I love Hacker School (the entity, not the name) but Recurse Center is a strange choice. "Recurse" does not bring to mind the word "recursion" by itself, and while "School" is a meaningful word, "Center" isn't. It has no umph as a phrase. The reason for the change is completely sound, but the new name is just a little strange to me.
We were mainly torn between choosing a name that was completely meaningless and one that was mostly meaningless, but which had some connotations to programming. We opted to do the latter. All the meaningful, descriptive names we could come up with -- like "Programming Retreat" -- are too generic and/or have the same problems as "Hacker School." (We also wanted to make sure we could get the .com, and we wanted to avoid making up completely new words.)
That is to say: We expect that for almost everyone hearing it for the first time, "the Recurse Center" will be meaningless. That sounds like a bad place to be in, however, it's a much better than where we were before. Almost everyone who heard "Hacker School" for the first time had to be convinced that one or both of the words didn't mean what they thought it did in this context.
Today is day 0. Our job now is to take these largely empty words (Recurse Center) and imbue them with our values and purpose.
Glad to hear you like who we are/what we do, regardless :)
While catchy, “Hacker School” has always been an actively bad name for us. Both words are problematic and misleading. “Hacker” is bad because so much of the world thinks of hackers as computer criminals and not clever programmers, which is the meaning we intended. And even for many people familiar with our use of the word, “hacker” can feel exclusionary. (“Hacker” was also not exactly helpful to the roughly 30% of each batch who cross the U.S. border to get here.)
I present this as Exhibit A in the reason why words are important. Think about this the next time you give someone ad-populum crap for correcting someone that misuses "hacker".
It is worth stepping back once in a while and thinking about how things appear to non-technical people. The FBI was suspicious of Serge Aleynikov in part due to his use of a "subversion repository" [0]. "Git" isn't all that appealing to non-technical British audiences, either.
Also present this as Exhibit A for how much of a knuckle dragger most border agents are. You really do have to pick your words carefully with them as most of their job is "gut instinct" and most aren't really that well educated or informed (even as much as knowing all of the countries).
Frankly, I'm still confused about what "recurse center" means even though I know what recursion is. I wonder what it will first mean to people outside of industry. I also can't unsee the substring "curse center". :/
Slightly off-topic: How would someone structure a study to predict the effectiveness of a rebranding?
- a minimal room made of concrete walls, having one door and one window
- a recurse center, plus the opening of one more window
- the union of two recurse centres horizontally, by a tight wall-wall juxtaposition of the two of them, with the removal of one of their walls, and the opening of a door in the remaining one, if necessary
- a similar vertical union, with the addition of a stairwell
- the union of two recurse centres by the addition of an
external hallway, and the necessary doors.
- a few additional cases that can be neglected for the purposes of this paper
In my technical writing class in college, the professor made the point that "recursion" is based on the verb "to recur", and that "to recurse" means "to curse again".
Quick anecdote: A close friend of mine had recently graduated college and after a series of interviews got in Hacker School. When he went for the visa interview (in India), the officer got really wary of him on learning that he's going to US, right after graduating of college, with no job to a place called "Hacker School". He had open the website and spend a long time in explaining him in what HS is about. Quite expectedly, he was denied the visa.
I had very similar experience, but was able to convince the immigration officer that Hacker School has nothing to do with Hackers nor Schools (which require F1 visas). That was a fun experience and added to the charm of the original name :)
He wasn't denied because of "Hacker School." He was likely denied because the odds where (in the opinion of the consular officer,) that the no-job, fresh graduate would have attempted to get a job in the United States. Especially since Hacker School themselves say that they are funded from job placements.
This saddens me because it seemed like a good opportunity for the mainstream media to reacquire the good definition of "hacker". I had started to see newspaper articles that used the good meaning.
Cultural inertia on terminology can change, and in the hacker case, I think it should. We certainly rarely say "negro" nowadays in the US except in historical contexts. I'm saddened that Hacker School gave up on the language.
A for-profit company's name isn't really the right venue for that. No matter how successful Hacker School is, it's unlikely that a significant enough fraction of the population will have positive personal associations with it to alter their emotional perception. Newspaper articles don't count, generally; they reflect the popular mood more than they influence it.
