click a button and are done. If not, then you might have to do a little work, but it is still so so so much less than managing the US taxes.
[+] [-] nostromo|11 years ago|reply
This is what bothers me the most about the U.S. Federal Government. Most of the things I enjoy in the U.S. are provided by my city, county and state. Things like courts and fire protection and cops and roads and schools and water and sewage systems and electricity and parks.
And what's amazing about all that is I don't pay very much for it. States and cities seem to be able to really stretch our tax dollars.
I pay a lot more into the federal government and in return I get interstates (which are awesome) and the TSA at airports and borders. Other than that, I don't really have many tangible interactions with the federal government at all. This was made very obvious during the shutdown, which I wouldn't have noticed if I hadn't been reading the news. It seems to be largely a money pit.
[+] [-] credo|11 years ago|reply
The US has also attempted to do this. However, every attempt has been killed by corporate interests (like Intuit) and politicians (mostly Republicans) and special-interest-groups (conservative anti-tax organizations)
The latter claim that the government shouldn't automatically create a form with all taxes done because the government will not try to minimize citizen tax payments (and most people will check the 'OK' button without reviewing their taxes to see if they can get additional deductions). In reality, I think that most anti-tax organizations realize that they'll lose a significant portion of their support if filing taxes becomes easy. In the case of companies like Intuit, the motives are obviously transparent.
[+] [-] moron4hire|11 years ago|reply
High taxes. Long wars that promise to only get longer. Lack of meaningful industry regulations. For what? What is it getting us? It's not like we're getting free tuition out of it, or even reasonably cheap tuition. It's not like we're getting more land and resources--and freedums, I seem to have a lot fewer of those these days, and it weren't no Al Qaida that done took 'em from me. We aren't getting cheaper products with more innovative features. Republicrats and Demicans can argue all day about what change is needed, and we've only ended up with the worst of both sides of the aisle. We'd be a lot better off with the whole program of one system, even if it was the system I didn't agree with.
[+] [-] seizethecheese|11 years ago|reply
1: http://www.economist.com/news/special-report/21570842-oil-ma...)
[+] [-] coldcode|11 years ago|reply
The IRS could do our taxes as well if there weren't 500,000 special interest exceptions to everything.
[+] [-] tsotha|11 years ago|reply
You mean "We all do better when we use oil money spend $3800 more per capita than we collect in taxes".
[+] [-] gcv|11 years ago|reply
This is amazing. (Let's disregard the two countries' differences in population sizes, demographics, debt, and military budgets.) A self-employed person in the US tends to lose between 40 and 50% of income to triple-taxes (depending on federal, state, and local levels), self-employment tax, and the need to buy expensive health insurance. What is the range of Norwegian tax rates under similar circumstances? Does Norway have a high consumption or sales tax rate?
[+] [-] afterburner|11 years ago|reply
Although it still only takes me 30 minutes.
[+] [-] hessenwolf|11 years ago|reply
German taxes, on the other hand...
[+] [-] humanrebar|11 years ago|reply
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Government_Pension_Fund_of_Norw...
[+] [-] jqwerqlkwjgoi|11 years ago|reply
Several points, as an American who has lived abroad for most of my life, and only recently found out about the taxation laws and requirements:
* the requirements are Overwhelming. Most people don't realize how bad it gets. It's not about the money (most "normal" Americans living abroad owe no money to the IRS), but about the reporting. Every bank account, every stock you own or owned within the last several years, every company you started, and guess what — even if you own 15% of an LLC, that is considered a "controlled company", so all of its financials are to be reported. It's insane!
* it's not work you can easily shift to an accountant. Oh, you do have to hire one, because there is no way a US citizen can do his own taxes (in contrast to most EU countries, for example), but you still have to prepare all the information. Ever tried to report interest (accrued monthly) on six bank accounts, in three currencies, over the past 6 years?
* the benefits of being an American: frankly, I can hardly name any these days. I guess the ability to work in the US counts as one.
* it used to be that having US citizenship would be a dream, especially for people in former Eastern European post-soviet countries. But this is no longer the case. These days being a citizen of one of the EU countries gives you much more benefits and earns you much less hate abroad.
The problem with taxation of expats is very, very serious, and as others have mentioned it is unlikely to be resolved, because there is no organized lobby. The real tax-evaders don't have this problem: it's "normal" people who do.
