The espionage is perhaps most bothering of all. In some ways, most of us can rationalize spying for the purposes of security (albeit a dangerous and perhaps short-sighted rationalization) but when it's done with the intention of economic advantage it clearly undermines our entire financial system and the best features of capitalism: which is to reward those who innovate; delivering the market with higher quality products at lower pricing over time.
Because now you have a 'special access' class of the economy that can subvert this innovation/value mechanism with stolen data. Add corrupt politicians, easily exploited loopholes, biased media channels, and a docile public - and it's easy to see how this special access class can twist, distort (and ultimately destroy) the system.
One can only imagine what humanity could achieve without these parasites infecting our lives and businesses.
The vast majority of interventions by both the US miliary and the CIA since WWII have been economically motivated, that is, designed to protect US company interests abroad. Those that weren't were politically motivated, that is, designed to protect US political interests domestically.
All capable states spy on each other. Enemy states spy on govt secrets and friendly states focus on industrial espionage. France, Israel and China are some of the most vigorous at industrial espionage. Like it or not that's how the world operates and, unfortunately, we can't simply wish that away.
This is one of the great dangers of state sponsored industrial espionage and why governments should not engage it in outside of extreme circumstances.
>A second economic espionage order called “France: Economic Developments” shows that information was then shared with other U.S. agencies and secretaries, including the Secretary of Energy, the Secretary of Commerce, the Federal Reserve and the Secretary of Treasury. Eventually, this data could have been used to help sign export deals.
Nothing in this report directly shows that the US did or did not share this intelligence with US companies. I have not read the French articles yet.
I wonder how the US handles sharing economic intelligence with allies that have a very public record of state sponsored industrial espionage.
> clearly undermines our entire financial system and the best features of capitalism: which is to reward those who innovate
Let's not pretend that US spying on foreign companies is something new at all. It's been widely spread by other means for decades if not more. I would even say it's an integral part of doing business for larger companies, and they call it "intelligence" and they get it by whatever means they can. The NSA is just one of their tools.
I remember someone making a big point yesterday about why it's actually really expensive to manufacture in china. His argument was that China's theft of copyright is the biggest cost when your idea's get stolen and reproduced up the road.
* France is one of the most notoriously brazen state sponsors of industrial espionage, especially within the EU.
* This stuff is rampant between all the industrialized nations. You can find stories going back decades about Americans being evicted from embassies over industrial espionage. Somehow, we all seem to remain allies.
* Technically --- modulo the "getting caught" part --- this is what NSA is supposed to be doing. That's a positive assertion, not a normative one!
Curious how we never seem to see Russia as the focus of Wikileaks releases. They must just be really respectful of the civil liberties of citizens of the world.
> France is one of the most notoriously brazen state sponsors of industrial espionage, especially within the EU.
When France does it, it's bad. When the USA does it it is bad too.
If my country would do this - and it is very well possible they do - I'd be very much ashamed of this.
> This stuff is rampant between all the industrialized nations. You can find stories going back decades about Americans being evicted from embassies over industrial espionage.
Those stories are along the line of the article, not much of a counterargument there then.
> Technically --- modulo the "getting caught" part --- this is what NSA is supposed to be doing. That's a positive assertion, not a normative one!
This is true, but - and this will probably surprise you - the rest of the world (the people, not necessarily the governments / those in power) considers industrial spying to be a negative activity, and considers it a hostile act against those people.
The goodwill that a country builds up can easily be eradicated by activities such as these, especially when uncovered.
The only other countries that I'm aware of that use their intelligence services in such a blatantly offensive (both meanings of the word) manner are Israel and Russia.
And none of those - and definitely not France - have been caught spying on US politicians in their own offices.
'They do it too' is such a lame excuse anyway (especially when that is not objectively the case).
> * France is one of the most notoriously brazen state sponsors of industrial espionage, especially within the EU.
I'm not saying this is wrong, but you should back up such a statement with some real sources.
> * This stuff is rampant between all the industrialized nations. You can find stories going back decades about Americans being evicted from embassies over industrial espionage. Somehow, we all seem to remain allies.
So what?
> * Technically --- modulo the "getting caught" part --- this is what NSA is supposed to be doing. That's a positive assertion, not a normative one!
