"The article also purports that the higher level of communication inherent in engineering jobs may be vital. A healthy communication in a marriage is vital for its survival."
Yeah, us software engineers are renowned for our communication skills.
Hey, don't keep pushing that stereotype on us. Software engineering, much like other disciplines, have people from all backgrounds and capabilities. I hate the idea that the persistence of these beliefs can effect the industry further, possibly leading to some sort of self-fulfilling prophecy where good communication skills are not expected.
Routinely software engineers need to give presentations to customers, have to collaborate with other disciplines, and provide clear written and verbal communication.
This type of thinking is, I believe, the same mentality that keeps women out of STEM career paths. Just because you have a small sample set that leads you to believe we are poor communicators, do not broad brush it and assume most software folk are as inept.
Fwiw, i feel like that is the key to my relationship. I'm a (mediocre) software engineer, and by far the driving force of the communication in the relationship.
Now, my SO and I are both a bit "broken" individuals, so it's not like we're perfect by any stretch of the imagination.. but i'm certain that without a constant push for communication and a lack of "letting things stew" that we would be in a far worse state at best - and at worst, broken up.
Disclaimer: I'm not trying trying to say that my relationship is somehow more thanks to my efforts.. sometimes i feel like my push for communication can be a fault.
Regardless, it's one of the things i obsess about - being clear and open with each other.. and it's the things i obsess about that i define myself by. I wouldn't be surprised if this personality trait (obsessing about rules/structure/"healthy"-behavior) was more common in engineers. Though, the data seems impossible to meaningfully correlate.
Communication in a relationship is eminently hackable. On the first month 'anniversary' of seeing my girlfriend I bought her a book (one she'd mentioned wanting to read) and wrote a couple of lines in the front about how well it was going. From there on we've bought each other a book every month and written a short note in the front. We've been seeing each other for almost three years without any 'communication problems'. There are advantages to this approach - namely we get time to think about what to write and we both get lots of books.
The fact you're not great at vocalising your feelings on the spot (something I am definitely not good at) shouldn't be a barrier to communicating. You just have to find an approach that works for you.
A large part of engineering involves problem-solving and designing systems with lots of unknowns, as well as finding patterns and fixing problems (debugging). Persistence is also key - you won't last long in engineering if you give up the first time your design doesn't work!
Perhaps these same skills translate into relationship stability? If something isn't working, try tweaking things.
Or maybe our attention to detail just makes us better in the sack. :D
The general programmer, no. But, at the risk of inflating the title, software engineer is supposed to mean something. Especially in places where they actually are part of professional bodies. In my studies, computer science and software engineering impart two very different experiences. That's not to say that X is better than Y at Z, but the focus is different. I very much do believe that anybody who calls themselves a good software engineer should have great communication skills.
I was thinking the exact same thing when I was reading this... amongst all the engineers I know, I don't think there are many - none I can think of who I would consider having a "higher level of communication". They might talk more... but I'll leave that sentence unfinished :P
Many engineers I know take their communication skills for granted, without realizing areas where improvement is needed...especially when it comes to discussing emotions or other areas vital to a relationship.
I would say the engineers that can't communicate aren't the married ones, thus, not bringing the average down. So yes I agree but that doesn't mean that the article is false either.
If I had to guess I would say it's the cause of 2 factors:
1.Certain professions attract certain personality types so you won't see a lot of extroverted social people choosing engineering as their profession
Extroverts social as they are will always have more options and are less likely to stick around if things get sour.
2.Financial stability means that even if the woman is unhappy in the relationship she is more likely to stick around because it offers stability.
Why do you think all the girls always have a boyfriend even if their not that into him.
Society tells them you're a looser if you don't have a boyfriend so they always keep one around that doesn't mean their not willing to upgrade though :)
Edit: I analogize for generalizing and saying engineers are all men it is mostly true however as pointed out in the comments below not in all cases however I cannot say anything about the reverse case.
Software engineers are great communicators, which is why they are often awkward and unpopular. Getting along in groups and knowing your place in the social hierarchy order is much more dependent on effective lying.
I'm reminded of a scene from Scrubs where Turk tells JD: "I love how kids of divorced parents swear they have the market cornered on family dysfunction...". Point being - I don't view "not divorced" as a significant metric for a successful / happy marriage.
"Divorce is always good news. I know that sounds weird, but it's true because no good marriage has ever ended in divorce. That would be sad. If two people were married and ... they just had a great thing and then they got divorced, that would be really sad. But that has happened zero times."
With a few exceptions, divorced marriages are all moderately unsuccessful marriages. The truly horrible marriages are the ones that last, but shouldn't.
Divorce rates are also linked to income. Engineering is typically a more stable and better paying career than something like dance (given as the counterexample in the article). How much of the difference in divorce rates is attributable to that?
I wonder if a small part of the dancer/bartender vs engineer situation is that engineers (statistically usually male) often are working mostly with other men. My sister is married to a ballet dancer (who just retired to start studying to become a nurse) and he obviously was in pretty close contact with the opposite sex.
