ZeroDB, an end-to-end encrypted database

[akerl_]

This feels like a hollow announcement, given that there's no code or design details to look at.

I am curious how they intend to let a client run queries against a dataset that the server cannot read without the server having to send all the encrypted data over the wire, or at least an index of all the encrypted data. Which sounds limiting for large datasets.

[anologwintermut]

Not sure how they do it, but it has been done before as a research project http://css.csail.mit.edu/cryptdb/. One of the tricks it uses(though by no means the only) is to do a binary search in an index, it actually has the client decrypt a node and compare and then give the server the result.

[mtrimpe]

Not to mention that the any ability to do proper range queries would offer relatively easy ways to hack the encryption.

I've been thinking a lot about this and the only way to handle the problem this tries to solve is to:

* treat the database as a collection of events

* let each event have a visibility that matches our concept of privacy (public | shared with X, Y & Z | private)

* have this communication encrypted using already existing OTR protocols (see some of Moxie Marlinspike's posts on it)

* make the database queryable on this aggregate of event data.

It's really just a case of finding the essential complexity and making it as simple, but not simpler, than that.

The annoying thing is that while it's a tough bullet to bite; it's not even that though. Something like Datomic could already get you halfway there.

[mwilkison]

We JUST launched and started working on this but we do want to get code to you all as fast as possible. We'll post a progress update on our blog each week and share it here to keep everyone in the loop.

[zvrba]

Look up private information retrieval (PIR) and oblivious RAM (ORAM). EDIT: This particular bit from the announcement "but we're pushing query logic and decryption keys client-side" seems to point to ORAM.

I was recently reading a number of ORAM papers, considering to implement something as a side-project to play a bit with modern C++. The overhead is significant, but practical, i.e., far less than homomorphic encryption.

[onezeno]

Perhaps by using homomorphic encryption?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homomorphic_encryption

[michaelmachine]

How does this compare to CryptDB http://css.csail.mit.edu/cryptdb/ ?

[bcg1]

I realize that your post was titled "Hello World" so I wouldn't expect too much substance, but a couple quick questions (honest ones, not being sarcastic):

What is the use case for something like this?

Is this f/oss ... similarly, what are the licensing terms?

Quick comment:

Please don't misuse the word "hack" when you actually mean "security breach". Thanks!

[michwill]

The use-cases could be, for example, payment processors storing customer data, encrypted webmail (where you're able to search w/o downloading all your emails), "encrypted evernote" :-)

Yes, it will be open source once available

[mwilkison]

Yes, it will be open-source, we're still figuring out the correct license. Thanks for the "hack" -> "security breach" correction.

[elchief]

Database encryption doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me. Proper row and column security, and using real database user authentication (not one single, pooled web server user) is real security. A db on its own box, in its own network zone, physically controller by the data owner.

What's the threat here?

SQL Injection? Encryption won't help. Use parameterized queries and least privilege.

Evil admin? They can just monitor the web server instead of the db.

[michwill]

Appications should be architected so that security-critical logic happens on the client. See how Mega and SpiderOak do that. This way, the attacker has to hack every computer of every client instead of one single server.

Of course, this requires making sure that the code which the client executes is not malicious

[Veratyr]

I think the idea is that the data is never decrypted until it returns to the client. i.e. it's encrypted client side while being indexable server side.

This means that your 'evil admin' case is invalidated since the plaintext data is never available to the host.

[floatboth]

I think this project could be used to secure against evil admins. Especially if you make CouchDB-style apps (communicate directly with the DB from the browser or desktop/mobile app)

[kevinnk]

> Evil admin? They can just monitor the web server instead of the db.

That's exactly the use case. The idea is that the data isn't decrypted until the client.

[rubbingalcohol]

This is an amazing promise, but I was sad this is just a beta signup. I would really love to play around with something like this, and would also like to know how it works.

Don't play with my heart, ZeroDB. Show us what you've got!

[michwill]

We will release it open source once it's ready to be used, together with a whitepaper. Which, I hope, will happen pretty soon!

[hasenj]

Kind of interesting but I would like to see an explanation of the idea and how it works. The demo video doesn't seem to show any sign of encryption.

[BinaryIdiot]

Alright even though it's light on information you've certainly caught my attention. Is there a GitHub page setup yet that I can follow?

[superobserver]

Interesting. I wonder how it will turn out to compare with ProtonMail's solution.

[michwill]

Yes, interesting. I wonder how did they implement search over there

[bobofettfett]

1. Good, all DB data needs to be encrypted 2. That said, the largest security risk is applications (backends) that enable mass access to customer data and allow mass leaks of customer data.

[alimoeeny]

Some technical detail would be much appreciated, like the language you are using on the server side, any dependencies? Road map for when you are open sourcing it (I assume you will do)...

[axx]

Sorry for asking, but if the private keys are stored client-side, how do handle users with multiple computers? Let the user handle it by hand?

(i'm no encryption expert, just curious)

[hasenj]

I think the "client" here is the application server, not the web browser.

[peterboo]

hi there. this concept has already been developed at : http://spot-on.sf.net and is also deployed in http://goldbug.sf.net