I don't really meditate, but one thing I've found helpful is to make it a point to not purposefully distract myself from mindful thought.
The truth is that we all have plenty of time for mindful thinking, even if we don't actually set aside time to sit with eyes closed in a "meditation" state. Think about how much time is spent just sitting on a train, or in line doing nothing. The instant impulse most of the time in these types of situations is to pull out your phone and distract yourself from thinking by looking at a web article, or playing a game.
I found that by reducing this habit in my life (not completely eliminated or else I wouldn't be commenting here) I had much more time for mindful thinking in my normal day to day life.
Another way to get started is to go on a long walk without headphones. Maybe even leave your phone at home. A year or so ago I was working through some shit and found it extremely helpful to take long walks on a trail that I loved with no electronics at all. That time spent free from distractions allowed me to develop introspection that was extremely useful and therapeutic.
I don't doubt that this is useful to you, but the phrase "mindful thinking" makes me wonder what exactly you mean.
"Mindfulness" as used in insight/mindfulness meditation / vipassana and similar schools of mediation does not refers to thinking about something.
Rather it refers to detached but focused observation (though you may observe your thoughts). The point is to instead of "following a train of thought", to get off it and watch it closely from the sideline, and let each train disappear into the distance.
What your use of "mindful thinking" sounds like to me (and I might be wrong and you may be thinking of exactly what mindfulness meditation tends to refer to), is focused attention on a train of thought. That's important too, but very, very different.
From the sounds of it you are certainly practising your concentration and willpower, and that is certainly valuable in itself, and if whatever you're doing works for you of course you should keep doing it.
But I'd like to suggst an experiment: Try to "detach" from your train of thought sometime, even if just a minute here and a minute there (a minute can be frustrating enough...). E.g. when out walking, try to purposefully clear your mind and fix your attention on just the path. Try to be present and quietly observe every detail without trying to verbalize any thoughts. Thoughts will pop up and distract you anyway. Just gently nudge them away, or observe them but try not to "follow it up" and just let it dissipate. When you lose focus, and notice (whether 5 seconds later or 10 minutes), just gently nudge your attention back.
The "game" is to note when you lose concentration and try to gradually lengthen the time span where you are just present, detached from your thought stream and just observing. As I've heard someone say: it's when you notice you lost concentration you're learning.
This article, which has been submitted to HN before, investigates several severe reactions to meditation and the nonexistent research in, or even interest in researching, its downsides.
Having a negative reaction to meditation is not surprising, if you think about it. Deep introspection can lead to crippling mental states, depending on what you do or do not find. You may expect to find meaning and find none, or you may find something haunting from your past or within your psyche. Either can be a disaster for your personal well-being. I find it somewhat vapid to discuss meditation as simply an efficiency lifehack.
From the article:
> For Britton, this widespread assumption—that meditation exists only for stress reduction and labor productivity, "because that's what Americans value"—narrows the scope of the scientific lens. When the time comes to develop hypotheses around the effects of meditation, the only acceptable—and fundable—research questions are the ones that promise to deliver the answers we want to hear.
> ..."But," she cautions, "what about when meditation plays a role in creating an experience that then leads to a breakup, a psychotic break, or an inability to focus at work?"
Reading this brings to mind very similar stories about people trying marijuana and suddenly undergoing long psychotic episodes and/or becoming diagnosed with psychotic conditions like schizophrenia or bipolar.
The vast majority of these cases always end up being result of a genetic predisposition to psychosis.
That seems exceedingly likely to be the case with those who undergo psychotic episodes due to meditation.
I think highly introspective and mind-alerting experiences and substances like meditation, cannabis, and psychedelics all have the unfortunate side effect of potentially causing latent mental illness to surface. But it only happens when there is a latent mental illness.
Better advice might be to warn people about meditation if their family has a history of mental illness or if a doctor thinks they have an increased risk of mental illness. It should not pose any risks for an average person.
I would argue that if introspection has such harmful side effects for a person that means the person's mental state was already in an artificial and damaged state.
I think in most cases it is better to begin that introspection process and endure some temporary pain in order to work through the root issue rather than trying to put it off by avoiding it.
