I don't think the other people are at fault here. I think it's reasonable to assume that someone with a stereotypically black name is black, just like it's reasonable to assume that a random IT professor is male based on the fact that 90%* actually are. As long as you owe up to your error when you notice it (and e.g. apologize). It's a reasonable optimization that works out more often than not.
The problem only starts when the treatment of the person depends on the category they belong to and if that difference in treatment is not based on reason and evidence.
We all make decisions and assumptions based on our past experiences. It's perfectly natural that if we keep seeing the same input leading to the same output over and over, we begin to associate that input with that output. Sometimes the input doesn't lead to the output, which helps us inform our future actions, but there's nothing inherently wrong with making assumptions and taking actions based on our experiences.
Using name is a reasonable way to optimize figuring out someone's race. The question is: why are we trying to figure out someone's race? If you're talking about reducing effort, isn't the easiest thing to just not ponder the question of someone's race? People wouldn't bother to try and answer that question if they didn't care about what the answer was.
Now, the fact that people care is not in and of itself evidence of racism. To some extent, people just want to put a face and a narrative to a name. The question is, what's in that narrative?
Yes and no. Surely the people handing his credit card to his black friends after receiving it from him have reason to know better.
Besides that, I think the point is not just that people assume he's black, which would just be a curiosity, but that that assumption shapes their attitudes toward him.
Our bureaucratic preoccupation with racial and gender categories is much like those who segmented bloodlines into Untouchables, or royalty. (As if it was ever impressive to be related to some glorified dictator called a "king".) Consider that, depending on your racial category, it may be ok for the US state to choke you to death in public.
Even just to speak normal English, you have to basically surveil into people's genders. (He/she. One consequence is you have to cram many people into a false category, like a bureaucrat only having yes/no on the form.)
It is absolutely unreasonable. When you say it "works out more often than not" I would ask "For whom?" Many snap judgments based on race lead to the death of unarmed black men and women.
Studies have shown that resumes with black-sounding names get fewer callbacks and we treat black men like white men with a criminal record.
I think you are absolutely right. The other point that can be made is that P(person is black | name=Jamaal, person is US citizen) is much higher than P(person is black | name=Jamaal), since that is a common name in Arabic and in Muslim countries http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jamal. One can argue that the extra "a" in the spelling of Jamaal as opposed to the more common transliteration Jamal is a marker but I don't think regular people notice this.
Note that the other weirdness is that the common US usage of "black" to commonly refer to African-Americans is very problematic: An arab may look dark skinned but most would never consider themselves "African" or there are African-Americans that have lighter skin colors than, say, people from Sri Lanka. Similarly for the label "white". For example, when we say "white men's advantage" there is an implicit assumption, not always stated or well-understood by users, that this refers to white men in the US, or perhaps more broadly to countries where there's a large population of "non-whites" that have been historically repressed.
Personally, when faced with a form that requires me to fill in race, I mark "other" or "does not want to disclose" rather than "white", since I don't feel I fully understand what the connotations of that label are for the purposes of that form.
I would push back on that view and say other people are absolutely at fault here. if thats not something we can't or won't own up to as a society, then we will have to continue to live with the consequences of stereotyping which, good and bad, harm us all in many subtle and not-so-subtle ways. difficult, but necessary.
We can make excuses for this behavior, but we shouldn't make it look OK by using the word "reasonable". It's certainly understandable why people make those assumptions, but those assumptions are neither based on reason nor fair.
I think it's reasonable to assume that someone with a stereotypically black name is black
It's easy to assume that. It really is a very rough guide though, so if you stick to it, don't be surprised if you end up looking like a complete idiot on several occasions throughout your life.
2: 90% of white America have never spoken to a black person let alone have a black friend.
3: So where do their stereotypes come from, rap?, news?, (with regards to height) NBA?
4: They don't like to talk about this and this will be flagged off HN.
It amazes me with so little to no interaction with a group, white America can infer a black persons character and be so confident in doing so.
EDIT:
"In fact, PRRI's data show that a full 75 percent of whites have "entirely white social networks without any minority presence." The same holds true for slightly less than two-thirds of black Americans."
Look at it another way 66% of black people say they do not have a white person in their social network. So roughly 34% of 14% of the population have a person in their social network from the white population. So how the hell can all these white people claim to have all these black friends? How can all these white people know so much about people they don't have meaningful interactions with?