The way to reclaim "hacker" is to use it and adopt it, personally, in 1-on-1 social conversation. Preferably with non-techies who you are close to. That way people's positives associations with you rub off on the terms that you use to describe yourself. We don't use "negro" these days because most of us know and have positive associations with black people in social contexts; that makes its old connotation of inferiority incongruent with our personal experience. Similarly, the LGTBQA movement is succeeding because a large number of people now realize they have friends and neighbors who are gay, and it's much harder to cast that as deviant behavior when you personally know good people who self-identify as gay.
What I don't understand is who are they targeting this towards? Hacker School might have started as a place to teach the general public to code, but the only people who seem to get into that place now are already in the industry, or were already looking to join the industry in which case they should understand the term hacker. It's not like my mother will suddenly sign up because they changed the name.
My brain jumped to "curse" and "legal recourse," not "recursion." And I'm a software developer. Hacker School seems fine. I think you guys are over thinking it.
Yes, I had the same reaction in terms of "curse" and "recourse". I think this is a very strange name. And I don't find it particularly nice to say even, due to the double "ess" sound in the middle.
While the word "school" makes me shiver, "hacker" exactly cancels it. And I read it as "school, made by/for hackers". So pretty much self-explanatory; at least for potential applicants and mentors.
(Speaking as a foreigner) I do understand that immigration office will be suspicious (as it sounds for them as a "terrorist camp"), but well, it can be done on tourist visa AND its official name can different (e.g. "programmer school"... or even "recurse center").
"Recurse center" sounds totally generic and vague ("curse center"? "recluse center"? is it some sort of holidays or rehab?).
Of course, everything can be rebranded, but I wouldn't call an instant rapport "the biggest mistake".
I like the new name! another reason that I would consider: try to explain to the immigration office that you are going to "Hacker School" first of all, they will freak out and then ask for your student visa.
1) consular offices start with the assumption that you're going to overstay and can deny you a visa for no particular, objective reason,
2) similarly, immigration officers can deny you entry even if you have a valid visa,
3) you're not technically doing anything illegal by attending Hacker School on a tourist visa (as opposed to, say, working or attending a university).
I'm surprised that applicants volunteer such information.
Why not just say you're visiting NYC as a tourist?
From the site: "The Recurse Center is a free, self-directed, educational retreat for people who want to get better at programming, whether they’ve been coding for three decades or three months. ... The lower bound for experience for people who have successfully done a batch at the Recurse Center seems to be about two months." So, OK, it's not a "boot camp". It's more like Advanced Infantry Training. You go there and program for three months.
The site is all about "Apply Now", before they tell you anything, even the fact that it's in New York City. The FAQ doesn't tell you much about what they actually do once you get there. The Manual is a little more helpful.
In Silicon Valley, we have Hacker Dojo, which is more about talks and classes on advanced topics. (It's really mostly a co-working space for app developers now.)
Does our about page (https://www.recurse.com/about) make it more clear? If so, which info do you wish we had on our home page (beyond that we're in NY)?
"We were able to get recurse.com, which is short, pronounceable, and easy to spell."
And so many businesses end up with names because of this. I feel them on this. Everyone sitting around, throwing out their ideas for names, someone at their laptop checking domain registrations at the same time till something sticks.
It's interesting how a term like "hacker" can both be considered too exclusionary and too inclusionary, depending on who you ask and what their expectations are.
I noticed the testimonials on the front page [0] have all be modified to say "Recurse Center" even though some are years old. A quick Internet Archive check [1] confirms they originally read "Hacker School". I'm not sure if this is completely ethical; granted, it's just a name change, but they are presented as being direct quotes, while clearly they no longer are.
I'm Oskar on that testimonials page. Nick asked me (and the other people there) before updating the string "Hacker School" with "the Recurse Center". It's a direct quote with a minor approved edit.
The name sounds more like a rehabilitation centre than a school. I think the average person is going to mistake it for 'Recourse Centre' (which probably is a rehabilitation centre somewhere).
[+] [-] dmazin|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nicholasjbs|11 years ago|reply
That is to say: We expect that for almost everyone hearing it for the first time, "the Recurse Center" will be meaningless. That sounds like a bad place to be in, however, it's a much better than where we were before. Almost everyone who heard "Hacker School" for the first time had to be convinced that one or both of the words didn't mean what they thought it did in this context.
Today is day 0. Our job now is to take these largely empty words (Recurse Center) and imbue them with our values and purpose.