In other words, avoiding introspection won't solve the problem.
Insightful meditation isn't about indulging in the mind's delusions, it's about realizing and observing the mind's usual habits of creating thought if left idle. There's an old saying, "If you're doing meditation, you're not doing meditation"
From my experience it is even more than this. I meditate 2 hours a day and it has had a profound, yet subtle, influence on my daily practical life. Things are just much better. It appears to me that when you make things better on the inside, there is a direct influence on the outside.
> It's strength training for your ability to direct your attention.
That's an initial, low level in meditation. Not meditation per se, more like getting your mind ready for it. It may take years to go beyond it, which is why a lot of people confuse it with meditation proper.
There is a point where your state of consciousness in meditation combines attributes of the waking state, the dream state, and the dreamless sleep state. When that happens, meditation indeed becomes a GC for the mind. But then sleep becomes optional, among other unusual occurrences.
I like the strength training metaphor - there is even the notion of paramita[1], which are containers for virtues that you fill up over time (I find it quite wonderful to define virtue as the accumulation of past action, rather than some intrinsic quality). In particular, relating to "strength" are the paramitas of determination and will.
Meditation is one of those things that people aren't allowed to not like. If you say you don't like it or it's not for you, you get overwhelmed and drowned out by the echo chamber.
I'm curious if you have ever tried your theory out on an experienced mediator? By experienced I mean 5 or more years of a regular practice. I meditate every day, and do a couple of week long meditation retreats a year if I can. I certainly don't think it's for everyone. Most of the people I meditate with (including myself) have spouses that do not meditate. I cannot imagine any of them criticizing their spouse for this. I think the idea that meditation is for everyone is a position taken by novices who experience something that is positive for them, particularly in the short term, and think that experience would extend to everyone.
Absolutely not. It's much easier to be chastised for criticizing someone's religion. Tell a meditator what they do is stupid, and you may actually have positive feelings intentionally directed at you (see compassion mediation).
Typing this quickly since I'm on a deadline at work, but for those interested in getting started, I set up a quarterly "Meditation Challenge" online group to track progress and keep people motivated by having a group of people and a goal. Myself and people in /r/meditation run it, so it's not a corporate anything, just a public service.
You an add your email and it will notify you when the next challenge starts:
I think the metaphor is OK, but in my own experience I think it misses the mark a little bit.
From what I have learned, you need to GC because you generate too much garbage; one of the ways that meditation helps is that you simply generate less garbage (less scattered, less thoughts) thus you don't need to GC/sleep/whatever that much.
And why do you generate less garbage? It's because you become better focused (concentration) on whatever you do (which by the way brings mindfullness as a side-effect, not on purpose). With proper concentration, you also become aware of the "dirt" (word that was used in the article from the atlatnic) and will tend to avoid this dirt. This is important, because if you want to get better at something, you must be able to recognize what's wrong. The problem with having these insights is that if you don't have a teacher to help you, you will get stuck at best or regress at worse.
Also there are alot of different meditation techniques, and although they are similar, the devil is in the details. I'm sure this definition is not appliable to every type of meditation, and that's OK.
I have tried meditation a few select times and over two sessions in the same year, I had the same experience. I found that I was in some sort of odd state, neither asleep nor awake. I did not have any recollection of my body. But my thoughts were strikingly aware of reality. I felt an overwhelming connectedness to essentially everything. I googled for the sensation and the closest match I could find was an Hindu word: turiya. I have no experience with this domain and have felt actually quite lost since I have never encountered anyone who had a similar frame of reference. It was quite overwhelming and has not happened but those two times. I do not indulge in any narcotics or mind altering drugs. Very unusual experience.
If you're still experiencing "thoughts" as entities beyond your full control, if the "feeling" portion of the mind still fluctuates, if you're not free to direct your ENTIRE attention in a single direction and hold it there for a long time - then that's not turiya.
You've experienced an expansion of awareness. It's pretty cool when it happens. You should "encourage" it and practice it more.