As a white guy with a (very mildly) African American sounding name, I have had similar experiences. When I meet people in person after emailing them they sometimes seem surprised, and some later admit they expected me to be black. The worst example was when I was told by someone renting a room on craigslist that they couldn't rent to me because I was a "security threat", even though I had hardly said anything about myself. It must be tough for those who face that kind of attitude constantly and are unable to escape it.
of course they can escape it. they just have to change their name. that's what my family did for me, and what i will do for my kids if i have kids. as far as i'm concerned if you have serious professional ambitions in the US, you're being foolish if you keep an 'ethnic' sounding name.
keeping your disadvantageous name and arrogantly shaking your fist at the world to change to suit your political tastes is insane to me.
Couple of off the cuff thoughts: Why can't people use the expression "niger" in context? It was clearly meant as a racial insult, and I think people need to remember that that is the way it is commonly used. Replacing it with a placeholder doesn't make racism go away or make the word less racist, all it does it soften the racism used in that instance.
His TSA story is more likely fiction. Is he saying that there are "TSA" in London? And in either case I've never seen the TSA select people "randomly" by name alone (in fact they do their profiling based on appearance, not name, which is arguably even more insidious). Even if they DID select by name, how would he, a selectee know the names of everyone else selected at the same time? The whole story makes no sense and sounds made up (by someone who's never travelled or been randomly selected no less).
I've been randomly selected a handful of times, but they don't know my name when they do so.
Why can't people use the expression "ni[g]ger" in context?
People can use the expression in context and many do. Speaking as a black guy (but not representative of all blacks), I have a visceral reaction to the word[0] so when outlets self-censor, I see it as a small sign of respect and I appreciate it. YMMV of course.
I understand the arguments that "n-word" or "horrific racial expletive deleted" is awkward or may be seen as patronizing, but I see "nigger" (in nearly all contexts) as insulating. It's a tradeoff, and from my POV not using the work is preferable. Again, YMMV.
[..] all it does it soften the racism used in that instance.
I think you're correct, it does soften the racism, but I also think it improves relations. I'm okay with that.
Just to be clear, I'm just offering my own perspective here, I'm not trying to convince anyone to self-censor. If someone wants to scream "nigger, nigger, nigger" from the rooftops, go right ahead. Just don't expect me to ever listen to you.
I have an acquaintance who looks white but was named Mohammed (he is Kurdish). He changed his name to "Michael" because, as he said, "It's easier to say... like for example at the airport."
I agree about referencing the word "nigger", Louis CK has a bit where he says he hates the phrase "the n-word" because, "you still put the word 'nigger' into my head, so it's not like you didn't say it".
But socially one probably has to accept reality, there's a court case about a guy who was fired for saying the word, not using it in a derogatory way but just referring to the word itself.
I think names do trigger a lot of 'random' searches on their own. Whether by profiling by a computer that delegates to the TSA person or by that person if reading the ticket.
My father when travelling in the US gets pulled out for random searches 4 out of 5 times when boarding. I would think a grey haired suited Scandinavian businessman in his 60ies is less likely search candidate by looks. But our family name has a stem that may seem middle Eastern for some who does not know that is is clearly a Scandinavian name (ends in -sen). I put that down to poor profiling logic.
When another cousin when in the US also started to get pulled for 'random' searches on every flight then it got rather comical as he was a high ranked NATO officer at the time.
I deal with this from the exact opposite perspective. I have a very midwestern sounding name and people are often surprised when they meet me in person to see that I am a big black guy.
I can be in a waiting room and when my name is called, the person calling me is sometimes surprised when the 6'2" 250 pound black guy responds. I don't really see shock but I do see surprise.
I admit, I have been guilty of this as well. When I was working my way through college, I took a summer job at a machine shop. I was told that I'd be working with "Jorel" on a particular shift. I was expecting, for all the world, a black guy. Well, I showed up for the scheduled shift and I met Jorel. He was a young white guy. It immediately made sense to me. I said to him "Your dad is a comic book fan, isn't he?" and Jorel confirmed that he was. Then I said "With that name, people usually think that you're black, don't they?" and again he confirmed that they did. For us, that was the end of it. He was a nice enough guy and we worked well enough together.
I guess, for me, I never associate the name Jamal with black - to me it is arabic like Gamal Abdel Nasser. Then again I was born and raised in South America, so Gamal was not a curious name. It was the name that my "white" brother was given to by my middle eastern dad!