How so? According to Bruce Schneier NSA's mission is twofold: protecting the security of U.S. communications and eavesdropping on the communications of our enemies, where the enemies pretty much means Soviet, not other NATO countries. Are you saying this is not the twofold mission of NSA?
(Note that this doesn't mean there aren't "legitimate" reasons to spy on allies - but that's not what you are saying).
> Curious how we never seem to see Russia as the focus of Wikileaks releases. They must just be really respectful of the civil liberties of citizens of the world.
1) So what?
2) Maybe they just didn't get any leaks from them?
3) For everyone in the western world, the Russia is so obviously anti "civil liberties" there's not much to uncover. For people in the east, there's Radio Free Europe. You not seeing this makes me question the intention of your so called "truth-stating".
The general consensus seems to be not that the NSA is wrong for merely doing these things, but that the NSA is wrong for doing these things against specific corporations for other specific corporations' benefit, seemingly at the behest of those that would stand to profit.
You can't justify it via patriotism or service for country if the explicit purpose is to enrich a controlled, hand picked minority.
>They must just be really respectful of the civil liberties of citizens of the world.
The contents of Wikileaks archive is not solely a function of civil liberties violations. Someone has to get the information and get it to Wikileaks. I don't know how much international news you follow, but many strange and curious deaths occur to Russians who seem to defy the state. Most probably don't want to risk it (if they even have any real information to begin with).
What is your proof against France industrial espionage ?
The US cable about Berry Smutny ? His company was way less technologically advanced than the 2 majors French companies running for the Galileo bid, Astrium from the giant EADS and Thalès. His company was selected thanks to the masochism of the Europeans commission for competition against big companies and we can see where the Galileo project is with that choice.
Saying that France is the bigger state sponsor of industrial espionage is utterly ridiculous with countries such as China, Russia and the USA and is enormous budget for the NSA, as we can see with those cables. France is rarely involved in such cases. Europeans are too naive about economic espionage.
> Curious how we never seem to see Russia as the focus of Wikileaks releases.
I can't even comprehend what you're trying to imply here. Do you genuinely think that Wikileaks is friendly to Russia for some reason? If so, say it. Because that would be really bizarre and inexplicable.
I think assange admitted as much along the lines they have a target for the largest agent of badness, as they saw it. So, given they interpret the US to be the greater agent of spying/espionage and implied they'd like to level the playing field, it's little surprise we don't see much in regards to Russia and China, along with Iran or Sudan.
Personally I don't agree with their tack, but that is what I gather is their tack from their, assange's, statements.
French sources (former head of the French DGSE, of course you may question him) tell however that "we (in France) are light years behind the US in terms of offensive espionage, although we are pretty good at counterintelligence".
And I might be naïve but think that Russia had, and lost after 1991, its networks and spying capabilities. It probably takes some time to rebuild them.
Major news sources are acquired and politicked. Who is the good guy depends on what news your reading.
Say tomorrow the US intelligence agencies shut down any cyber capabilities would then China and Russia stop their hacking groups or increase their activities?
Interactions between states are struggles for power and the concept of fairness does not apply.
> Curious how we never seem to see Russia as the focus of Wikileaks releases. They must just be really respectful of the civil liberties of citizens of the world.
I agree. I've also actually found Russian statesmen and politics to be incredibly transparent. Far beyond anything the US has. So it's totally logical that Wikileaks doesn't focus on them.
I am a German SaaS developer. More and more customers are asking me for not using infrastracture services from US companies.
On the one hand this is bad for me because google and microsoft have top products for my needs. On the other hand this means big opportunities because my customers are heavily searching for alternatives.
The trust in US IT companies was never so bad here. It can become a desaster for their european sales.
If only that led to a surge in usage of open source software in Europe, especially in government institutions, as well as for EU services and products that would need to fill the void.
I've already noticed a small increase in interest for using open source in EU governments, but it's still far too small and far less aggressive than I would like it to be. The adoption should be 10x faster than it is now, post-Snowden.
I wonder how much that has to do with CCC and general German culture. The only stories about European customers refusing to use US web infrastructure I hear come from Germany. I live next doors, in Poland, and here it seems like nobody cares.