Turiya is far beyond the reach of basically everyone in their normal state. It takes very long and very difficult preparation to get anywhere near it. If it's easy to get there, you're basically an avatar.
You might have experienced a brief moment of depersonalization[1]. It can be a desirable state for some, but for others (like myself), it has caused the past six years to be hell.
Very similar things happened to me when I first started. Likewise I didn't know who to talk with about it. Feel free to reach out to me (contact info on website), would be a pleasure to talk more with you.
> "In a series of new studies on mice, her team discovered exactly that: When the mouse brain is sleeping or under anesthesia, it’s busy cleaning out the waste that accumulated while it was awake."
The NIH [also wrote about this in optimistic tones][1], if you're not a fan of mainstream science reporting.
Sleep has vital physical effects, but sleep does not alter your thought patterns other than by replenishing your energy levels and increasing your mental performance.
You may think clearer after sleep, but you think clearer about the same things, and fall into the same mindless patterns.
Sleep lets you think clearer, more logically and faster about what you're thinking about. Meditation helps you clear out attachments and observe and learn about the way you think and why you think the ways you do and clear out the cruft that falls apart under observation.
Yes, I think that too. And if you investigate Maxwells' Damon and sleep deprivation there are some obvious similarities. Also I always wondered if you go up the tree of life from what point or amount of neurons sleep is actually needed. I believe amoeba do not sleep.
I use meditation to deepen good thought "rivers". The way I see my mind is... something happens and triggers a thought which goes down the deepest "river". For example, I hear some bad news at work; my mind processes this trigger and goes down the deepest "river" leading me to a feeling of anxiety.
Free association of this nature can lead to both amazing creativity and innovation as well as awful paranoia, anxiety, and fear. The mind sure is fascinating.
I like the analogy as a hook and lead in but a bit disappointed to find the actual content a bit lacking, but perhaps that's the point?
Would be helpful to include a brief summary of the three different practises of Vipassana or insight medidation as a whole just to provide an introduction.
Ah sorry tabrischen! The idea was Hack Reactor tasked us with presenting a topic of our choosing, but we were only given 5 minutes to do so.
So I'll try to go into more details for you!
The Vipassana tradition I've been taught in includes three techniques:
* Concentration meditation, called Anapana, where you observe your breath. Just watching the rhythm in and out. Trying not to miss a single breath. It helps to focus on just a very small region, like the triangle from your nostrils to your lips.
* Insight meditation, called Vipassana, where you observe the physical sensations in each part of your body, in a systematic way, from top to bottom and bottom to top. This is pretty tricky, especially at first, and believe it or not took me over 80 hours of practice before it really "clicked". If you're trying to teach yourself, I'd recommend the ebook Meditation In Plain English, linked in the post.
* Loving-Kindness meditation, called Metta, where you generate good thoughts and compassion towards yourself and others. This one is even trickier to explain! Wish I could do it justice. But it's super powerful, and especially nice way to finish after practicing the other two techniques, which can leave you feeling a tad 'raw'. There are lots of different recommended ways of practicing Metta, but I'd recommend searching for "Metta meditation" for videos and other descriptions.
Hope this helps! Thanks for the question and I'm happy to do my best with any more.
[+] [-] NathanKP|11 years ago|reply
The truth is that we all have plenty of time for mindful thinking, even if we don't actually set aside time to sit with eyes closed in a "meditation" state. Think about how much time is spent just sitting on a train, or in line doing nothing. The instant impulse most of the time in these types of situations is to pull out your phone and distract yourself from thinking by looking at a web article, or playing a game.
I found that by reducing this habit in my life (not completely eliminated or else I wouldn't be commenting here) I had much more time for mindful thinking in my normal day to day life.
Another way to get started is to go on a long walk without headphones. Maybe even leave your phone at home. A year or so ago I was working through some shit and found it extremely helpful to take long walks on a trail that I loved with no electronics at all. That time spent free from distractions allowed me to develop introspection that was extremely useful and therapeutic.
[+] [-] vidarh|11 years ago|reply
"Mindfulness" as used in insight/mindfulness meditation / vipassana and similar schools of mediation does not refers to thinking about something.
