Beautifully done. Break down the norms of having the fans shouting at a muddied "them," and possibly start some good long-lasting friendships. I also think that Recife's idea of having mothers of troublemakers, as was linked to [1] is also a pretty clever way of keeping things from getting out of hand. It is rather heartening to see new ways of enforcing civility that aren't based around the use of force.
Oh dear I can't see this ending well most country's teams that have "ultras" and high levels of violence - there is an underlying political and in some cases religious tradition gong back in some cases 100's of years.
As a brazilian citizen, I can clarify the hidden reality in this article.
Gremio (Blue Team) and Internacional (Red Team) are teams from the most rich and evolved region of Brazil. The people of the south descend from germans and italians. They love those soccer teams and the culture is grow up with their "rivals"... brothers, cousins, etc, cheering for different teams. It was possible due to cultural reasons, not due to an "experiment".
In Sao Paulo, Southeast region, the culture is not like that, and the favelas and poor neighborhoods have their own criminal factions associated with "organised fan clubs".
Its incentivized, the fans from different teams can't mix up in any place, metros, streets, stadiums... We see deaths everyday, people pushing rivals from metro's windows (causing their deaths)
You can't put people of Palmeiras, Sao Paulo, Corinthias (the worst case) together.
I'm sorry, but your comment is misleading and spread some things that are not true at all.
The only factor on the match between Gremio and Internacional was the "gaucho pride", "we'll set an example for the rest of the country". They are nationalists and the marketing guy played well with that. Remember the chorus on their state anthem: "Serve our achievements as example for the whole Earth".
About Sao Paulo clubs, you said about Corinthians as "the worst case", which is far from the truth. Organized supporters from Palmeiras and Sao Paulo are way more violent, their fan clubes presidents were arrested several times, most of them accused by murder, even during carnival.
So please, if we want to help non brazilians to understand our reality, we got do it with facts.
Brilliant! Funny enough, that's the teams from my hometown. Had no idea they were doing this.
I haven't gone to a match since I was a kid, but remember the constant fights. These are the two main teams in that state, which made rivalry more intense. More than winning, you just wanted for your rivals to lose.
In Australia this (fans of different teams sitting with each other instead of separate) has been normal for AFL (Australian Football League) matches since forever. It creates an atmosphere of friendly rivalry and discussion amongst people sitting near each other instead of animosity. You commonly get some quite funny and friendly banter going on between rival supporters.
Pretty normal for UK Rugby too. I've been the only away supporter sat in the middle of several hundred home supporters without incident (apart from some gentle mockery as we meekly capitulated.)
One of the reasons why this would work is that you'd need to befriend a rival spectator before you enter the arena for the match just to get entry inside the stadium. Spending some time with a rival spectator would make one realize that even the rival team's supporters are football fans too at the end of the day. Great initiative !
This has been working for years in Rugby. The next World Cup won't be segregated either [1].
It makes for a much friendlier environment. Being able to banter with the opposing supporters prevents frustration, and I'm sure is fairly self regulating.
Complete opinion, but throwing abuse at the other side is far more likely to reach fever pitch(..) when everyone around you is shouting the same way. If half of those around you are shouting back that, no, it's you that's the idiot, then it'll come to a natural head far quicker and less violently.
As someone who doesn't follow sports, or anything that I'm purely a nonparticipant in, it baffles me how much people can care about stuff like this, especially enough to injure another human being. It's a crazy thing that it does to the human mind.
"Assembled in a crowd, people lose their powers of reasoning and their capacity for moral choice. Their suggestibility is increased to the point where they cease to have any judgment or will of their own. They become very excitable, they lose all sense of individual or collective responsibility, they are subject to sudden accesses of rage, enthusiasm and panic. In a word, a man in a crowd behaves as though he had swallowed a large dose of some powerful intoxicant. He is a victim of what I have called 'herd-poisoning.'"[1]
I happen to have attended this game and both the article and the video ad are not only misleading but also untruthful. Basically, there was just a small sector (< 10%) of the stadium where fans from both clubs were side by side.