[+] [-] kissickas|11 years ago|reply
Luckily I'm young and make less than $97,600 (yet another seemingly arbitrary corner of the tax code), so I don't have to pay taxes. Of course, I still have to file and then request an exemption, but that's no surprise in a system where lawyers are the only ones voting on the laws.
[+] [-] ianferrel|11 years ago|reply
The value of an American citizenship is incredibly high. The vast majority of people in the world would go to great lengths and expense to be able to have one. The taxation requirements, as onerous as they are, are still worth it to the vast majority of citizens.
Similarly, the value of a British citizenship (or of any other powerful western country) is very high, and most people would put up with great costs to have it. The author mentions that he pays quite high taxes there as well.
The marginal value of having an additional citizenship from the set of powerful western countries is quite low, though, which is why this author no longer feels that the costs are worth it. But only an incredibly small fraction of people are in a position to be citizens of more than one powerful western country, which means that the costs of being a citizen will likely continue to be judged (by most people) against the value of citizenship on its own, not as a marginal addition to some other citizenship.
[+] [-] foz|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Someone1234|11 years ago|reply
My concern is that if I was a US citizen, the bank might close my account for the reasons cited in the article. So now I won't be able to get citizenship (and e.g. vote, get a US passport) until my loans are completely paid off and I can close the account.
I will say that my "plan" is if I ever leave indefinitely, that I will renounce my citizenship. Having to file US taxes is extremely painful even for someone with "simple" taxes like me (one job, no additional sources of income, few deductions). Before I moved to the US I never had to fill out a single tax form (ever). Americans just love pointless bureaucracy like no other...
I'll be damned if I am filing US taxes from abroad. I just refuse to on principle alone.
[+] [-] codegeek|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] psuter|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] melvinmt|11 years ago|reply
So when you're a US citizen, they will close your bank account, and you will not be able to become a US citizen anymore? I don't quite follow.
[+] [-] maxerickson|11 years ago|reply
(I realize it may not be an option, but if you already have a fairly clear plan to stay in the US, it would seem worth pursuing, maybe even just to avoid all the money transfer fees)
[+] [-] MAGZine|11 years ago|reply
If holding additional citizenship becomes a burden, people simply drop it.
[+] [-] ececconi|11 years ago|reply
I do think many people think the term is becoming archaic. For people who live and call a country which they are not citizen in their home, it's definitely not archaic. Becoming a US citizen was one of the most important days of my life.
[+] [-] anigbrowl|11 years ago|reply
I still think citizenship ought to be something you choose but in reality it is usually something that happens to you, based on where you emerged into the world and what citizenship your parents hold. This is not going to change for the foreseeable future.
[+] [-] jseliger|11 years ago|reply
When times are good it might, but just ask Americans who were in Liberia or Sierra Lione recently, or who were in Georgia in 2007, or who were in Ukraine until this year. Citizenship doesn't matter until it really, really matters. In Israel there are increasingly stories about families wondering about whether getting or attempting to get a second citizenship is a form of cowardice or a pragmatic acknowledgement of events on the ground.
We may be living in a peace bubble: http://www.cato.org/publications/cato-online-forum/primacy-f... . I hope that isn't the case. If however it is, citizenship really, really matters.
Let me reiterate that moving towards a safer and more developed world in which citizenship doesn't matter much is great and I hope we do it. But that progress is not guaranteed and is not universal.
[+] [-] aikah|11 years ago|reply
It really depends on where you are born.As an american,you can move almost freely across the world.That's not the case if you're born in some god forsaken place in Africa for instance.Being born in the "right place" is definitely a privilege.Trust me.
> but there seems to be a growing trend to simply follow the wealth--whether it be money, standard of living, etc.
It has always been that way.There's nothing new about that.People have been moving where there are better opportunities for centuries.
[+] [-] theorique|11 years ago|reply
Hardly a formality for citizens of countries that aren't any fun to live in and aren't easy to leave. Ask a Syrian or a North Korean if citizenship is a formality.