Don't worry, for the purposes of discrimination in the U.S. (and many other places, no doubt), stereotypically Arabic names are just as good as stereotypically African-American names. You're covered either way.
My name is Tyrel, I run into this a lot of the time as well.
I'm from New Hampshire, which has a very small black population (less than 2% I believe). It was always awkward when girlfriend's parents would make a big deal about "Oh my god you're dating a black man?" when they would tell their parents my name.
Another story is when I was in college, I joined a fraternity. The only black member at the time was disappointed, when we met he said, "Aw man, I thought you were black!"
My last story also is from college. I moved into a dorm where I had a black room mate named Jared. People would confuse him for me, and vice versa, a lot if they hadn't met either of us, but needed something from us. Saying to me "Is Tyrel around? Oh I thought you were Jared..." and the opposite to him I presume.
Over all, I don't have many problems with my name, but I do wish it wasn't people's first impression of me. I try to put my face as my avatar on everything, hoping that people aren't discriminating against my name when they do research on me, but that they discriminate for my abilities.
I am not black but I also know what it is to be discriminated. Most of people know it also, it is nearly impossible to belong always to the dominant/majoritarian group.
I grew up in a low-income suburb. When I went to college I was under estimated and segregated. The poors were, for the first time in my life, a minority. I really know how it feels. But I can also say that whinning about it never made my situation better, almost always made it bitter. Some of the rich, once we got to know eachother, included me in their activities. I believe that this can happen in all majority/minority conflicts if both parts are open minded.
The main problem, as I see it, is that majorities don't want to give in anything, and minorities want majorities to give in everything.
"In a high school soccer game I was called 'a white man with a [horrific racial expletive deleted] name.'"
Horrific racial expletive. That seems a bit... excessive? Let's elevate the horrificness of this word to the point where if someone utters it they get fined or jailed. That should teach 'em.
People are so ultra-politically correct these days I'm too scared to open my mouth for fear of offending someone, saying something sexist, racist, "white male privileged", not fat-accepting enough, etc. It's becoming insufferable.
Being an immigrant with both first and last names that people in US have hard time to pronounce let alone spell, I'd never turn the trick "My parents decided they wanted less traditional names for their children" on my children. In fact, I'm seriously thinking of legally changing my own name to look more American, because I'm tired of triple-checking my name spelling on each document and credit card, and responding to calls from people who cannot pronounce my name at all.
My wife, also from Oregon interestingly enough, has an Irish first name spelled in a "black" way (with a 'w' rather than a 'u'). Every now and then, hilarity ensues when she meets someone in person who was obviously expecting someone who looks different.
I have also an uncommon name for my country/peer group so I understand how he feels but don't take the easy path and make it just race related, it goes well beyond it. Some names have stereotypes attached that makes them a potential liability in your life (job applications, bullying, negative first opinion, wasted time, etc).
If I had a dollar for each time I had to explain how to write my name during my life, I would be rich by now. So many famous people have changed their name, there must be a reason for it..
Nigga please... The only horrific things about a word coming straight from the latin root for "black" are the linguistic segregation behind it and the fact that this segregation is now willingly enforced by the minorities themselves.
[+] [-] Kenji|10 years ago|reply
The problem only starts when the treatment of the person depends on the category they belong to and if that difference in treatment is not based on reason and evidence.
*example, may not be accurate
[+] [-] irl_zebra|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rayiner|10 years ago|reply
Now, the fact that people care is not in and of itself evidence of racism. To some extent, people just want to put a face and a narrative to a name. The question is, what's in that narrative?
[+] [-] emodendroket|10 years ago|reply
Besides that, I think the point is not just that people assume he's black, which would just be a curiosity, but that that assumption shapes their attitudes toward him.
[+] [-] calibraxis|10 years ago|reply
Even just to speak normal English, you have to basically surveil into people's genders. (He/she. One consequence is you have to cram many people into a false category, like a bureaucrat only having yes/no on the form.)
[+] [-] kazinator|10 years ago|reply
"Oh, I'm sorry Mr. Shigeru Kobayashi, I just ass ... "
"Yes, like other members of the rubble, you just assumed, thereby making an ALL out of U and ME."
[+] [-] kaa2102|10 years ago|reply
Studies have shown that resumes with black-sounding names get fewer callbacks and we treat black men like white men with a criminal record.
