It's really frustrating to me when a Show HN gets thrashed this way. Every developer puts love into what they build, and most of the people here are developers that hopefully feel the same way. Imagine how terrible it must feel to have your work responded to with such a harshly critical eye - what you're doing is making the opinions of HN more generally negative and more easily ignored, just as directors now ignore the overly critical tome of movie critics.
This was a great demonstration of an interesting piece of technology, that has been met with an overwhelmingly negative response. It's designed really well and I can see it being especially useful for small businesses with a more personal approach to client management.
"Imagine how terrible it must feel to have your work responded to with such a harshly critical eye - what you're doing is making the opinions of HN more generally negative and more easily ignored, just as directors now ignore the overly critical tome of movie critics."
What does "feeling" have to do with it?
I can't agree with that. Criticism is valuable. You can't learn anything from a pat on the back as you can from criticism. That's not saying that some of the things aren't deserved.
As an example I always get frustrated when the manager/owner of a restaurant walks around and says "is everything ok?" rather than "what can we do better or what wasn't perfect?" (in other words invite comments that may be negative).
Enough with the attaboys.
As far as HN what you typically can't learn from is downvotes without an explanation of why a downvote was received.
I feel like as an art piece, "Magic" is sort of the distillation and abstraction of everything that has happened with the Internet over the last 20 years - especially lately.
"Send a blackbox a message and you get something - on demand!"
That's art. Or it's an incredibly sad state of affairs with what qualifies as "technology" and is a horrible commentary on modern societies values. Or a reflection of it - imitating it I suppose.
I think there's something in your comment, even if you end up on the wrong track in being dismissive.
More likely it's an abstraction (via the blackbox) of the way we build internet services and ordering. That something so simple neared 500 comments and 1,200 upvotes on HN suggests to me that for 10+ years we have built ecommerce in one way, when people would rather it in a different way. No continual re-creation of accounts, of declining newsletters, declining warranties and insurance, of re-entering shipping details, etc.
Or avoiding phone ordering processes that involve waiting on the line, repeating details three times, clarifying specials and so on.
How is something that saves us time and allows us more time with our families and friends a horrible commentary on society's values? Surely the interest in Magic is a commentary on how off many of our assumptions are when building online/phone ordering processes?
I think this completely misses the point. The "magic" part of Magic isn't that it's over text -- that's just an implementation detail. Rather, the value is that it navigates all these services for you. You don't have to mess with Instacart or Postmates or Doordash or any specific app. You don't have to search or filter or download or re-enter your credit card a million times. It just happens.
So, creating a single-business-specific Magic seems kinda useless.
Well, there are two aspects to Magic... one is that it's versatile, the other is that it's low (close to zero) friction. Sonar seems to take care of the low friction part, I guess the versatility/usefulness is up to the business implementing it.
I believe a lot of the value is the simplicity of SMS. No logins, save the number in your phone and just text them like you would your friend with a request...done!
You're right though, the aggregation is definitely a big part of it.
The 'magic' of Magic isn't that unique either. It boils down to an open channel(s) to communicate with a personal assistant / concierge service. And I suspect that that calling a live person to describe the initial request seems much more expedient that bouncing texts or emails back and forth...
Right. Ordering stuff over SMS isn't that great an idea. There's going to be a lot of back and forth - what size do you want, is it OK if your flight has a change of planes at DFW, do you want anchovies on the pizza? Sending an order for a bag of groceries via SMS is going to take a lot of typing.
Processing the order is currently manual. You're back in the call center era. For the back and forth, you'd probably be better off using voice. As in, the customer calls the service on the phone.
The big advantage of web ordering is that the user gets to browse the catalog and select. They can find out if it's in stock before they order. The order gets captured correctly and automatically. There's one central service for buying, and it's called Amazon.com.
Speaking personally, half of Magic's draw is precisely because it's over text. Sure, part of the allure is that I don't have to deal with the services directly. However, for me, the other benefit is that I don't have to interact with the people behind these services directly. Maybe I'm just antisocial.
I don't know how they're doing payments exactly but if I had to guess they are recording a customer's credit card info to stripe and associate to a phone number somewhere.
Since Magic says you need to send them your credit card and address info the first time you use their service, my guess is that they would have to record that info so next time you text message, they just look up your credit card by your phone number (probably not in stripe, most likely in a separate database they keep). They can associate your stripe customer id with your phone number so they don't have to store raw credit card numbers (let stripe handle that!).
There's a distinct difference between marketing/spam and customer service/support. When a customer initiates the conversation via text, it is generally seen as an assumed opt-in.
Our issue with short codes are that they are very expensive ($3000 setup fee and cost per text after that) and a 12 week approval process. That just doesn't work for our use case.
