The demonization of all things male has had a pernicious effect on boys and men over the last 20 years. I've seen it negatively impact friends and, worse, my own boys. Oone of the best things I ever did was cut the live TV feed and the commercials that only show men as drunken idiots, drunken leches, or bumbling idiots (notice: drunken and idiots is a repeating theme).
As a society, we need to come to terms with masculinity. That means men need to be able to be masculine without being domineering and without being castigated.
I think you're right about society's role, but I see a much more pernicious tendency that I think damages boys and, eventually, men. Society teaches boys to bottle up their feelings. "Be a man" means be strong, and don't show emotion. Crying is a sign of weakness. And god forbid you talk about your emotions...that's a female thing.
But the thing is, those activities are what allow us to be vulnerable and what allow us to bond with others. The more you suppress those urges, the more you end up feeling alone. And loneliness is perhaps the most understandable cause of suicide I can think of.
We need to stop sending this message to young boys. It's okay to express your feelings. It's okay to be vulnerable. You don't have to simply grit your teeth and toughen up to endure whatever is bothering you.
This is a product of the wrong people continuously trying to redefine masculinity to fit their own agenda, and most men are confused, shy, unattractive, have low self-esteem, are passive, etc. as a result of this.
These parties would rather men kill themselves over their identity crisis than those men rediscovering true masculinity - because they're afraid of the bad part. It's just the nature of things, Masculinity and Femininity both their good and bad parts, but we only shun one.
Demonization of all things male? That's just ridiculous. There are nasty things both men and women have to struggle with.
I'd say the problem with male suicides probably exists for longer than 20 years. Patriarchy has existed for a long time, and together with it its accompanying set of high expectations of men. Pressures to be strong, successful, never show emotion or weakness, to serve your family,.. there is nothing new there. It used to come with much more rewards, but feminism has eroded that away. So now we are kinda equal, while the old cultural norms still survive, causing pain to men.
Yes, name a tv show where the man is the idiot and the woman the smart or normal one (all of them). Name a sitcom where the man is smart and the woman an idiot (none of them, and 'Married with children' doesn't count, they were all idiots. Of course I'm not advocating portraying women as idiots).
You may be right about that, but there are plenty of societies worldwide that have not had the demonization of all things male, which show a similar pattern in suicides.
The only exceptions seem to be Bangladesh and China.
This indicates that, whilst it would be nice to have a simple one-size fits all reason for male suicides pretty much globally being higher than female, the picture is somewhat more complex than "We have been demonizing all things male".
My long - but casual - observation is this is not a phenomenon relegated to gender, but rather a common theme with the prevailing majority.
The ability to hold up traits common to those that are in power as a source of derision seems to have a cathartic function in both the recipient(s) and the sender(s).
And how is this related to suicide? Actually I think guys with especially masculine ambitions face the highest risk of suicide - which is also explained in the article.
I don't understand this. In most stories, arn't protagonists primarily male? Arn't they typically courageous, or intelligent, or unyielding, or strong, or determined?
> As a society, we need to come to terms with masculinity. That means men need to be able to be masculine without being domineering and without being castigated.
You're doing the exact same thing you're complaining about. This is a social problem towards men, it is not a mans problem they need to solve for themselves.
The issue has nothing to do with masculinity and everything to do with the current crop of overly loud feminists. They won, and in doing so they left behind half the population. It's time for society to remember that other half.
"In every country in the world..."
Obviously including extreme male centered societies like Iran and Saudi Arabia
"middle-aged men are most at risk" So obviously not a recent attack on male children. Indeed the problem is greatest among people who are older then the average poster to this thread let alone their often hypothetical children.
There is obviously a serious problem here, apparently related to age, and instead of a sensible discussion it's shoehorned into some men's right agenda. It appears that HN is frequented by individuals so extremist it clouds even their basic critical thinking.
It makes about as much sense as claiming George Price's mental illness didn't cause his suicide but his generosity did it. Or voting to the front page an article about ending the fiscal "evils" of democracy by building an unseaworthy boat.