Are Emily and Greg More Employable than Lakisha and Jamal? http://www.nber.org/papers/w9873
Norton Pscyhology: Devah Pager and Dalton Conley discuss racism and the stigma of criminal record https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CofLE3q3Qh0
[+] [-] Jun8|10 years ago|reply
Note that the other weirdness is that the common US usage of "black" to commonly refer to African-Americans is very problematic: An arab may look dark skinned but most would never consider themselves "African" or there are African-Americans that have lighter skin colors than, say, people from Sri Lanka. Similarly for the label "white". For example, when we say "white men's advantage" there is an implicit assumption, not always stated or well-understood by users, that this refers to white men in the US, or perhaps more broadly to countries where there's a large population of "non-whites" that have been historically repressed.
Personally, when faced with a form that requires me to fill in race, I mark "other" or "does not want to disclose" rather than "white", since I don't feel I fully understand what the connotations of that label are for the purposes of that form.
[+] [-] anthonymartinez|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|10 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] rrss1122|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lotsofmangos|10 years ago|reply
It's easy to assume that. It really is a very rough guide though, so if you stick to it, don't be surprised if you end up looking like a complete idiot on several occasions throughout your life.
[+] [-] nashequilibrium|10 years ago|reply
1: 14% of the population is black,
2: 90% of white America have never spoken to a black person let alone have a black friend.
3: So where do their stereotypes come from, rap?, news?, (with regards to height) NBA?
4: They don't like to talk about this and this will be flagged off HN.
It amazes me with so little to no interaction with a group, white America can infer a black persons character and be so confident in doing so.
EDIT: "In fact, PRRI's data show that a full 75 percent of whites have "entirely white social networks without any minority presence." The same holds true for slightly less than two-thirds of black Americans."
Look at it another way 66% of black people say they do not have a white person in their social network. So roughly 34% of 14% of the population have a person in their social network from the white population. So how the hell can all these white people claim to have all these black friends? How can all these white people know so much about people they don't have meaningful interactions with?
[+] [-] jrells|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] beachstartup|10 years ago|reply
keeping your disadvantageous name and arrogantly shaking your fist at the world to change to suit your political tastes is insane to me.
[+] [-] unknown|10 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] Someone1234|10 years ago|reply
His TSA story is more likely fiction. Is he saying that there are "TSA" in London? And in either case I've never seen the TSA select people "randomly" by name alone (in fact they do their profiling based on appearance, not name, which is arguably even more insidious). Even if they DID select by name, how would he, a selectee know the names of everyone else selected at the same time? The whole story makes no sense and sounds made up (by someone who's never travelled or been randomly selected no less).
I've been randomly selected a handful of times, but they don't know my name when they do so.
[+] [-] Anechoic|10 years ago|reply
People can use the expression in context and many do. Speaking as a black guy (but not representative of all blacks), I have a visceral reaction to the word[0] so when outlets self-censor, I see it as a small sign of respect and I appreciate it. YMMV of course.
I understand the arguments that "n-word" or "horrific racial expletive deleted" is awkward or may be seen as patronizing, but I see "nigger" (in nearly all contexts) as insulating. It's a tradeoff, and from my POV not using the work is preferable. Again, YMMV.
[..] all it does it soften the racism used in that instance.
I think you're correct, it does soften the racism, but I also think it improves relations. I'm okay with that.
Just to be clear, I'm just offering my own perspective here, I'm not trying to convince anyone to self-censor. If someone wants to scream "nigger, nigger, nigger" from the rooftops, go right ahead. Just don't expect me to ever listen to you.
[0] Yes, even when other blacks use it
[+] [-] ta86868|10 years ago|reply
I agree about referencing the word "nigger", Louis CK has a bit where he says he hates the phrase "the n-word" because, "you still put the word 'nigger' into my head, so it's not like you didn't say it".
But socially one probably has to accept reality, there's a court case about a guy who was fired for saying the word, not using it in a derogatory way but just referring to the word itself.
[+] [-] ctdonath|10 years ago|reply
ETA: "TSA" including any entity providing TSA-style screening at the behest of the TSA.