Last I checked random short codes were $500 per month and vanity short codes were $1,000 per month. In the past I did mobile banking projects for large regional banks and of course a vanity short code is appropriate for that. For small businesses though I don't see the monthly fee, let alone the stringent approval requirements being feasible.
I've also done many text projects for small businesses using Twilio with long codes. I sincerely hope the FCC would prioritize cracking down on scamming robocallers (a major nuisance) before they crack down on small businesses attempting legitimate communication with their customers.
A company that wants to operate 24/7 would need to hire for the night-shift. This would be based on demand, of course. Night-shift hours are probably lower since most customers go to sleep at night.
I don't see why hiring evening and night staff would be that different apart from training. It's probably a bit more difficult to find people that want to work the night shift... some companies get around this by rotating staff between the day and night shifts regularly to give everyone a chance to lead a normal life.
I'm not sure that much thought has been put into this. Should probably work out the CEO/CTO titles first, figure out where to get funding for this clearly multi-billion dollar opportunity and begin to plan the exit immediately.
So someone was watching too much "Eden of the East",Noblesse oblige.
Explenation: In the animee there is a phone that can call a number which makes anything happen or done. You have a billion credit. Too bad you die if you use all the money.
I really don't like this opportunistic BS. These guys yesterday struggled with their launch and you took that opportunity to tell the world how to build a better clone?
Cheap shot & I hope someone did the same when you guys launched and I hope it made you struggle.
I think it's brilliant. The original discussion about Magic included comments and questions about what's _powering_ it. For example, people wondered how the texts got routed, whether it's automated or manual, how fulfillment is done, etc. Clearly there was some curiosity about what powers these types of apps, as further evidenced by this post's frontpage status.
We loved their implementation of SMS and so did a lot of other people. We aren't saying "here's how to build a better version" as own main point but rather, if you want to add this type of service to your own business, you can easily. You can definitely use our service to clone the functionality of Magic as well.
Opportunistic? Maybe. But we love SMS and we love Magic so why not show other companies how to apply that awesomeness to their own business?
I don't think it's about building a clone, and I'd certainly hope that magic has some features in place to help automate things--that "magic" part is totally missing from this.
This is really just slapping the "magic" name on "sms-based customer service." That's entirely different from magic.
The Internet is built around finding out how to make clones of technical implementations. Hell, half the world is built around that. Technical implementations are the easy part. The hard part is getting the entire business right, including sales and marketing and customer service. The 'magic' of Magic isn't how to read and respond to text messages from your PC, it's being able to navigate basically any third-party vendor imaginable to fulfill a customer's request. That can't be copied with a Twilio app.
If magic's only chance for success was in ensuring that nobody else could figure out how they were doing it, they weren't going to be in the marketplace for very long anyway.
For reference, almost everybody knows how to wash their car, but that hasn't put car washes out of business. McDonald's doesn't succeed because nobody knows how to make burgers, or that their special sauce is thousand island.
Restaurants, maid services, landscaping, etc., all benefit from the same aims -- if they can provide convenience to the users willing to pay for it, and do so in a way that compels those users to keep paying for it, there will be space in the marketplace for them.
[+] [-] primitivesuave|11 years ago|reply
This was a great demonstration of an interesting piece of technology, that has been met with an overwhelmingly negative response. It's designed really well and I can see it being especially useful for small businesses with a more personal approach to client management.
[+] [-] joshmn|11 years ago|reply
Author, whomever, this is great work. I can see it being very useful for certain applications. Really nice, well-written and simple ruby gem too :)
[+] [-] larrys|11 years ago|reply
What does "feeling" have to do with it?
I can't agree with that. Criticism is valuable. You can't learn anything from a pat on the back as you can from criticism. That's not saying that some of the things aren't deserved.
As an example I always get frustrated when the manager/owner of a restaurant walks around and says "is everything ok?" rather than "what can we do better or what wasn't perfect?" (in other words invite comments that may be negative).
Enough with the attaboys.
As far as HN what you typically can't learn from is downvotes without an explanation of why a downvote was received.
[+] [-] nemo44x|11 years ago|reply
"Send a blackbox a message and you get something - on demand!"
That's art. Or it's an incredibly sad state of affairs with what qualifies as "technology" and is a horrible commentary on modern societies values. Or a reflection of it - imitating it I suppose.
"Magic" & "Yo" - The future is bright.
[+] [-] prawn|11 years ago|reply
More likely it's an abstraction (via the blackbox) of the way we build internet services and ordering. That something so simple neared 500 comments and 1,200 upvotes on HN suggests to me that for 10+ years we have built ecommerce in one way, when people would rather it in a different way. No continual re-creation of accounts, of declining newsletters, declining warranties and insurance, of re-entering shipping details, etc.