It would be very interesting to know, technically, what are the interception means. Does it target phone calls, emails, internal spys, other things?
From other documents, it appears that the NSA has the ability to listen to phone calls on French networks. As most of the "targets" use Orange, the historical telecom operator, and that collaboration from Orange with the NSA is unlikely, it would mean that their IT systems are owned.
Regarding email, most French companies use Microsoft products both as servers (Exchange) and client (Outlook). Are there exploitable vulnerabilities in these products?
As we are in that space, we have to push hard, for people even to consider French-written, open source communication software such as ours (https://github.com/MLstate/PEPS).
If the NSA commits an act of industrial espionage, who gets access to that information?
Ostenscibly, this information would be valuable to American companies, but I don't recall there being any federal registration where I can sign up to receive such information. Certainly, some company is getting access to this information, but because this process isn't transparent, the other problem with such espionage is that it leads to greater corruption. Basically, someone gets to pick and choose who receives this extremely valuable information in private industry with no external oversight.
Does anyone know of a modern, comprehensive list of such industrial espionage events from a trustworthy source?
One of my go-tos was the European Parliament's report on the ECHELON interception system[1] as it gives an idea of how long this has been happening (the report was published 2001), but it's so very old now.
Under "Published Cases", the European Parliament list industrial espionage attacks on a variety of companies and government agencies. Some you might consider reasonable (exposing bribery in the bidding process then nudging the contract to a US firm) but others are incredibly dodgy (forwarding technical details about a wind generator to a US firm so they could patent it first).
One of the things that annoys me about these revelations is that, particularly in regards to the espionage aspect of things, essentially private businesses are de facto in some way gaining from either increased inside knowledge or increased protection from the likes of the NSA or French equivalents etc...
However, if private people, journalists or NGOs are targeted by foreign governments (or corporate intelligence) they are never told about it (probably leading to the death of sources etc) - and if they conducted hacking/espionage activities for the greater public good (for example to expose information about people wanted for genocide in Darfur, those who murder journalists in Russia, diamond corruption in the DRC) they would go to jail...What a sad world we live in that we would rather prioritise protecting clean engine patents and airplane deals instead of human life :(
Isn't the real problem with "economic espionage" who the NSA gives the info to? By picking and choosing who gets the info, the NSA/executive branch isn't really letting the free market make the choices any longer. There could be political implications, giving info to companies that do campaign contributions, or lobby more expensively.
Espionage is standard practice in the world today. So are isolated assassinations, torture, coups, and state sponsorship of terrorism. The United States participated in all of the above.
Domestic citizens in America feel as though their government is 'clean' or 'noble'. This is a myth propelled by Public Affairs, PR and supported by the media (at worst, the media will say, the US made blunders and mistakes).
The United States is in the boxing ring with every other nation. It's a heavyweight.
What's happening right now is that the United States is 'short of breath'. It's overextended. Long term plans haven't worked out. The US is finding itself reacting to other nations rather than keeping them on their toes. It's dropped in its financial, economic, and technological development capabilities. It is having trouble facing challenges brought by new technology. It is losing the support of its closest allies.
It's a difficult time for America. Not everything is decided. It may yet remain a unipolar power.
But to do so it will need to get in and scrap.
The hawks want to scrap. They want to fight for continued supremacy. There are no doves that are serious contenders for president and I don't know if the system would allow a dove to be elected, even if the candidate had majority support from citizens.
In this turbulence, we have to think about what we can do as citizens. The clearest answer is to get quality information and to be informed. Taking the Snowden and Wikileaks documents as a list of things that the US does that are bad is not the best way to read them.
The best way to read these and other documents is to better understand dog-eat-dog realpolitiks of global power games.
No matter whether you want to support the United States in this moment or demand it change course one thing is certain: you must be as educated as possible about the tradeoffs, the current investments, the challenges and the nature of the Great Game. Read across different sources of information and focus not only on domestic news but good foreign policy sources. Talk with neighbors and friends about your and American ideals and how and whether to negotiate and achieve those goals in a world that is 96% non-American.
Wikileaks is a great place to start. The reason for this is not that they have 'the dirt'. It's because they have primary documents. When you read, prioritize information that isn't summarized or filtered.