Rather it refers to detached but focused observation (though you may observe your thoughts). The point is to instead of "following a train of thought", to get off it and watch it closely from the sideline, and let each train disappear into the distance.
What your use of "mindful thinking" sounds like to me (and I might be wrong and you may be thinking of exactly what mindfulness meditation tends to refer to), is focused attention on a train of thought. That's important too, but very, very different.
From the sounds of it you are certainly practising your concentration and willpower, and that is certainly valuable in itself, and if whatever you're doing works for you of course you should keep doing it.
But I'd like to suggst an experiment: Try to "detach" from your train of thought sometime, even if just a minute here and a minute there (a minute can be frustrating enough...). E.g. when out walking, try to purposefully clear your mind and fix your attention on just the path. Try to be present and quietly observe every detail without trying to verbalize any thoughts. Thoughts will pop up and distract you anyway. Just gently nudge them away, or observe them but try not to "follow it up" and just let it dissipate. When you lose focus, and notice (whether 5 seconds later or 10 minutes), just gently nudge your attention back.
The "game" is to note when you lose concentration and try to gradually lengthen the time span where you are just present, detached from your thought stream and just observing. As I've heard someone say: it's when you notice you lost concentration you're learning.
[+] [-] faitswulff|11 years ago|reply
This article, which has been submitted to HN before, investigates several severe reactions to meditation and the nonexistent research in, or even interest in researching, its downsides.
Having a negative reaction to meditation is not surprising, if you think about it. Deep introspection can lead to crippling mental states, depending on what you do or do not find. You may expect to find meaning and find none, or you may find something haunting from your past or within your psyche. Either can be a disaster for your personal well-being. I find it somewhat vapid to discuss meditation as simply an efficiency lifehack.
From the article:
> For Britton, this widespread assumption—that meditation exists only for stress reduction and labor productivity, "because that's what Americans value"—narrows the scope of the scientific lens. When the time comes to develop hypotheses around the effects of meditation, the only acceptable—and fundable—research questions are the ones that promise to deliver the answers we want to hear.
> ..."But," she cautions, "what about when meditation plays a role in creating an experience that then leads to a breakup, a psychotic break, or an inability to focus at work?"
[+] [-] JulianMorrison|11 years ago|reply
"Master, I see hell, demons torment me, I'm burning!"
"It's a distraction. Carry on sitting."
"Master, I see heaven, filled with love and bliss!"
"It's a distraction. Carry on sitting."
(heavily paraphrased from decades old memory)
[+] [-] meowface|11 years ago|reply
The vast majority of these cases always end up being result of a genetic predisposition to psychosis.
That seems exceedingly likely to be the case with those who undergo psychotic episodes due to meditation.
I think highly introspective and mind-alerting experiences and substances like meditation, cannabis, and psychedelics all have the unfortunate side effect of potentially causing latent mental illness to surface. But it only happens when there is a latent mental illness.
Better advice might be to warn people about meditation if their family has a history of mental illness or if a doctor thinks they have an increased risk of mental illness. It should not pose any risks for an average person.
[+] [-] NathanKP|11 years ago|reply
I think in most cases it is better to begin that introspection process and endure some temporary pain in order to work through the root issue rather than trying to put it off by avoiding it.
In other words, avoiding introspection won't solve the problem.
[+] [-] klrkdekira|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ca98am79|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] droopyEyelids|11 years ago|reply
For example, I sleep 8 hours, work 8 hours, commute 1.5 hours, and take an hour for lunch.
Not counting other meals and chores, that leaves me with 5.5 discretionary hours a day.
[+] [-] WalterSear|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Florin_Andrei|11 years ago|reply
That's an initial, low level in meditation. Not meditation per se, more like getting your mind ready for it. It may take years to go beyond it, which is why a lot of people confuse it with meditation proper.
There is a point where your state of consciousness in meditation combines attributes of the waking state, the dream state, and the dreamless sleep state. When that happens, meditation indeed becomes a GC for the mind. But then sleep becomes optional, among other unusual occurrences.