Also, no one was forced to sit next to rivals as they are claiming. Fans of the away team had to be invited by a supporter of the home team in order to join the mixed sector.
Although it was a great initiative, they are trying to make it seem way bigger than it really was.
Will this really work long-term, or is it a short-term disruption? I know that in the NFL (American Football), fans are always integrated, but may become very violent. This is particularly true when there are rivalries of teams in close geographic distance allowing large numbers of fans from both teams to be in attendance. For example, games between the Philadelphia Eagles and NY Giants may be particularly dangerous.
If anything college football is worse. Rivalries there run deep, nearly as long as gridiron football has been played in many cases, and often come with family ties.
Combine that with its popularity in the south and the combination of honor culture and largely being dumbasses and theres almost always some fights before/during/after a big rivalry game in the ares where a visiting fan is close to or surrounded by the home team.
The interesting thing is that in Japan, for baseball, they forcibly separate the home fans and the visitor fans into separate areas. And the cheering is relegated so each side has the opportunity to cheer (while they politely stay quite when it's the other side's turn).
Just like the best way to promote integration of immigrants to have them live among "natives" and not put them in ghettos. Same principle at work, make them realize that they are not so different and they should both respect each other's.
> In soccer-obsessed Brazil, going to a match means a chance to see some of the best players in the world—and face the possibility of getting beaten up or even killed.
To say nothing of the sweeping stereotypes here there's also a glaring inaccuracy. Sorry, but by most definitions of 'best players in the world' this is simply false, sadly.
Brazil is perhaps the best example of a country that consistently produces world-class players yet struggles to keep them playing in their domestic league. The best players mostly all go to European clubs.
As a football (soccer) fan myself, this is one of the things I hate about the hyperbolic media; not withstanding the blatant ignorance of not knowing that none of the top players play in the Brazilian league. Possibility of being beaten or being killed? Gimme a break. Sure there is the occasional riot, hooliganism etc. but you're more likely to die or get injured in a car accident than at a stadium.
I'm not belittling the fact that these things happen, it's just the hyperbole that I'm amazed at. I don't see the equivalent reaction when there is trouble in the inner cities, which in essence is same on principle.
Don't know why this is downvoted, it's absolutely true and one major symptom of the problems with Brazilian football today.
Except for Santos clinging on to Neymar for a couple years after his talent was widely known, I can't think of many great players who spent a significant amount of time in Brazil at their peak.
Why are soccer riots even a thing? Soccer leads the world in fan tomfoolery. Of course I guess after spending 90 minutes and having a game end with a 1-1 tie, I'd riot too.
Because it's the classic definition of a "hack", it's a clever solution to an ugly problem. Not everything on HN has to be about javascript frameworks or making millions on startups. It's called "hacker news" not "san francisco tech startup echo chamber news".
[+] [-] Sanddancer|10 years ago|reply
[1] http://www.smh.com.au/sport/soccer/brazilian-soccer-club-dep...
[+] [-] walshemj|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pnevmatico|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] tiagotalbuquerq|10 years ago|reply
Gremio (Blue Team) and Internacional (Red Team) are teams from the most rich and evolved region of Brazil. The people of the south descend from germans and italians. They love those soccer teams and the culture is grow up with their "rivals"... brothers, cousins, etc, cheering for different teams. It was possible due to cultural reasons, not due to an "experiment".
In Sao Paulo, Southeast region, the culture is not like that, and the favelas and poor neighborhoods have their own criminal factions associated with "organised fan clubs".
Its incentivized, the fans from different teams can't mix up in any place, metros, streets, stadiums... We see deaths everyday, people pushing rivals from metro's windows (causing their deaths)
You can't put people of Palmeiras, Sao Paulo, Corinthias (the worst case) together.
