tl;dr lymphatic nodes go all the way up the back of your brain and into your sinuses. We'd been ripping them out and throwing them away every time we did autopsies or dissections because they were attached to the inside of the skull. Oops.
I'm not a doctor or neuroscientist, but this strikes me as a significant find if I'm understanding it correctly, right? "We were pretty sure the lymphatic system doesn't directly connect to the brain. Well we were wrong, (points) there it is."
We've known that there had to be a brain/immune connection of some sort. We didn't know that there was a tube.
Remember that most of the interesting stuff in biology is invisible to the naked eye. Also, despite a few hundred years of poking around in corpses, we're still pretty crude in terms of what we can see and understand anatomically. The assumption that we have this stuff "mostly figured out" strikes me more as wishful thinking than fact.
It's interesting to find a new tube lurking around, but then, it sounds like a pretty small tube. Animals are messy on the inside. Also, dark.
I'm not a doctor or neuroscientist either, but from what I gather it is indeed significant.
It potentially makes the link between the brain and the body chemically study-able. Up to now there's always been the assumption of a brain/blood barrier stopping much of the chemical transfers. Now it appears there's a mechanism that might bypass that.
Again, this is just what I gather from reading. I have no special expertise.
So I have MS. I go to any link that has to do with the Immune system. Recently I see tons of "discoveries" and attempts to link it to MS. Which gets me excited but than I start to think how much of this is truth and how much is bullshit? Or that MS and others like it are so complex that all of the findings are true... Either way starting to have a hard time finding hope in any of these articles.
I think we are just beginning to scratch the surface of the link between our immune systems and things like MS. I think the fact that we have so much coming to light bodes well. I do think much of it is overstated; but that there is so much activity makes me think we'll start seeing real progress.
In case you didn't see it earlier (a week or two ago, perhaps in a comment somewhere?) http://www.nih.gov/researchmatters/january2015/01122015reset... Apparently reseting the immune system can halt MS to a certain degree. And that's what I think our real progress will be: by degrees, because those things are complex.
One reason why researchers inappropriately link their findings to a disease is because grant agencies don't really fund basic research anymore. So if you want to do basic research, you just think of the most relevant disease and spin the impact of your results when reporting back to the grant agency and to the press. The actual paper won't actual make any grand claims, except something at the end of the discussion that's like "oh and this will let us figure out MS."
The problem is that basic research really is crucial to understanding many diseases, but you can't get it funded because it's not sexy enough (or really, because funding has been cut so much in most countries). So on one hand, the claims that you see are definitely blown out of proportion, but it doesn't mean that something useful wasn't learned. You'd have to read the paper to really know.
I risk getting downvoted for this, but have you tried any dietary changes? There are cases of people with MS who have seen tremendous improvement on a low histamine or paleo style diet. There are no guarantees, of course, but what do you have to lose? I would think it would be worth the inconvenience of trying it out for a few months even if the odds of success are very small.
On the bullshit side column, what's your view on Naltrexone? I take it for Crohn's and it has helped me a lot and know of many MS patients who have benefited from it too.
> The vessels were detected after Louveau developed a method to mount a mouse’s meninges – the membranes covering the brain – on a single slide so that they could be examined as a whole. “It was fairly easy, actually,” he said. “There was one trick: We fixed the meninges within the skullcap, so that the tissue is secured in its physiological condition, and then we dissected it."
Can someone explain what it means to fix the meninges to the skullcap? Do they mean they attached it to the skull bone? How then do they mount a curved bone to a slide?
They're referring to fixation [0], or preservation of the tissue, and not to affixation, the attachment of something.
So, basically, they fixed the tissue prior to removing it from the skull, causing it to keep form. Whereas, if they removed the tissue from the skull and then chemically fixed it, the tissue would have already lost form and the lymph would be undetectable (no longer be in original form).
Think about a cake in a pan. Baking = fixing. Remove the cake before "fixing" it, and it's a plot of mess. "Fix" it first, and you have a free-standing cake, it'll hold shape. Bad analogy, sorry. :)
I totally understand the feeling, but on the other hand, it's incredible that there is so much to explore, so many new things to learn, see and experience. Yes, everything around seems to be pretty complex, at least considering our current abilities [0], but I believe that we can choose how we look at the world/problems - pragmatic optimism may help with feeling overwhelmed :).
[0] Sometimes I think that the perceived complexity of the universe says more about the mind than the universe itself.
Awesome finding, I hope it is confirmed soon. Many neurodegenerative diseases are known to involve an immune component, but how that might occur has been a mystery.
It has very significant implications for diseases such as Alzheimer's disease, Lou Gehrig's disease (aka Amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, ALS), multiple sclerosis, Parkinson's disease, etc.