Or avoiding phone ordering processes that involve waiting on the line, repeating details three times, clarifying specials and so on.
How is something that saves us time and allows us more time with our families and friends a horrible commentary on society's values? Surely the interest in Magic is a commentary on how off many of our assumptions are when building online/phone ordering processes?
[+] [-] maxerickson|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] RaphiePS|11 years ago|reply
So, creating a single-business-specific Magic seems kinda useless.
[+] [-] alex_c|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] MatthewB|11 years ago|reply
You're right though, the aggregation is definitely a big part of it.
[+] [-] digikata|11 years ago|reply
Many companies already offer that kind of service, e.g. https://www.americanexpress.com/us/credit-cards/benefits/det...
Oddly enough, my insurance company just started offering up that type of service too....
[+] [-] Animats|11 years ago|reply
Processing the order is currently manual. You're back in the call center era. For the back and forth, you'd probably be better off using voice. As in, the customer calls the service on the phone.
The big advantage of web ordering is that the user gets to browse the catalog and select. They can find out if it's in stock before they order. The order gets captured correctly and automatically. There's one central service for buying, and it's called Amazon.com.
[+] [-] JamesSwift|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dinisp|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] MatthewB|11 years ago|reply
Since Magic says you need to send them your credit card and address info the first time you use their service, my guess is that they would have to record that info so next time you text message, they just look up your credit card by your phone number (probably not in stripe, most likely in a separate database they keep). They can associate your stripe customer id with your phone number so they don't have to store raw credit card numbers (let stripe handle that!).
[+] [-] unknown|11 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] MatthewB|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] klochner|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] NiklasPersson|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] etrautmann|11 years ago|reply
s/Below is out you get started/Below is how you get started
[+] [-] MatthewB|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] benhov71|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] comrade1|11 years ago|reply
The FCC is in the process of cracking down on companies that use long codes for marketing and interacting with customers. It's too amenable to fraud.
You should be using short codes which have strict requirements for opting in, opting out, and restrictions on spam.
If this is using long codes you are setting yourself up for fines and legal problems if you use this service.
[+] [-] MatthewB|11 years ago|reply
There's a distinct difference between marketing/spam and customer service/support. When a customer initiates the conversation via text, it is generally seen as an assumed opt-in.
Our issue with short codes are that they are very expensive ($3000 setup fee and cost per text after that) and a 12 week approval process. That just doesn't work for our use case.
The laws definitely need to be updated though.
[+] [-] 300bps|11 years ago|reply
I've also done many text projects for small businesses using Twilio with long codes. I sincerely hope the FCC would prioritize cracking down on scamming robocallers (a major nuisance) before they crack down on small businesses attempting legitimate communication with their customers.
[+] [-] curiously|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vishaldpatel|11 years ago|reply
As for porting your phone number over... a quick search found this: https://www.twilio.com/help/faq/phone-numbers/i-already-have...
Feel free to send me an email: [email protected].
[+] [-] curiously|11 years ago|reply
how can you get those kind of operators, hopefully at low prices? odesk?
[+] [-] vishaldpatel|11 years ago|reply
I don't see why hiring evening and night staff would be that different apart from training. It's probably a bit more difficult to find people that want to work the night shift... some companies get around this by rotating staff between the day and night shifts regularly to give everyone a chance to lead a normal life.
[+] [-] nemo44x|11 years ago|reply
"Lady luck please let the dice stay hot..."
[+] [-] dang|11 years ago|reply
https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
https://news.ycombinator.com/newswelcome.html
https://news.ycombinator.com/showhn.html
[+] [-] folken|11 years ago|reply
Explenation: In the animee there is a phone that can call a number which makes anything happen or done. You have a billion credit. Too bad you die if you use all the money.
[+] [-] pothibo|11 years ago|reply
Cheap shot & I hope someone did the same when you guys launched and I hope it made you struggle.
[+] [-] gk1|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] MatthewB|11 years ago|reply
Opportunistic? Maybe. But we love SMS and we love Magic so why not show other companies how to apply that awesomeness to their own business?
[+] [-] mod|11 years ago|reply
This is really just slapping the "magic" name on "sms-based customer service." That's entirely different from magic.
[+] [-] freehunter|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bmelton|11 years ago|reply
For reference, almost everybody knows how to wash their car, but that hasn't put car washes out of business. McDonald's doesn't succeed because nobody knows how to make burgers, or that their special sauce is thousand island.
Restaurants, maid services, landscaping, etc., all benefit from the same aims -- if they can provide convenience to the users willing to pay for it, and do so in a way that compels those users to keep paying for it, there will be space in the marketplace for them.