A few years ago I was eating dinner and watching the local 6PM TV news broadcast. The lead story: "Friends and family mourn the tragic death of a young woman who killed herself..." Half an hour later: "A young man has become the latest statistic in a string of suicides..."
I don't know if it was deliberate, but it definitely brought to mind the quote attributed (most likely incorrectly) to Stalin concerning deaths, tragedies, and statistics.
Vaguely frustrating that this thread had been taken over by MRAs.
Suicide is complex. Suicide is common - it's a leading cause of death for some men.
We need to make it acceptable for men to seek help when they are suicidal.
This does not mean that we need men to talk and talk and talk about their intimate feelings. But we do need to make it so men can say "I'm not having a good day" and have someone else say "is it the kind of thing you want to talk to me about? Or is it the kind of thing you might want to talk to a doctor about?"
Spend a day in family court. Nowhere are the expectations of perfectionism for men lower, but rules and the penalties higher. The suicide and early death numbers for men whi transit this system are predictably high.
Socially, it is unacceptable for men to be "losers". To have any social standing men have to do what is "respectable". Losing a job, for example, is not.
Why can't a man be appreciated for who he is? Why does he have lower standing if he makes min wage or does something boring? Maybe he has other things he takes care of. Maybe he has a deep personality and even deeper interests.
To be honest, once I realized that this is how males are treated in real world, I started having more respect for men in any situation...for I know what they've been through. The world is cursed for men.
The media have been churning out self-reinforcing stereotypes for decades. The effects are as subtle as lethal.
A few years ago I was very stressed out. I thought that talking about my problems (college, family, whatever) would have helped me. I shared my worries and fears with a few my female friends. Bad idea.
> “A man who’s needing help is seen as a figure of fun”
That must have been horrible. I had a similar experience, but what I got out of it is that I relearned what "friend" actually stands for and that not many exist in my life. "Close aquaintances" are more common, but friends are rare.
The article begins with what appears to be a misstatement of fact. China is an unusual country where the female suicide rate has been higher than the male rate for a long time.
It's a bit of a shame, because I had scanned the first page in the past and the higher female to male ratio would have jumped out at me since it's unusual. I'm not suggesting in any way that there's any deliberate suppression of info here, the reason the male/female numbers for China aren't printed in the summary is because reporting is controversial (official govt numbers are at odds with other independent studies), and so is complicated enough to warrant its own page.
It is worth a look, with some interesting implications.
This article points out something I've felt intuitively for the last few years.
Can anyone recommend any vacation destinations or some other form of a get-away for a week or two? I've been getting really stressed out lately, probably a burn out. Have been thinking about some sort of a vacation anywhere from a cruise to meditation retreat, can't make up my mind. Any recommendations?
Not to derail this topic but this article outlined some symptoms I have, feel like I need a break.
Go camping or rent a place some place reasonably calm or unfamiliar, and stay there for two weeks.
Where exactly matters little, the point is to make it two weeks during which you ignore work and aren't watching news and TV all day long. Your body and mind needs about a week to snap out of your life routine and start resting -- which it does during the second week.
If you're into Buddhism, you could always consider a retreat at a Vipassana center. They're affordable and great opportunities for self-reflection and spiritual work.
Social perfectionism? Maybe just having a spouse like Livvy was enough to do it... geez. People who are evil, uncaring, and selfish can also cause others to feel depressed.
I remember reading a strange question on Quora once. A woman was trying to figure out why her husband was always drunk and suicidal. "He used to be the perfect man! I don't understand why he's acting like this now." Of course, in the next paragraph, she mentions that it all started right after she had cheated on him. The disconnect between her behavior and her failure to recognize its consequences was staggering.
If you want deaths registered in 2013 (note the registered there. Somone could die in 2012 but have a death registered in 2013) you want this page: http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/subnational-health4/suicides-i... which links to a spreadsheet with the data.
They use a clear definition of what they count as suicide.
> In every country in the world, male suicides outnumber female. The mystery is why?
It's not mysterious at all ... it's obvious. Men face stricter social judgement and less psychological support.
> Less than 5 per cent do. So mental illness is not an explanation.