Glad to hear you like who we are/what we do, regardless :)
[+] [-] themodelplumber|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bau5|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mrdrozdov|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] x0x0|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rajacombinator|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Karunamon|11 years ago|reply
I present this as Exhibit A in the reason why words are important. Think about this the next time you give someone ad-populum crap for correcting someone that misuses "hacker".
[+] [-] Thrymr|11 years ago|reply
[0] http://www.vanityfair.com/news/2013/09/michael-lewis-goldman...
[+] [-] Someone1234|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wyc|11 years ago|reply
Slightly off-topic: How would someone structure a study to predict the effectiveness of a rebranding?
[+] [-] kazinator|11 years ago|reply
- a minimal room made of concrete walls, having one door and one window
- a recurse center, plus the opening of one more window
- the union of two recurse centres horizontally, by a tight wall-wall juxtaposition of the two of them, with the removal of one of their walls, and the opening of a door in the remaining one, if necessary
- a similar vertical union, with the addition of a stairwell
- the union of two recurse centres by the addition of an external hallway, and the necessary doors.
- a few additional cases that can be neglected for the purposes of this paper
[+] [-] mtviewdave|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] krat0sprakhar|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] majke|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] briandear|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|11 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] jordigh|11 years ago|reply
Cultural inertia on terminology can change, and in the hacker case, I think it should. We certainly rarely say "negro" nowadays in the US except in historical contexts. I'm saddened that Hacker School gave up on the language.
[+] [-] nostrademons|11 years ago|reply
The way to reclaim "hacker" is to use it and adopt it, personally, in 1-on-1 social conversation. Preferably with non-techies who you are close to. That way people's positives associations with you rub off on the terms that you use to describe yourself. We don't use "negro" these days because most of us know and have positive associations with black people in social contexts; that makes its old connotation of inferiority incongruent with our personal experience. Similarly, the LGTBQA movement is succeeding because a large number of people now realize they have friends and neighbors who are gay, and it's much harder to cast that as deviant behavior when you personally know good people who self-identify as gay.
[+] [-] benihana|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] curo|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] arikrak|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] craigmccaskill|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nilkn|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] akarpenko|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unclesaamm|11 years ago|reply
But I agree, it sounds like a New Age retreat. Learn to be a witch at the Recurse Center.
[+] [-] stared|11 years ago|reply
(Speaking as a foreigner) I do understand that immigration office will be suspicious (as it sounds for them as a "terrorist camp"), but well, it can be done on tourist visa AND its official name can different (e.g. "programmer school"... or even "recurse center").
"Recurse center" sounds totally generic and vague ("curse center"? "recluse center"? is it some sort of holidays or rehab?).
Of course, everything can be rebranded, but I wouldn't call an instant rapport "the biggest mistake".
[+] [-] vitno|11 years ago|reply
The new name makes it far more accesible to people outside of the community.
P.S. I love the recursive link up top.
[+] [-] marinhero|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] giggles_giggles|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nandemo|11 years ago|reply
1) consular offices start with the assumption that you're going to overstay and can deny you a visa for no particular, objective reason, 2) similarly, immigration officers can deny you entry even if you have a valid visa, 3) you're not technically doing anything illegal by attending Hacker School on a tourist visa (as opposed to, say, working or attending a university).
I'm surprised that applicants volunteer such information. Why not just say you're visiting NYC as a tourist?
[+] [-] 48lizards|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Animats|11 years ago|reply
The site is all about "Apply Now", before they tell you anything, even the fact that it's in New York City. The FAQ doesn't tell you much about what they actually do once you get there. The Manual is a little more helpful.
In Silicon Valley, we have Hacker Dojo, which is more about talks and classes on advanced topics. (It's really mostly a co-working space for app developers now.)
[+] [-] nicholasjbs|11 years ago|reply
Thanks for the feedback!
[+] [-] davidddavidson|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] thebouv|11 years ago|reply
And so many businesses end up with names because of this. I feel them on this. Everyone sitting around, throwing out their ideas for names, someone at their laptop checking domain registrations at the same time till something sticks.
[+] [-] davidbalbert|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pimlottc|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Torgo|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] philippnagel|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nicholasjbs|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pimlottc|11 years ago|reply
0: https://www.recurse.com/#testimonials
1: https://web.archive.org/web/20150316014829/https://www.hacke...
[+] [-] nicholasjbs|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] oskarth|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 48lizards|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] woah|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] random_pr|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kazinator|11 years ago|reply
And so it became imperative to change it.
[+] [-] andrewstuart|11 years ago|reply