I think the main reason is the unpleasant fact that desirable women under 30 like to have fun with attractive men (men that create a lot of interest amongst younger women and can exchange them frequently), which from 90% excludes all engineers. Once the age issues hit women, they look for reliable and stable partners that would consider them a win at their age, for which engineers are prime candidates. Sorry for being cynical, as a photographer I handle a lot of desirable women and talk to them about what is important to them at various ages, and as an engineer can observe this basic dynamics - i.e. a no-longer super attractive woman rejected by most desirable men because her attractiveness falters hooks an aging engineer that had a crush on her while she was in her prime, and stays with him due to a lack of better options and desire for some stability, while he is happy beyond measure to get such a (formerly) attractive spouse.
Man, they took the least-informative numbers from that article. Much more interesting is the difference from their predicted divorce rate (which corrects for race, gender, and income, but not age, unfortunately).
Quite a few of the engineering professions have 50-60% the divorce rate of the national average, but after accounting for the above three covariances it's not quite as striking (putting them at 60-90% of expected). Agricultural engineers are still way down at 12% of expected, but they don't list the N for non-LE occupations.
Have you walked into the average engineering classroom? I remember my EE class had 90% male population. We were not exactly the coolest or most attractive looking group of guys. I think being grateful to finally meet someone that likes us plays a little role.
More seriously, people with engineering backgrounds tend to be analytic and may have made more logical choices prior to marriage, that result in longer lasting relationships. I think that that problem solving mentality could also contribute.
I find that male engineers are more difficult to handle by their wives, but if they can be handled, the engineer will hardly ever switch marriages or give up on the one thing that he's got that actually works.
There is also stability of income and quality of life that comes into play. When there is stability in the professional field, an engineer has more time to dedicate to his family. That is a gigantic luxury in itself.
I believe Chris Rock said it best: "A man's only faithful as his options". Engineering is a male dominated field so the opportunity to meet someone you might want to cheat with is far lower than for bartenders or dance instructors. Case close, as far as I'm concerned, let's not let this go to our heads.
Without having read the original study, it would be worthwhile to see if the there was any attempt to normalize by education level, income and age. It's likely that these are more salient factors and profession is acting as a proxy for these.
What is interesting is the last three "engineers" in the list are not engineers-by-education ("white collar") type engineers, they are engineers-by-trade ("blue collar"). The "engineers by trade" typically have a lower education level and probably lower income level.
Locomotive engineers and operators 15.77
Stationary engineers and boiler operators 16.99
Operating engineers and other construction equipment operators 18.97
The "blue collar" engineers have a substantially higher divorce rate than most of the "white collar" engineering professions, but the transition by percentages compared to the those preceding them in the list was a lot smoother than I expected.
I know that the most common reason cited for divorce is finances. So it may indeed be that higher income professions in general have a lower divorce rate.
Probably a linked variable or two here. Thinking aloud:
1. Higher income. Like, substantially higher income.
2. Later marriage. People don't tend to get married in college, and I expect to find that people who get married early have higher divorce rates than average.
If you look at the Myers-Briggs personality types listed at TypeLogic, you'll see for the INTJ type (most often associated with engineering types) as being said to often "Work at" a relationship.
This is, I know, a weak argument at best, but I would toss out as something to ponder that perhaps there's a higher incidence of analytic types to dissect and improve their relationship.
...or simply inclined to remain with the status quo. You decide.
While INTJ are most often associated with engineers, most engineers are not. INTJ is pretty rare, I think somewhere around 1%, which would make it only account for roughly 20% of engineers and scientists [citation needed].
Honestly, with money being one of the leading causes of divorce, I would say a reasonable assumption is just that engineers make more of it and are more likely to spend what they do have wisely.
Really? My family is full of 50+ year old engineers and I can't think of any engineers that I know that changed careers as they got older. Sure some of them may have taken on more management responsibilities as they got older, but non of them left engineering.
Very odd. The list concludes with three skilled trades that share the name engineer, but don't have the same requirements for education and certification as (say) civil or electrical engineering. Now, I expect that the insurance companies see to it that all of those working as locomotive engineers have more rigorous training than many of us working as software engineers, and the same may be true for some operating engineers. Still, the list suggests a certain carelessness.
Engineers are more likely to take a pragmatic approach instead of a sentimental "Oh no! He/She doesn't have exactly the same taste in vacations/home decor/friends/whatever, we must not be soulmates after all!"
[+] [-] zelos|11 years ago|reply
Yeah, us software engineers are renowned for our communication skills.
[+] [-] dudifordMann|11 years ago|reply
Routinely software engineers need to give presentations to customers, have to collaborate with other disciplines, and provide clear written and verbal communication.
This type of thinking is, I believe, the same mentality that keeps women out of STEM career paths. Just because you have a small sample set that leads you to believe we are poor communicators, do not broad brush it and assume most software folk are as inept.
[+] [-] fizzbatter|11 years ago|reply
Now, my SO and I are both a bit "broken" individuals, so it's not like we're perfect by any stretch of the imagination.. but i'm certain that without a constant push for communication and a lack of "letting things stew" that we would be in a far worse state at best - and at worst, broken up.