What? First of all that is a lot and second of all it is no secret that a very severe depression often keeps people from contacting a doctor and being diagnosed. In Germany you are facing easily several months until treatment. When do you contact a doc - when you are suffering the worst - when do you commit suicide? - then - and you are not diagnosed yet.
Suicide is a violent crime, the killing of a human being.
Now, if we believe Wikipedia, then around 90% of homicides in the US will be committed by males. It seems reasonable that the male-female ratio should be about the same in the UK.
Then a 0.8 ratio of male to female suicides could be accounted for by the increased male homicide rate alone.
Perhaps men access certain modes of physical violence (guns?) more easily, but how are the psychological states of murder and suicide related at all? I understand amok/revenge murder-suicides but most suicides aren't that. "Violent crime" doesn't seem like a useful way to carve up reality here.
Perhaps the simple principle that behind every great love/success lays a great suicide. You can't give yourself completely and keep the man inside. Maybe current society places too much value (amongst men) on complete commitment which in turn leads to a type of internal suicide, a loss of self and identity, which may manifest itself in a less internal but instead physical response (a true suicide).
Crying IS a sign of weakness and immaturity. Ever wondered why children cry more than adults?
We're turning into a bunch of sissy, "touchy feely" men in the west - it's enough to drive anyone to suicide. This whole political correctness thing has gone too far - and I say that as a minority myself. Yeah, so I'll get downvoted - so what?! - Newsflash - there are more important things in life than points on HN!
It's an interesting read. What I've taken from it and from my own experience is that even though the Confucian scholar may be wise and poor, largely he is happy. My experience in life has been that the times I've been the happiest are the times when I've had the least and haven't been chasing power and wealth. The times when I've been most unhappy are those when by and large I would have outwardly been considered the most successful.
As they say, money... and by extension, power, cannot buy happiness... and for all the retorts to that: The illusion of happiness doesn't count as happiness. The illusion is just a distraction from your own inner turmoil... and it will only distract you for so long before you realize that for all your wealth and power, true happiness lies within.
I think this article puts the euphemism 'social perfectionism' on the subtle, and in some cases blatant anti-male stance that pervades US and UK society today.
Sports teams fall over themselves to wear pink for Mother's Day, hardly anyone celebrates Father's Day. [1] Time Magazine publishes an article on how "Men are Obsolete". [2] Politicians routinely trumpet the 77% pay gap despite it being "more complicated than that" at best, and false at worst. [3] Fathers are routinely mocked and disparaged in TV commercials, and shown as the bumbling idiot. [4] A Columbia student has gained national acclaim after doing a "art performance" accusing a fellow student of rape [5] while he (despite having been cleared by the University) is still a pariah. [6] Meanwhile, a female teacher in California who had sex with her 14-year old male student gets only two years in prison (note that the article doesn't ever say "rape", even though it is statutory rape).[7]
Given these, is it any surprise that the average man who is mocked by society thinks of committing suicide after his wife commits infidelity multiple times, and then gets the house through no-fault divorce laws? This has nothing to do with so-called perfectionism.
To be fair, the article covers this in one succinct sentence in the middle, which is, "In the UK and other Western societies, it sometimes feels as if we collectively decided, at some point around the mid-1980s, that men are awful." -- which I think is a far more accurate statement.
Men aren't killing themselves because nobody celebrates fathers day. And they're not killing themselves because sitcom dads are morons. They're killing themselves because they feel they have failed the people around them, and can't live with the shame. This pressure to succeed was not invented by feminists, and has existed for many years. Both women and men unconsciously perpetuate a toxic idea of masculinity which keeps men from seeking help,
This masculinity is the cause of your other problems too:
Nobody celebrates father's day because according to society's version of masculinity, men aren't allowed to be sentimental. Getting cards and flowers isn't exactly a manly thing.
Male victims of statutory rape are rarely considered to be victims, because according to our twisted view of masculinity, males are always supposed to want sex. Everytime a female teacher is caught having sex with an underage male student, someone jokes that the young student "scored a hot babe" or something to that effect.