> "treatment of neurological diseases ranging from autism to Alzheimer’s"
It upsets me that the author keep referring autism as a disease. A high functioning autistic would be very offended if you say that their way of thinking is a disease.
Note to the downvoters: A developmental range of disorders is not a disease. If you don't agree you are invited to comment.
"Disease" is commonly used as a catch-all word for any malfunctioning of the body, including of the brain. For example if you click the medical definition (3rd bullet) on this page:
I am thinking this may be the reason vaccines appeared to cause autism. Of course, this is not a reason not to vaccinate, but the point of vaccines is to invoke the immune system.
Thanks to the HN comments which assured that it is important. Otherwise after reading the first sentence and processing it with standard sensational filtering regex of my brain, I wouldn't have proceeded forward.
"In a [stunning|amazing] discovery that overturns [years|decades|centuries] of [textbook teaching|beliefs|research] [researchers|scientists] at the <XYZ Lab> have discovered that the <PQR premise> holds false."
Lymphatic tracing is generally more often done with dyes in the case of removal of sentinal nodes due to e.g. cancers.
However, there been work in injecting radioimmunoagent tracers into lymphatics especially in the case of melanomas. The likely reason why these haven't before detected these meningeal lymphatic vessels is likely because: (1) We don't bother imaging the brain because "the brain doesn't have lymphatics" and (2) tracers generally flow with the direction of fluid and the direction of lympth from the CNS is likely efferent rather than afferent.
Furthermore it is difficult these days to do such experiments especially on live subjects "just because".
Well ... it's great that finally the physiological structures of this connection are unveiled, but it's been known for a long time that you can measurably positively affect your immune system by means of meditation which is a mental process.
Self-promotion is suspect in this highly competitive, and not infrequently nasty field. It was known that there was some transport mechanism--now there are details. But I would caution some skepticism, especially when the discoverer trumpets the extraordinary significance of the discovery.
I wonder if I will be alive if they ever figure out how the Placebo Effect works? With discoveries like this--maybe? I always used the Placebo Effect as the existence of a God. I will probally be proved wrong by science, if God decides to give me a few years? (Yes, I have faith. I am probably delusional? It helps me get through the day. I don't want to offend atheists? So, please don't hammer me.)
There's no particular reason to believe that the placebo effect is nonphysical other than the fact that we don't know exactly how it works. Lots of things fall into that category.
You can ascribe God to dark matter and placebo effects, but you just have a God of the Gaps.
The placebo effect is not that mysterious, and doesn't need religion to make sense. Opioids and neurotransmitters such as dopamine play a large part. The neurological and psychosomatic mechanisms have not been all figured out, but the solutions are not found in superstition.
If you really cared about the placebo effect, you would be reading papers on it and its mechanism. The placebo effect is not that mysterious: many instances can be traced to specifics like confirmation bias, genetics (particularly COMT variants), regression to the mean, etc.
I think I see what you mean and was looking for question like this, which is:
Does it mean that brain can control your immune system?
I don't think so. It looks like immune system protects your brain though. Also I am not medical scientist and it would be nice to hear others opinions.
[+] [-] summerdown2|10 years ago|reply
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/natu...
[+] [-] gwern|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] anigbrowl|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] refurb|10 years ago|reply
Dural sinuses, not nasal sinuses.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dural_venous_sinuses
[+] [-] kazinator|10 years ago|reply
It follows that we also rip them out when we open the skull to perform surgeries! Quite possibly, they don't grow back.
I hypothesize that some brain injuries due to impact could tear them too.
[+] [-] spyder|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fixermark|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] timr|10 years ago|reply
Remember that most of the interesting stuff in biology is invisible to the naked eye. Also, despite a few hundred years of poking around in corpses, we're still pretty crude in terms of what we can see and understand anatomically. The assumption that we have this stuff "mostly figured out" strikes me more as wishful thinking than fact.
It's interesting to find a new tube lurking around, but then, it sounds like a pretty small tube. Animals are messy on the inside. Also, dark.
[+] [-] summerdown2|10 years ago|reply
It potentially makes the link between the brain and the body chemically study-able. Up to now there's always been the assumption of a brain/blood barrier stopping much of the chemical transfers. Now it appears there's a mechanism that might bypass that.
Again, this is just what I gather from reading. I have no special expertise.
[+] [-] MrBunny|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] swsieber|10 years ago|reply
In case you didn't see it earlier (a week or two ago, perhaps in a comment somewhere?) http://www.nih.gov/researchmatters/january2015/01122015reset... Apparently reseting the immune system can halt MS to a certain degree. And that's what I think our real progress will be: by degrees, because those things are complex.