Muckrack is another great source. Washington Thinktanks another.
A state intelligence agency found spying on foreign private cos. in critical sectors like nuclear power plants, planes, high speed trains, telecommunications and energy, in order to pass on the intelligence and aid its own domestic firms.
For a minute I almost thought we were talking about China.
I've thought for a long time that the most likely corruption we'd see around the surveillance issue is industrial espionage. It'd be a great way for the NSA to give an unfair advantage to state-linked American corporations, or for independent actors within NSA to line their pockets.
A related issue would be insider trading. I mean, with a source of data like that you could basically 'jackpot' stock markets and extract arbitrary amounts of money from the global economy. Members of Congress are immune from prosecution for insider trading.
Is anybody even remotely surprised? even slightly? Any country with sufficient power will spy on any and all people, countries and entities it can. If they don't either something bad will happen (and the public will be demanding to know why someone didn't do anything about it) or they will be out-maneuvered by countries that do.
Information is power and all types of information add to a map of what's going on and with who. Companies/Corporations are modern day dukes, robber barons and tyrants, and people with power and influence have always been spied upon.
Corporate espionage is like tax havens. You can't expect one country to stop it, everyone needs to agree to stop doing it at the same time. Otherwise the first to stop will be at a disadvantage.
[+] [-] mrschwabe|10 years ago|reply
Because now you have a 'special access' class of the economy that can subvert this innovation/value mechanism with stolen data. Add corrupt politicians, easily exploited loopholes, biased media channels, and a docile public - and it's easy to see how this special access class can twist, distort (and ultimately destroy) the system.
One can only imagine what humanity could achieve without these parasites infecting our lives and businesses.
[+] [-] mercurialshark|10 years ago|reply
R. James Woolsey, a Washington lawyer and a former Director of Central Intelligence.
http://cryptome.org/echelon-cia2.htm?utm_medium=referral&utm...
[+] [-] dools|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mc32|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] EthanHeilman|10 years ago|reply
>A second economic espionage order called “France: Economic Developments” shows that information was then shared with other U.S. agencies and secretaries, including the Secretary of Energy, the Secretary of Commerce, the Federal Reserve and the Secretary of Treasury. Eventually, this data could have been used to help sign export deals.
Nothing in this report directly shows that the US did or did not share this intelligence with US companies. I have not read the French articles yet.
I wonder how the US handles sharing economic intelligence with allies that have a very public record of state sponsored industrial espionage.
[+] [-] ekianjo|10 years ago|reply
Let's not pretend that US spying on foreign companies is something new at all. It's been widely spread by other means for decades if not more. I would even say it's an integral part of doing business for larger companies, and they call it "intelligence" and they get it by whatever means they can. The NSA is just one of their tools.
[+] [-] shard972|10 years ago|reply
Not sure what his argument is going to be now....
[+] [-] Yhippa|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] god_bless_texas|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ravepadinc|10 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] unknown|10 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] tptacek|10 years ago|reply
* France is one of the most notoriously brazen state sponsors of industrial espionage, especially within the EU.
* This stuff is rampant between all the industrialized nations. You can find stories going back decades about Americans being evicted from embassies over industrial espionage. Somehow, we all seem to remain allies.
* Technically --- modulo the "getting caught" part --- this is what NSA is supposed to be doing. That's a positive assertion, not a normative one!
Curious how we never seem to see Russia as the focus of Wikileaks releases. They must just be really respectful of the civil liberties of citizens of the world.
[+] [-] jacquesm|10 years ago|reply
When France does it, it's bad. When the USA does it it is bad too.
If my country would do this - and it is very well possible they do - I'd be very much ashamed of this.
> This stuff is rampant between all the industrialized nations. You can find stories going back decades about Americans being evicted from embassies over industrial espionage.
Those stories are along the line of the article, not much of a counterargument there then.
> Technically --- modulo the "getting caught" part --- this is what NSA is supposed to be doing. That's a positive assertion, not a normative one!
This is true, but - and this will probably surprise you - the rest of the world (the people, not necessarily the governments / those in power) considers industrial spying to be a negative activity, and considers it a hostile act against those people.
The goodwill that a country builds up can easily be eradicated by activities such as these, especially when uncovered.