[+] [-] PauloManrique|10 years ago|reply
The only factor on the match between Gremio and Internacional was the "gaucho pride", "we'll set an example for the rest of the country". They are nationalists and the marketing guy played well with that. Remember the chorus on their state anthem: "Serve our achievements as example for the whole Earth".
About Sao Paulo clubs, you said about Corinthians as "the worst case", which is far from the truth. Organized supporters from Palmeiras and Sao Paulo are way more violent, their fan clubes presidents were arrested several times, most of them accused by murder, even during carnival.
So please, if we want to help non brazilians to understand our reality, we got do it with facts.
[+] [-] personlurking|10 years ago|reply
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2959929/Brazilian-fo...
[+] [-] guiambros|10 years ago|reply
I haven't gone to a match since I was a kid, but remember the constant fights. These are the two main teams in that state, which made rivalry more intense. More than winning, you just wanted for your rivals to lose.
[+] [-] mickgardner|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] zimpenfish|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] leeuwnhawk|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] _puk|10 years ago|reply
It makes for a much friendlier environment. Being able to banter with the opposing supporters prevents frustration, and I'm sure is fairly self regulating.
Complete opinion, but throwing abuse at the other side is far more likely to reach fever pitch(..) when everyone around you is shouting the same way. If half of those around you are shouting back that, no, it's you that's the idiot, then it'll come to a natural head far quicker and less violently.
[1] http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/may/06/fans-not-segreg...
[+] [-] great_kraken|10 years ago|reply
As someone who doesn't follow sports, or anything that I'm purely a nonparticipant in, it baffles me how much people can care about stuff like this, especially enough to injure another human being. It's a crazy thing that it does to the human mind.
[+] [-] thret|10 years ago|reply
[1] http://reasontostand.org/archives/2011/01/19/aldous-huxley-o...
Also, for historical interest the blue-green riots in Rome: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nika_riots
[+] [-] pjc50|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bechampion|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ape4|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] BasDirks|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fkurkowski|10 years ago|reply
Also, no one was forced to sit next to rivals as they are claiming. Fans of the away team had to be invited by a supporter of the home team in order to join the mixed sector.
Although it was a great initiative, they are trying to make it seem way bigger than it really was.
[+] [-] ewindisch|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ryen|10 years ago|reply
Sure, but at a much smaller rate and size of mob. Usually its just a few drunk idiots.
[+] [-] dpeck|10 years ago|reply
Combine that with its popularity in the south and the combination of honor culture and largely being dumbasses and theres almost always some fights before/during/after a big rivalry game in the ares where a visiting fan is close to or surrounded by the home team.
That said, its nothing like soccer riots.
[+] [-] mauricemir|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] trequartista|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] havill|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ekianjo|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|10 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] serve_yay|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] diego_moita|10 years ago|reply
Porto Alegre has 2 big teams, fierce rivals. The Internacional dresses in red, the Grêmio dresses in light blue.
[+] [-] davnicwil|10 years ago|reply
> In soccer-obsessed Brazil, going to a match means a chance to see some of the best players in the world—and face the possibility of getting beaten up or even killed.
To say nothing of the sweeping stereotypes here there's also a glaring inaccuracy. Sorry, but by most definitions of 'best players in the world' this is simply false, sadly.
Brazil is perhaps the best example of a country that consistently produces world-class players yet struggles to keep them playing in their domestic league. The best players mostly all go to European clubs.
[+] [-] ashwinaj|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] TillE|10 years ago|reply
Except for Santos clinging on to Neymar for a couple years after his talent was widely known, I can't think of many great players who spent a significant amount of time in Brazil at their peak.
[+] [-] makeitsuckless|10 years ago|reply
Not surprised football haters and Americans (where active support has been removed from the equation anywhere but in college football) here love this.
[+] [-] briandear|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] walshemj|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jhhn|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wnevets|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] capedcanaveral|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] msandford|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 91bananas|10 years ago|reply
https://stallman.org/articles/on-hacking.html
[+] [-] pvg|10 years ago|reply