Disclaimer: I'm not trying trying to say that my relationship is somehow more thanks to my efforts.. sometimes i feel like my push for communication can be a fault.
Regardless, it's one of the things i obsess about - being clear and open with each other.. and it's the things i obsess about that i define myself by. I wouldn't be surprised if this personality trait (obsessing about rules/structure/"healthy"-behavior) was more common in engineers. Though, the data seems impossible to meaningfully correlate.
[+] [-] onion2k|11 years ago|reply
The fact you're not great at vocalising your feelings on the spot (something I am definitely not good at) shouldn't be a barrier to communicating. You just have to find an approach that works for you.
[+] [-] QuercusMax|11 years ago|reply
Perhaps these same skills translate into relationship stability? If something isn't working, try tweaking things.
Or maybe our attention to detail just makes us better in the sack. :D
[+] [-] pconner|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gsam|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] xexers|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lectrick|11 years ago|reply
I like to think that I have some pretty good communication skills, and that they make me a better programmer.
[+] [-] balabaster|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bsbechtel|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cyberpanther|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Fuxy|11 years ago|reply
1.Certain professions attract certain personality types so you won't see a lot of extroverted social people choosing engineering as their profession
Extroverts social as they are will always have more options and are less likely to stick around if things get sour.
2.Financial stability means that even if the woman is unhappy in the relationship she is more likely to stick around because it offers stability.
Why do you think all the girls always have a boyfriend even if their not that into him.
Society tells them you're a looser if you don't have a boyfriend so they always keep one around that doesn't mean their not willing to upgrade though :)
Edit: I analogize for generalizing and saying engineers are all men it is mostly true however as pointed out in the comments below not in all cases however I cannot say anything about the reverse case.
[+] [-] protonfish|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Disruptive_Dave|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] RankingMember|11 years ago|reply
"Divorce is always good news. I know that sounds weird, but it's true because no good marriage has ever ended in divorce. That would be sad. If two people were married and ... they just had a great thing and then they got divorced, that would be really sad. But that has happened zero times."
[+] [-] tormeh|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] emodendroket|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cauterized|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] drpgq|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] emodendroket|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bitL|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 3JPLW|11 years ago|reply
Quite a few of the engineering professions have 50-60% the divorce rate of the national average, but after accounting for the above three covariances it's not quite as striking (putting them at 60-90% of expected). Agricultural engineers are still way down at 12% of expected, but they don't list the N for non-LE occupations.
Here's the actual article, but it's behind a pay wall. http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs11896-009-9057-8
Google scholar has a link to a publicly accessible version: http://faculty-course.insead.edu/popescu/UDJCore/2010/handou...
[+] [-] jay-saint|11 years ago|reply
More seriously, people with engineering backgrounds tend to be analytic and may have made more logical choices prior to marriage, that result in longer lasting relationships. I think that that problem solving mentality could also contribute.
[+] [-] nashashmi|11 years ago|reply
There is also stability of income and quality of life that comes into play. When there is stability in the professional field, an engineer has more time to dedicate to his family. That is a gigantic luxury in itself.
[+] [-] marknutter|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] JackFr|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gvb|11 years ago|reply
Locomotive engineers and operators 15.77
Stationary engineers and boiler operators 16.99
Operating engineers and other construction equipment operators 18.97
The "blue collar" engineers have a substantially higher divorce rate than most of the "white collar" engineering professions, but the transition by percentages compared to the those preceding them in the list was a lot smoother than I expected.
[+] [-] robotcookies|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] noir_lord|11 years ago|reply
Engineering has primarily been a male dominated environment and you work alongside other men.
Dancers and Bar Tenders (as mentioned in the overview) not so much.
[+] [-] jldugger|11 years ago|reply
1. Higher income. Like, substantially higher income. 2. Later marriage. People don't tend to get married in college, and I expect to find that people who get married early have higher divorce rates than average.
[+] [-] ckozlowski|11 years ago|reply
This is, I know, a weak argument at best, but I would toss out as something to ponder that perhaps there's a higher incidence of analytic types to dissect and improve their relationship.
...or simply inclined to remain with the status quo. You decide.
[+] [-] GFK_of_xmaspast|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vkjv|11 years ago|reply
Honestly, with money being one of the leading causes of divorce, I would say a reasonable assumption is just that engineers make more of it and are more likely to spend what they do have wisely.
[+] [-] jmadsen|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wolfgke|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jkot|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dwarfcadaver|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dagw|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jhugg|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Igglyboo|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] QuercusMax|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 3pt14159|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kazinator|11 years ago|reply
It is not particularly informative to know that boiler operators and construction operators have higher divorce rates than aerospace engineers.
[+] [-] aperture|11 years ago|reply
And what looks to be a slideshow presentation on the matter: http://maamodt.asp.radford.edu/Research%20-%20Forensic/SPCP%...
[+] [-] cafard|11 years ago|reply
[+] [-] anonymous8616|11 years ago|reply
Engineers are more likely to take a pragmatic approach instead of a sentimental "Oh no! He/She doesn't have exactly the same taste in vacations/home decor/friends/whatever, we must not be soulmates after all!"
[+] [-] unknown|11 years ago|reply
[deleted]