Men on TV are bumbling idiots because men are the primary audience for these shows. The protagonists are always average, unremakable men so that the average man can identify with them. The women characters are always sharp witted and shrewd because they are the antagonists.
Terrible cases for sure but none makes being a man any harder than being a woman. Life can be equally shit. I just think women vent things off better than men do.
huh? I hardly feel threatened by basically everything you just listed there. Do you?
I get the feeling if you asked most women: "Do you think men are awful?" The answer would be "Yes but we love them anyway."
and, to be on a less cutsey point.
There was a time in my life where I was seriously depressed, and it was not because I thought society treated men poorly on average. It was because I thought I would have no place in society.
So at the very least for this poster, my experience directly contradicts you. Hardly scientific, but I trust my own eyes.
When it comes right down to the basics, with humans as with most species, males are less useful than females. Females have an inbuilt basic purpose, males have to prove their usefulness to the species/tribe/society. However tragic it may be, maybe it's just perfectly natural behaviour for the "superfluous" males to give up. I guess the opposite reaction would be to go around venting their frustration by raping and pillaging.
(And no, I'm not writing this from the safe distance of a successful male. I've been close to that edge, like many of us, and I have no illusion I may not end up there again.)
[+] [-] SoftwareMaven|10 years ago|reply
As a society, we need to come to terms with masculinity. That means men need to be able to be masculine without being domineering and without being castigated.
[+] [-] curun1r|10 years ago|reply
But the thing is, those activities are what allow us to be vulnerable and what allow us to bond with others. The more you suppress those urges, the more you end up feeling alone. And loneliness is perhaps the most understandable cause of suicide I can think of.
We need to stop sending this message to young boys. It's okay to express your feelings. It's okay to be vulnerable. You don't have to simply grit your teeth and toughen up to endure whatever is bothering you.
[+] [-] redml|10 years ago|reply
These parties would rather men kill themselves over their identity crisis than those men rediscovering true masculinity - because they're afraid of the bad part. It's just the nature of things, Masculinity and Femininity both their good and bad parts, but we only shun one.
[+] [-] bakhy|10 years ago|reply
I'd say the problem with male suicides probably exists for longer than 20 years. Patriarchy has existed for a long time, and together with it its accompanying set of high expectations of men. Pressures to be strong, successful, never show emotion or weakness, to serve your family,.. there is nothing new there. It used to come with much more rewards, but feminism has eroded that away. So now we are kinda equal, while the old cultural norms still survive, causing pain to men.
Patriarchy is the common enemy.
[+] [-] lazyant|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Squarel|10 years ago|reply
The only exceptions seem to be Bangladesh and China. This indicates that, whilst it would be nice to have a simple one-size fits all reason for male suicides pretty much globally being higher than female, the picture is somewhat more complex than "We have been demonizing all things male".
[+] [-] nkozyra|10 years ago|reply
The ability to hold up traits common to those that are in power as a source of derision seems to have a cathartic function in both the recipient(s) and the sender(s).
[+] [-] senorito|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] GhotiFish|10 years ago|reply
I don't understand.
[+] [-] mreiland|10 years ago|reply
You're doing the exact same thing you're complaining about. This is a social problem towards men, it is not a mans problem they need to solve for themselves.
The issue has nothing to do with masculinity and everything to do with the current crop of overly loud feminists. They won, and in doing so they left behind half the population. It's time for society to remember that other half.
[+] [-] unknown|10 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] whybroke|10 years ago|reply
"middle-aged men are most at risk" So obviously not a recent attack on male children. Indeed the problem is greatest among people who are older then the average poster to this thread let alone their often hypothetical children.
There is obviously a serious problem here, apparently related to age, and instead of a sensible discussion it's shoehorned into some men's right agenda. It appears that HN is frequented by individuals so extremist it clouds even their basic critical thinking.
It makes about as much sense as claiming George Price's mental illness didn't cause his suicide but his generosity did it. Or voting to the front page an article about ending the fiscal "evils" of democracy by building an unseaworthy boat.