[+] [-] 88e282102ae2e5b|10 years ago|reply
The problem is that basic research really is crucial to understanding many diseases, but you can't get it funded because it's not sexy enough (or really, because funding has been cut so much in most countries). So on one hand, the claims that you see are definitely blown out of proportion, but it doesn't mean that something useful wasn't learned. You'd have to read the paper to really know.
[+] [-] BadCookie|10 years ago|reply
Here's an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KLjgBLwH3Wc
[+] [-] mojobot|10 years ago|reply
It has helped him deal with things.
[+] [-] rollthehard6|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|10 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] nate_meurer|10 years ago|reply
> The vessels were detected after Louveau developed a method to mount a mouse’s meninges – the membranes covering the brain – on a single slide so that they could be examined as a whole. “It was fairly easy, actually,” he said. “There was one trick: We fixed the meninges within the skullcap, so that the tissue is secured in its physiological condition, and then we dissected it."
Can someone explain what it means to fix the meninges to the skullcap? Do they mean they attached it to the skull bone? How then do they mount a curved bone to a slide?
[+] [-] richardbrevig|10 years ago|reply
They're referring to fixation [0], or preservation of the tissue, and not to affixation, the attachment of something.
So, basically, they fixed the tissue prior to removing it from the skull, causing it to keep form. Whereas, if they removed the tissue from the skull and then chemically fixed it, the tissue would have already lost form and the lymph would be undetectable (no longer be in original form).
Think about a cake in a pan. Baking = fixing. Remove the cake before "fixing" it, and it's a plot of mess. "Fix" it first, and you have a free-standing cake, it'll hold shape. Bad analogy, sorry. :)
[0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixation_(histology)
Edit: forgot reference.
[+] [-] mkagenius|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] iyn|10 years ago|reply
[0] Sometimes I think that the perceived complexity of the universe says more about the mind than the universe itself.
[+] [-] BadCookie|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] msie|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kazinator|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pcrh|10 years ago|reply
It has very significant implications for diseases such as Alzheimer's disease, Lou Gehrig's disease (aka Amyotrophic lateral sclerosis, ALS), multiple sclerosis, Parkinson's disease, etc.
[+] [-] pmelendez|10 years ago|reply
It upsets me that the author keep referring autism as a disease. A high functioning autistic would be very offended if you say that their way of thinking is a disease.
Note to the downvoters: A developmental range of disorders is not a disease. If you don't agree you are invited to comment.
[+] [-] snowwrestler|10 years ago|reply
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disorder
It jumps you to an anchor on the Disease page.
So: even if it offends you, it is not incorrect usage.
I did not downvote you.
[+] [-] proksoup|10 years ago|reply
Ableism and this article comes to mind http://www.autistichoya.com/p/ableist-words-and-terms-to-avo...
(that their* way of thinking)
[+] [-] austinjp|10 years ago|reply
The diagram of the "new" human lymphatic system is in the press release not the research paper.
I do recognise the value of animal models in research, and this is intriguing, but with tempering with a little caution.
[+] [-] polskibus|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] foxhedgehog|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ENGNR|10 years ago|reply
The anti-vaxers are going to have a field day with all this gray area to sow misinformation into.
[+] [-] yuhong|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] nunodonato|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] sharjeel|10 years ago|reply
"In a [stunning|amazing] discovery that overturns [years|decades|centuries] of [textbook teaching|beliefs|research] [researchers|scientists] at the <XYZ Lab> have discovered that the <PQR premise> holds false."
[+] [-] unknown|10 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] nanofortnight|10 years ago|reply
However, there been work in injecting radioimmunoagent tracers into lymphatics especially in the case of melanomas. The likely reason why these haven't before detected these meningeal lymphatic vessels is likely because: (1) We don't bother imaging the brain because "the brain doesn't have lymphatics" and (2) tracers generally flow with the direction of fluid and the direction of lympth from the CNS is likely efferent rather than afferent.
Furthermore it is difficult these days to do such experiments especially on live subjects "just because".
Hindsight is 20/20.
[+] [-] senorito|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ChristianMarks|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ejstronge|10 years ago|reply
I'm not sure who's self-promoting; this is a news article about a big discovery.
> But I would caution some skepticism, especially when the discoverer trumpets the extraordinary significance of the discovery.
The linked article is from a news organization.
Further, the data for the article are published in a high-profile journal; these are fairly credible findings.
[+] [-] aurora72|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] marincounty|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] roywiggins|10 years ago|reply
You can ascribe God to dark matter and placebo effects, but you just have a God of the Gaps.
[+] [-] lobster_johnson|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] gwern|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dzhiurgis|10 years ago|reply
Does it mean that brain can control your immune system?
I don't think so. It looks like immune system protects your brain though. Also I am not medical scientist and it would be nice to hear others opinions.
[+] [-] anigbrowl|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tunesmith|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Bjartr|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] moey|10 years ago|reply
I find your comment offending.