[+] [-] pilsetnieks|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] flurdy|10 years ago|reply
My father when travelling in the US gets pulled out for random searches 4 out of 5 times when boarding. I would think a grey haired suited Scandinavian businessman in his 60ies is less likely search candidate by looks. But our family name has a stem that may seem middle Eastern for some who does not know that is is clearly a Scandinavian name (ends in -sen). I put that down to poor profiling logic.
When another cousin when in the US also started to get pulled for 'random' searches on every flight then it got rather comical as he was a high ranked NATO officer at the time.
[+] [-] stefantalpalaru|10 years ago|reply
You want to associate racism with words? How about "race" used as a synonym for "ethnicity"?
> Is he saying that there are "TSA" in London?
He could have been screened by the TSA prior to departure from US.
[+] [-] LordKano|10 years ago|reply
I can be in a waiting room and when my name is called, the person calling me is sometimes surprised when the 6'2" 250 pound black guy responds. I don't really see shock but I do see surprise.
I admit, I have been guilty of this as well. When I was working my way through college, I took a summer job at a machine shop. I was told that I'd be working with "Jorel" on a particular shift. I was expecting, for all the world, a black guy. Well, I showed up for the scheduled shift and I met Jorel. He was a young white guy. It immediately made sense to me. I said to him "Your dad is a comic book fan, isn't he?" and Jorel confirmed that he was. Then I said "With that name, people usually think that you're black, don't they?" and again he confirmed that they did. For us, that was the end of it. He was a nice enough guy and we worked well enough together.
[+] [-] rburhum|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jellicle|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wambotron|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tyrel|10 years ago|reply
I'm from New Hampshire, which has a very small black population (less than 2% I believe). It was always awkward when girlfriend's parents would make a big deal about "Oh my god you're dating a black man?" when they would tell their parents my name.
Another story is when I was in college, I joined a fraternity. The only black member at the time was disappointed, when we met he said, "Aw man, I thought you were black!"
My last story also is from college. I moved into a dorm where I had a black room mate named Jared. People would confuse him for me, and vice versa, a lot if they hadn't met either of us, but needed something from us. Saying to me "Is Tyrel around? Oh I thought you were Jared..." and the opposite to him I presume.
Over all, I don't have many problems with my name, but I do wish it wasn't people's first impression of me. I try to put my face as my avatar on everything, hoping that people aren't discriminating against my name when they do research on me, but that they discriminate for my abilities.
[+] [-] chengiz|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] galfarragem|10 years ago|reply
I grew up in a low-income suburb. When I went to college I was under estimated and segregated. The poors were, for the first time in my life, a minority. I really know how it feels. But I can also say that whinning about it never made my situation better, almost always made it bitter. Some of the rich, once we got to know eachother, included me in their activities. I believe that this can happen in all majority/minority conflicts if both parts are open minded.
The main problem, as I see it, is that majorities don't want to give in anything, and minorities want majorities to give in everything.
[+] [-] laichzeit0|10 years ago|reply
Horrific racial expletive. That seems a bit... excessive? Let's elevate the horrificness of this word to the point where if someone utters it they get fined or jailed. That should teach 'em.
People are so ultra-politically correct these days I'm too scared to open my mouth for fear of offending someone, saying something sexist, racist, "white male privileged", not fat-accepting enough, etc. It's becoming insufferable.
[+] [-] jimbobimbo|10 years ago|reply
Being an immigrant with both first and last names that people in US have hard time to pronounce let alone spell, I'd never turn the trick "My parents decided they wanted less traditional names for their children" on my children. In fact, I'm seriously thinking of legally changing my own name to look more American, because I'm tired of triple-checking my name spelling on each document and credit card, and responding to calls from people who cannot pronounce my name at all.
[+] [-] unknown|10 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] rayiner|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] viach|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] hittaruki|10 years ago|reply
Not sure if these are valid references, but:
1. https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20091003034818A...
2. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contraction_(grammar)
[+] [-] adestefan|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mathgeek|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] galfarragem|10 years ago|reply
If I had a dollar for each time I had to explain how to write my name during my life, I would be rich by now. So many famous people have changed their name, there must be a reason for it..
[+] [-] efa|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] stefantalpalaru|10 years ago|reply
Nigga please... The only horrific things about a word coming straight from the latin root for "black" are the linguistic segregation behind it and the fact that this segregation is now willingly enforced by the minorities themselves.
[+] [-] rfrey|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] emodendroket|10 years ago|reply
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[+] [-] amyjess|10 years ago|reply