[+] [-] cperciva|10 years ago|reply
I don't know if it was deliberate, but it definitely brought to mind the quote attributed (most likely incorrectly) to Stalin concerning deaths, tragedies, and statistics.
[+] [-] DanBC|10 years ago|reply
Suicide is complex. Suicide is common - it's a leading cause of death for some men.
We need to make it acceptable for men to seek help when they are suicidal.
This does not mean that we need men to talk and talk and talk about their intimate feelings. But we do need to make it so men can say "I'm not having a good day" and have someone else say "is it the kind of thing you want to talk to me about? Or is it the kind of thing you might want to talk to a doctor about?"
[+] [-] rrggrr|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] NTDF9|10 years ago|reply
Socially, it is unacceptable for men to be "losers". To have any social standing men have to do what is "respectable". Losing a job, for example, is not.
Why can't a man be appreciated for who he is? Why does he have lower standing if he makes min wage or does something boring? Maybe he has other things he takes care of. Maybe he has a deep personality and even deeper interests.
To be honest, once I realized that this is how males are treated in real world, I started having more respect for men in any situation...for I know what they've been through. The world is cursed for men.
[+] [-] Red_Tarsius|10 years ago|reply
A few years ago I was very stressed out. I thought that talking about my problems (college, family, whatever) would have helped me. I shared my worries and fears with a few my female friends. Bad idea.
> “A man who’s needing help is seen as a figure of fun”
[+] [-] tdkl|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] M8|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tokenadult|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] geebee|10 years ago|reply
I had read the overview page on wikipedia, where the numbers aren't broken down by men and women for China
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_suicide_ra...
instead, they provide a link here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_in_China
It's a bit of a shame, because I had scanned the first page in the past and the higher female to male ratio would have jumped out at me since it's unusual. I'm not suggesting in any way that there's any deliberate suppression of info here, the reason the male/female numbers for China aren't printed in the summary is because reporting is controversial (official govt numbers are at odds with other independent studies), and so is complicated enough to warrant its own page.
It is worth a look, with some interesting implications.
[+] [-] fierycatnet|10 years ago|reply
Can anyone recommend any vacation destinations or some other form of a get-away for a week or two? I've been getting really stressed out lately, probably a burn out. Have been thinking about some sort of a vacation anywhere from a cruise to meditation retreat, can't make up my mind. Any recommendations?
Not to derail this topic but this article outlined some symptoms I have, feel like I need a break.
[+] [-] voltagex_|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ddebernardy|10 years ago|reply
Where exactly matters little, the point is to make it two weeks during which you ignore work and aren't watching news and TV all day long. Your body and mind needs about a week to snap out of your life routine and start resting -- which it does during the second week.
[+] [-] jdpigeon|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Xcelerate|10 years ago|reply
I remember reading a strange question on Quora once. A woman was trying to figure out why her husband was always drunk and suicidal. "He used to be the perfect man! I don't understand why he's acting like this now." Of course, in the next paragraph, she mentions that it all started right after she had cheated on him. The disconnect between her behavior and her failure to recognize its consequences was staggering.
[+] [-] DanBC|10 years ago|reply
If you want to know suicide rates in different regions you want the (unfortunately named) NUTS3 document: http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/about-ons/business-transparency/fr...
If you want deaths registered in 2013 (note the registered there. Somone could die in 2012 but have a death registered in 2013) you want this page: http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/subnational-health4/suicides-i... which links to a spreadsheet with the data.
They use a clear definition of what they count as suicide.
[+] [-] senorito|10 years ago|reply
It's not mysterious at all ... it's obvious. Men face stricter social judgement and less psychological support.
> Less than 5 per cent do. So mental illness is not an explanation.
What? First of all that is a lot and second of all it is no secret that a very severe depression often keeps people from contacting a doctor and being diagnosed. In Germany you are facing easily several months until treatment. When do you contact a doc - when you are suffering the worst - when do you commit suicide? - then - and you are not diagnosed yet.
[+] [-] esthlos|10 years ago|reply
Suicide is a violent crime, the killing of a human being.
Now, if we believe Wikipedia, then around 90% of homicides in the US will be committed by males. It seems reasonable that the male-female ratio should be about the same in the UK.
