Lots of hackers think that good work wins, but it's good work marketed well wins, and it turns out that people are incredibly biased towards high-class men, and a name like "James Chartrand" is a prime example.
I challenge her to see the results when she chooses a name like "Tyrone Jackson".
On a similar line, since we don't know her real name then it could just very well be there's some other bias against her name besides the gender issue.
It's not unheard of for names that are associated with a specific ethnicity having an effect. I have a name that's almost impossible to pronounce for English speakers, and I've always noted the difference between when I use my real name or when I use the anglicized version.
Potential clients are going to go with the option that's easier, and yes that might even include things such as: the name that's easier to pronounce, the gender the client can identify with the easiest or the name that clicks subconsciously with them.
These aren't just interesting bits, they're part of the image we portray. Actors have known this for quite some time and it's common to pick stage names.
Funny you should mention that. I'm Irish and white but my name (Eddy Robinson) 'sounds black' to a lot of people, and I wasn't aware of this until someone I was doing business with expressed surprise on our first meeting. I did a quick straw poll of acquaintances who I'd had first contact via email or seeing my resume and they confirmed this assumption. I can't say it's ever affected me personally though I wonder sometimes if it's a factor when I bid on a job and don't get a reply.
When I first visited the US, I was really surprised at the adverts in newspapers for realtors (estate agents). They all had photos of the realtors faces?! Do people choose realtors based on their photo? How would that make any sense at all. Perhaps it's just some custom that's been passed down, but it really freaked me out.
Could you use some other picture of a warm fuzzy respectable person and say "Oh yeah James Hilby-Smithe is currently unavailable, I'm his associate I can help you"? Would that be legal. I wonder if any of them do this already.
An empirical study concluded that "black" names had no effect; it was background. On the other hand, it's only people with a certain kind of background that name their kid "Shaniqua" (middle class blacks usually adopt generic North American naming standards). So I'm not sure if that contradicts your point.
I've recently given a lot of thought to shifting from "Joey" to "Joseph" as my day-to-day name. I'm reluctant, but if you're theory is right, it seems like it would command more respect.
Something about this strikes me as either shady, or engineered to make a point. I'm probably paranoid, of course.
Looking at the about page, "Men with Pens" was founded by the article's author. The sit is deliberately and heavily grounded in male stereotypes. Plus, looking at the bio for one of the other authors:
"Taylor Lindstrom, is a twenty-something copywriter and journalist from Boulder, CO. She’s the team’s rogue woman who wowed us until our desire for her talents exceeded our desire for a good ol’ boys club."
Maybe that's just a tongue-in-cheek reference to the founder's real gender. Perhaps the heavy masculinity of the Men With Pens site was designed to test/prove the theory. Not enough information to make a real decision.
It just seems that there's more to this than meets the eye. I'd love to see some statistics on the comparative success of her publishing names.
My assumption was that Men With Pens was founded well after she realized her male pen name was outperforming her real name. I didn't think she made Men With Pens hyper-masculine as a test, but just as an extension of using a male pen name.
>Maybe that's just a tongue-in-cheek reference to the founder's real gender. Perhaps the heavy masculinity of the Men With Pens site was designed to test/prove the theory.
It does seem to be a hyper-masculine design parody of men's magazines. I mean come on, the suede header background, hollow point bullet, chunky metalised writing, welder at the top of the page, "guns for hire" ... seriously? This is for real?
Presumably "Taylor Lindstrom" in their about us is a bloke.
Also, OT: design is completely broken with js off, right menu is broken with it on too (ff3.6, Kubuntu).
It's a nice story, but it's hard to extrapolate from just one anecdote.
First of all, she undoubtedly became more experienced at her job as she got older. She does claim that she kept looking for work as both names, but we know that there's a huge element of randomness to internet success. Often the same exact article gets posted to reddit several times before one of them takes off, for instance. Also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_cascade
There are plenty of examples of successful female bloggers, so I'm not sure that her personal example really means anything. This really requires experimental data.
tl:dr The success of James could easily be attributed to an increase in experience and completely random elements.
Gosh, the general point was quite interesting, but I have such a hard time reading the "Emotional Headline -> Witty hook -> Two more paragraphs -> emotional headline -> witty hook -> two more paragraphs" style of writing. Yeah, I know it makes people read your copy, but I like to the point writing more than the wandering around building a narrative that sucks you in, leaving you breathless with anticipation and excited for more of whatever they're selling...
Sales copy just adds so much noise to the points. I get why they do it, but it's really a fight to get through it for me even if I think there's going to be valuable points in there.
This made me think of the "Libertarian Girl" hoax, in which an unsuccessful male libertarian blogger got a lot of traffic by claiming to be a pretty girl.
I guess the people who hired the writer of the article aren't libertarians.
This effect definitely works on IRC. Create a female-sounding Twitter account with some pretty girl in the picture, use that nick on IRC, get instant help. (You need to make sure the name is actually girlish sounding, of course. Otherwise nobody will bother to check you out.)
That's also the story behind the name of "Blondie24", the AI checkers bot. They started with some handle like Jedi123, but no one would play them online...