The only other countries that I'm aware of that use their intelligence services in such a blatantly offensive (both meanings of the word) manner are Israel and Russia.
And none of those - and definitely not France - have been caught spying on US politicians in their own offices.
'They do it too' is such a lame excuse anyway (especially when that is not objectively the case).
[+] [-] oskarth|10 years ago|reply
I'm not saying this is wrong, but you should back up such a statement with some real sources.
> * This stuff is rampant between all the industrialized nations. You can find stories going back decades about Americans being evicted from embassies over industrial espionage. Somehow, we all seem to remain allies.
So what?
> * Technically --- modulo the "getting caught" part --- this is what NSA is supposed to be doing. That's a positive assertion, not a normative one!
How so? According to Bruce Schneier NSA's mission is twofold: protecting the security of U.S. communications and eavesdropping on the communications of our enemies, where the enemies pretty much means Soviet, not other NATO countries. Are you saying this is not the twofold mission of NSA?
(Note that this doesn't mean there aren't "legitimate" reasons to spy on allies - but that's not what you are saying).
> Curious how we never seem to see Russia as the focus of Wikileaks releases. They must just be really respectful of the civil liberties of citizens of the world.
1) So what?
2) Maybe they just didn't get any leaks from them?
3) For everyone in the western world, the Russia is so obviously anti "civil liberties" there's not much to uncover. For people in the east, there's Radio Free Europe. You not seeing this makes me question the intention of your so called "truth-stating".
[+] [-] pdeuchler|10 years ago|reply
You can't justify it via patriotism or service for country if the explicit purpose is to enrich a controlled, hand picked minority.
[+] [-] jsprogrammer|10 years ago|reply
The contents of Wikileaks archive is not solely a function of civil liberties violations. Someone has to get the information and get it to Wikileaks. I don't know how much international news you follow, but many strange and curious deaths occur to Russians who seem to defy the state. Most probably don't want to risk it (if they even have any real information to begin with).
[+] [-] hokkos|10 years ago|reply
http://lexpansion.lexpress.fr/entreprises/la-france-est-elle...
[+] [-] TillE|10 years ago|reply
I can't even comprehend what you're trying to imply here. Do you genuinely think that Wikileaks is friendly to Russia for some reason? If so, say it. Because that would be really bizarre and inexplicable.
[+] [-] foobarqux|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mc32|10 years ago|reply
Personally I don't agree with their tack, but that is what I gather is their tack from their, assange's, statements.
[+] [-] hbbio|10 years ago|reply
And I might be naïve but think that Russia had, and lost after 1991, its networks and spying capabilities. It probably takes some time to rebuild them.
[+] [-] solotronics|10 years ago|reply
Say tomorrow the US intelligence agencies shut down any cyber capabilities would then China and Russia stop their hacking groups or increase their activities?
Interactions between states are struggles for power and the concept of fairness does not apply.
[+] [-] duaneb|10 years ago|reply
I don't think anyone knows what the purpose of the NSA is. To have more secrets than everyone else?
[+] [-] beedogs|10 years ago|reply
It's really difficult to see any logic in your recent comment history, frankly.
[+] [-] unknown|10 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] zobzu|10 years ago|reply
Maybe for the last snarky remark on russia ;)
[+] [-] pnathan|10 years ago|reply
I agree. I've also actually found Russian statesmen and politics to be incredibly transparent. Far beyond anything the US has. So it's totally logical that Wikileaks doesn't focus on them.
[+] [-] doczoidberg|10 years ago|reply
On the one hand this is bad for me because google and microsoft have top products for my needs. On the other hand this means big opportunities because my customers are heavily searching for alternatives.
The trust in US IT companies was never so bad here. It can become a desaster for their european sales.
[+] [-] higherpurpose|10 years ago|reply
I've already noticed a small increase in interest for using open source in EU governments, but it's still far too small and far less aggressive than I would like it to be. The adoption should be 10x faster than it is now, post-Snowden.
[+] [-] TeMPOraL|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] superuser2|10 years ago|reply
It might help "send a message," but it certainly won't make you safer.
[+] [-] hbbio|10 years ago|reply
From other documents, it appears that the NSA has the ability to listen to phone calls on French networks. As most of the "targets" use Orange, the historical telecom operator, and that collaboration from Orange with the NSA is unlikely, it would mean that their IT systems are owned.