Then a 0.8 ratio of male to female suicides could be accounted for by the increased male homicide rate alone.
The Wikipedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_differences_in_crime
[+] [-] sukilot|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jongraehl|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ajuc|10 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] vegancap|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ryanx435|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] catlover99|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] morpheous|10 years ago|reply
We're turning into a bunch of sissy, "touchy feely" men in the west - it's enough to drive anyone to suicide. This whole political correctness thing has gone too far - and I say that as a minority myself. Yeah, so I'll get downvoted - so what?! - Newsflash - there are more important things in life than points on HN!
[+] [-] ryanx435|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] balabaster|10 years ago|reply
As they say, money... and by extension, power, cannot buy happiness... and for all the retorts to that: The illusion of happiness doesn't count as happiness. The illusion is just a distraction from your own inner turmoil... and it will only distract you for so long before you realize that for all your wealth and power, true happiness lies within.
[+] [-] amelius|10 years ago|reply
I guess the world is turning more social, and women are generally better at that game.
Men are losing ground. We are turning into accessories.
[+] [-] parennoob|10 years ago|reply
Sports teams fall over themselves to wear pink for Mother's Day, hardly anyone celebrates Father's Day. [1] Time Magazine publishes an article on how "Men are Obsolete". [2] Politicians routinely trumpet the 77% pay gap despite it being "more complicated than that" at best, and false at worst. [3] Fathers are routinely mocked and disparaged in TV commercials, and shown as the bumbling idiot. [4] A Columbia student has gained national acclaim after doing a "art performance" accusing a fellow student of rape [5] while he (despite having been cleared by the University) is still a pariah. [6] Meanwhile, a female teacher in California who had sex with her 14-year old male student gets only two years in prison (note that the article doesn't ever say "rape", even though it is statutory rape).[7]
Given these, is it any surprise that the average man who is mocked by society thinks of committing suicide after his wife commits infidelity multiple times, and then gets the house through no-fault divorce laws? This has nothing to do with so-called perfectionism.
To be fair, the article covers this in one succinct sentence in the middle, which is, "In the UK and other Western societies, it sometimes feels as if we collectively decided, at some point around the mid-1980s, that men are awful." -- which I think is a far more accurate statement.
[1] http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/granderson-met-ya...
[2] http://time.com/179/men-are-obsolete/
[3] http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/doublex/2013/08/gende...
[4] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGCTFjFiNu4
[5] http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/10/29...
[6] http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/02/03/columbia-st...
[7] http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/05/07/amy-beck-gets-2-yea...
[+] [-] dang|10 years ago|reply
This entire thread is a train wreck, but this comment is one of the places the tracks were blown up.
[+] [-] meatysnapper|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] normloman|10 years ago|reply
This masculinity is the cause of your other problems too:
Nobody celebrates father's day because according to society's version of masculinity, men aren't allowed to be sentimental. Getting cards and flowers isn't exactly a manly thing.
Male victims of statutory rape are rarely considered to be victims, because according to our twisted view of masculinity, males are always supposed to want sex. Everytime a female teacher is caught having sex with an underage male student, someone jokes that the young student "scored a hot babe" or something to that effect.
Men on TV are bumbling idiots because men are the primary audience for these shows. The protagonists are always average, unremakable men so that the average man can identify with them. The women characters are always sharp witted and shrewd because they are the antagonists.
[+] [-] drumdance|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mavdi|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] smorrow|10 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] GhotiFish|10 years ago|reply
I get the feeling if you asked most women: "Do you think men are awful?" The answer would be "Yes but we love them anyway."
and, to be on a less cutsey point.
There was a time in my life where I was seriously depressed, and it was not because I thought society treated men poorly on average. It was because I thought I would have no place in society.
So at the very least for this poster, my experience directly contradicts you. Hardly scientific, but I trust my own eyes.
[+] [-] makeitsuckless|10 years ago|reply
(And no, I'm not writing this from the safe distance of a successful male. I've been close to that edge, like many of us, and I have no illusion I may not end up there again.)