[+] [-] javajosh|11 years ago|reply
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/P%C4%81ramit%C4%81
[+] [-] segmondy|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] stephengillie|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mcshicks|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] WhitneyLand|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jonstewart|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dsernst|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] duncancarroll|11 years ago|reply
Typing this quickly since I'm on a deadline at work, but for those interested in getting started, I set up a quarterly "Meditation Challenge" online group to track progress and keep people motivated by having a group of people and a goal. Myself and people in /r/meditation run it, so it's not a corporate anything, just a public service.
You an add your email and it will notify you when the next challenge starts:
http://meditationchallenge.co
[+] [-] jackmaney|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mping|11 years ago|reply
And why do you generate less garbage? It's because you become better focused (concentration) on whatever you do (which by the way brings mindfullness as a side-effect, not on purpose). With proper concentration, you also become aware of the "dirt" (word that was used in the article from the atlatnic) and will tend to avoid this dirt. This is important, because if you want to get better at something, you must be able to recognize what's wrong. The problem with having these insights is that if you don't have a teacher to help you, you will get stuck at best or regress at worse.
Also there are alot of different meditation techniques, and although they are similar, the devil is in the details. I'm sure this definition is not appliable to every type of meditation, and that's OK.
[+] [-] dsernst|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] digitalsushi|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Florin_Andrei|11 years ago|reply
You've experienced an expansion of awareness. It's pretty cool when it happens. You should "encourage" it and practice it more.
Turiya is far beyond the reach of basically everyone in their normal state. It takes very long and very difficult preparation to get anywhere near it. If it's easy to get there, you're basically an avatar.
[+] [-] TheMakeA|11 years ago|reply
[1] http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depersonalization_disorder
[+] [-] dsernst|11 years ago|reply
Very similar things happened to me when I first started. Likewise I didn't know who to talk with about it. Feel free to reach out to me (contact info on website), would be a pleasure to talk more with you.
[+] [-] applecore|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] faitswulff|11 years ago|reply
> "In a series of new studies on mice, her team discovered exactly that: When the mouse brain is sleeping or under anesthesia, it’s busy cleaning out the waste that accumulated while it was awake."
The NIH [also wrote about this in optimistic tones][1], if you're not a fan of mainstream science reporting.
[0]: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/01/12/opinion/sunday/goodnight-s...
[1]: http://www.nih.gov/researchmatters/october2013/10282013clear...
[+] [-] vidarh|11 years ago|reply
You may think clearer after sleep, but you think clearer about the same things, and fall into the same mindless patterns.
Sleep lets you think clearer, more logically and faster about what you're thinking about. Meditation helps you clear out attachments and observe and learn about the way you think and why you think the ways you do and clear out the cruft that falls apart under observation.
[+] [-] noiv|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] knappador|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Untit1ed|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] martinshen|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] meowface|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tabrischen|11 years ago|reply
Would be helpful to include a brief summary of the three different practises of Vipassana or insight medidation as a whole just to provide an introduction.
[+] [-] dsernst|11 years ago|reply
So I'll try to go into more details for you!
The Vipassana tradition I've been taught in includes three techniques:
* Concentration meditation, called Anapana, where you observe your breath. Just watching the rhythm in and out. Trying not to miss a single breath. It helps to focus on just a very small region, like the triangle from your nostrils to your lips.
* Insight meditation, called Vipassana, where you observe the physical sensations in each part of your body, in a systematic way, from top to bottom and bottom to top. This is pretty tricky, especially at first, and believe it or not took me over 80 hours of practice before it really "clicked". If you're trying to teach yourself, I'd recommend the ebook Meditation In Plain English, linked in the post.
* Loving-Kindness meditation, called Metta, where you generate good thoughts and compassion towards yourself and others. This one is even trickier to explain! Wish I could do it justice. But it's super powerful, and especially nice way to finish after practicing the other two techniques, which can leave you feeling a tad 'raw'. There are lots of different recommended ways of practicing Metta, but I'd recommend searching for "Metta meditation" for videos and other descriptions.
Hope this helps! Thanks for the question and I'm happy to do my best with any more.
[+] [-] pekk|11 years ago|reply