[+] [-] generalpf|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] akgerber|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] robotresearcher|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fsloth|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kalleboo|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pvnick|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] codegeek|11 years ago|reply
This is where the problem is. The rules are just so damn hard and complex. I lived in HongKong for a couple of years outside US and expat tax is nothing short of nightmare even when you know you won't owe a penny to the IRS. The tax in HongKong is as simple as it gets and Yes US is a much bigger country and all that but I fail to understand why things are so complex. I love my accountant but sometimes I wonder would she exist if I can do my own taxes in a matter of a few clicks ?
Coming back to giving up US passports point, well good for the author but like someone else mentioned, the value of US citizen or even a Permanent Residency (green card) is really high even though you have to go through so much trouble just to file the damn taxes. Unless you are tremendously successful already with tons of money and not to worry about your financial future AND can choose to live anywhere, sure giving up the US passport will be much easier. Otherwise, it will take serious guts.
[+] [-] Havoc|11 years ago|reply
The article is wrong in that:
>We are the only country (except, arguably, Eritrea) that taxes all of its citizens on worldwide income
Nope. South Africa does this too...the rules are very forgiving though so it tends to be OK anyway despite it being technically "world-wide income".
[+] [-] aikah|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mcv|11 years ago|reply
That said, of course all countries try to catch tax dodgers, but they go about that in a different way than the US does.
[+] [-] kalleboo|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mike_hearn|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] grownseed|11 years ago|reply
I do identify with my birth country to an extent, but definitely no more or no less than any of the other places I've lived in since I left. I'm afraid this might upset some people, but the piece of paper in my pocket has value only insofar as I can't get a better deal somewhere else.
I've grown pretty tired of "ownership through urination" and I know my multi-cultural friends all feel the same. I know this is mostly down to historical baggage but I really, really wish we could do something about it.
I'm genuinely curious, are there any recognized countries without actual land/borders?
[+] [-] kissickas|11 years ago|reply
>Does this mean I don't have to pay my national tax?
>No, you must pay that proportion of your national tax officially allocated to peaceful pursuits.
I wouldn't dare travel without another passport as a backup, but I would love to live in a world where I could. And as an American, cutting out the 40% or whatever of my taxes that goes to MiniPax would make me ecstatic.
http://www.worldservice.org/docpass.html
Edit: Here's the list of countries that have accepted it. Part of me wonders if a substantial number of these are legitimate, or if they're just from very tired border agents.
http://www.worldservice.org/visas.html
[+] [-] tricolon|11 years ago|reply
I think the closest you can get is SMOM: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_Military_Order_of_Mal...
[+] [-] nagrom|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] angersock|11 years ago|reply
So, instead, they prey on little folk.
[+] [-] davidw|11 years ago|reply
Edit: for those actually interested in doing something, this group looks to be legit: http://americansabroad.org/
[+] [-] ibejoeb|11 years ago|reply
That's a wild claim. The author is absent from New York and is free to visit http://www.elections.ny.gov/VotingAbsentee.html to learn about voting.
[+] [-] peter303|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] deletemeafter30|11 years ago|reply
I knew this was a concern, but I didn't realize so much so that people were giving up their passports?
Reading through the comments, I see a lot of talk about "What are the common people to do?" and that the well off seem to be dancing around this problem?
Am I off base? I just don't see why I couldn't do the same, even as an 'Average' businessman.
I don't see any moral dilemma in moving my money around to the Caymans, or wherever need be to avoid this problem, either. Why is it presented as so difficult, when so many others seem to be doing this so successfully?
As much as I love the United States, having lived here my entire life, I am not going to let them fuck me over.
[+] [-] percept|11 years ago|reply
You can be making less than the exempted amount, and still be obligated to pay thousands simply to file a return.
[+] [-] f3llowtraveler|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] brownbat|11 years ago|reply
I'm actually kind of worried about tax evasion. Especially here, because jurisdiction shopping seems uniquely available to the wealthy.
I take the author's point that not everyone caught up in this is actively trying to evade taxes, but I'm also not especially saddened by paperwork hardship stories, nor am I moved by taxes on income after the first ~ $100,000 a year.
I'd find the arguments for change far more persuasive if they were accompanied by compelling suggestions on how to prevent tax fraud from people who can afford to buy a house abroad and spend X days a year in it.
I'm serious, I'm in your corner 100% if you just meet me half way, acknowledge these laws have some purpose. There's a problem they're trying to solve, take that seriously. Present a better solution for that problem, rather than just saying we should shrug our shoulders and tear the whole thing down.