Regarding email, most French companies use Microsoft products both as servers (Exchange) and client (Outlook). Are there exploitable vulnerabilities in these products? As we are in that space, we have to push hard, for people even to consider French-written, open source communication software such as ours (https://github.com/MLstate/PEPS).
[+] [-] kxyvr|10 years ago|reply
Ostenscibly, this information would be valuable to American companies, but I don't recall there being any federal registration where I can sign up to receive such information. Certainly, some company is getting access to this information, but because this process isn't transparent, the other problem with such espionage is that it leads to greater corruption. Basically, someone gets to pick and choose who receives this extremely valuable information in private industry with no external oversight.
[+] [-] Smerity|10 years ago|reply
One of my go-tos was the European Parliament's report on the ECHELON interception system[1] as it gives an idea of how long this has been happening (the report was published 2001), but it's so very old now.
Under "Published Cases", the European Parliament list industrial espionage attacks on a variety of companies and government agencies. Some you might consider reasonable (exposing bribery in the bidding process then nudging the contract to a US firm) but others are incredibly dodgy (forwarding technical details about a wind generator to a US firm so they could patent it first).
[1]: http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?pubRef=-//EP//...
[+] [-] secfirstmd|10 years ago|reply
However, if private people, journalists or NGOs are targeted by foreign governments (or corporate intelligence) they are never told about it (probably leading to the death of sources etc) - and if they conducted hacking/espionage activities for the greater public good (for example to expose information about people wanted for genocide in Darfur, those who murder journalists in Russia, diamond corruption in the DRC) they would go to jail...What a sad world we live in that we would rather prioritise protecting clean engine patents and airplane deals instead of human life :(
[+] [-] bediger4000|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] themeek|10 years ago|reply
Domestic citizens in America feel as though their government is 'clean' or 'noble'. This is a myth propelled by Public Affairs, PR and supported by the media (at worst, the media will say, the US made blunders and mistakes).
The United States is in the boxing ring with every other nation. It's a heavyweight.
What's happening right now is that the United States is 'short of breath'. It's overextended. Long term plans haven't worked out. The US is finding itself reacting to other nations rather than keeping them on their toes. It's dropped in its financial, economic, and technological development capabilities. It is having trouble facing challenges brought by new technology. It is losing the support of its closest allies.
It's a difficult time for America. Not everything is decided. It may yet remain a unipolar power.
But to do so it will need to get in and scrap.
The hawks want to scrap. They want to fight for continued supremacy. There are no doves that are serious contenders for president and I don't know if the system would allow a dove to be elected, even if the candidate had majority support from citizens.
In this turbulence, we have to think about what we can do as citizens. The clearest answer is to get quality information and to be informed. Taking the Snowden and Wikileaks documents as a list of things that the US does that are bad is not the best way to read them.
The best way to read these and other documents is to better understand dog-eat-dog realpolitiks of global power games.
No matter whether you want to support the United States in this moment or demand it change course one thing is certain: you must be as educated as possible about the tradeoffs, the current investments, the challenges and the nature of the Great Game. Read across different sources of information and focus not only on domestic news but good foreign policy sources. Talk with neighbors and friends about your and American ideals and how and whether to negotiate and achieve those goals in a world that is 96% non-American.
Wikileaks is a great place to start. The reason for this is not that they have 'the dirt'. It's because they have primary documents. When you read, prioritize information that isn't summarized or filtered.
Muckrack is another great source. Washington Thinktanks another.
[+] [-] r0h1n|10 years ago|reply
For a minute I almost thought we were talking about China.
[+] [-] 5kyn3t|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] api|10 years ago|reply
A related issue would be insider trading. I mean, with a source of data like that you could basically 'jackpot' stock markets and extract arbitrary amounts of money from the global economy. Members of Congress are immune from prosecution for insider trading.
[+] [-] fixxer|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ghaydarov|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jimjimjim|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] necrodawg|10 years ago|reply
And a lot of countries do this.
[+] [-] darkhorn|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] minusSeven|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ExpiredLink|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] coldcode|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] qnaal|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] minusSeven|10 years ago|reply