Name has always made a difference. Do you know how many Indian programmers have American sounding pen names on freelance websites? They'll always get more work and higher per hour rates with an American sounding name than an Indian sounding name.
And yet apparently we haven’t gotten past those 19th century stigmas.
Bad assumption. She's got an interesting story, but doesn't go anywhere interesting and seems to just blame it all on the vague idea of antique male chauvinism.
Among orchestral musicians, which is not the same field but at least similar to writing as part of 'the arts', blind auditions, in which a curtain conceals the identity (and gender etc.) of an aspiring performer from judges, have made a ~30% contribution to improvements in gender equity among job seekers. Rigorous paper: http://www.faculty.diversity.ucla.edu/search/searchtoolkit/d...
> Truth be told, if just a name and perception of gender creates such different levels of respect and income for a person, it says a lot more about the world than it does about me.
People who succeeded and think that they own it all to their skill, persistence and diligence should read this.
Being lucky on some trivial things like name or gender may have affected your success more than you think.
I wonder how Indian names are perceived in technology. There are a lot of examples of brilliant Indian computer scientists and entrepreneurs, but I suspect that Indian names are still viewed unfavorably in Silicon Valley. Everyone has experience with say, math profs with indecipherable accents, crappy Indian outsourcing firms, or the QA department that's entirely staffed with low-skill imports.
> I quickly learned not to mention I had kids. I quickly learned not to mention I worked from my kitchen table.
Maybe the false assumption was that she's a partnered dilettante (who might get bored and not deliver your work) rather than a professional (who takes your work seriously, in part because it's keeping the lights on), along with the assumption that mothers are more obsessed with parenting.
On that note, anyone else think it was weird that she only talked about supporting her kids, as if she herself didn't eat?
I have a friend who works as a copywriter, and I have to say that it sounds like a shitty job. My friend talks excitedly about the pinnacle of copywriting being "direct mailing", which we all know as pre-email spamming. I think the appeal is that they get royalties on a per mailing basis.
Although, Anne Rice is on that list and her real name is apparently Howard Allen O'Brien, despite actually being female: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Rice
It's possible the pen name helped on her side too--she may have started writing more to her expectations of a male writer (different style, sentence structure, etc), which in turn might have sold better.
Non-gendered handles are a standard trick for women in hacker forums or channels.
I was once publicly upbraided for revealing someone's gender -- all the regulars knew, but she wanted to be incognito for the legions of net-geeks, lest she receive zillions of come-ons every time she posted anything.
"On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity."
I don't know - I think it is interesting. I would have thought that it would be easier for a woman to be successful writing on the internet. I guess I based that on 'sex sells'. It does seem that profiles on social sites with photos of pretty girls get more attention...
[+] [-] lsb|16 years ago|reply
Lots of hackers think that good work wins, but it's good work marketed well wins, and it turns out that people are incredibly biased towards high-class men, and a name like "James Chartrand" is a prime example.
I challenge her to see the results when she chooses a name like "Tyrone Jackson".
[+] [-] ebrenes|16 years ago|reply
It's not unheard of for names that are associated with a specific ethnicity having an effect. I have a name that's almost impossible to pronounce for English speakers, and I've always noted the difference between when I use my real name or when I use the anglicized version.
Potential clients are going to go with the option that's easier, and yes that might even include things such as: the name that's easier to pronounce, the gender the client can identify with the easiest or the name that clicks subconsciously with them.
These aren't just interesting bits, they're part of the image we portray. Actors have known this for quite some time and it's common to pick stage names.
[+] [-] anigbrowl|16 years ago|reply
This article made me think more about the possibilities if I had picked some place other than California to live when I came to the US: http://daisysdeadair.blogspot.com/2008/04/on-having-black-na...
[+] [-] axod|16 years ago|reply
When I first visited the US, I was really surprised at the adverts in newspapers for realtors (estate agents). They all had photos of the realtors faces?! Do people choose realtors based on their photo? How would that make any sense at all. Perhaps it's just some custom that's been passed down, but it really freaked me out.
Could you use some other picture of a warm fuzzy respectable person and say "Oh yeah James Hilby-Smithe is currently unavailable, I'm his associate I can help you"? Would that be legal. I wonder if any of them do this already.
[+] [-] neilk|16 years ago|reply
An empirical study concluded that "black" names had no effect; it was background. On the other hand, it's only people with a certain kind of background that name their kid "Shaniqua" (middle class blacks usually adopt generic North American naming standards). So I'm not sure if that contradicts your point.
[+] [-] boredguy8|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dlytle|16 years ago|reply
Looking at the about page, "Men with Pens" was founded by the article's author. The sit is deliberately and heavily grounded in male stereotypes. Plus, looking at the bio for one of the other authors: "Taylor Lindstrom, is a twenty-something copywriter and journalist from Boulder, CO. She’s the team’s rogue woman who wowed us until our desire for her talents exceeded our desire for a good ol’ boys club."
Maybe that's just a tongue-in-cheek reference to the founder's real gender. Perhaps the heavy masculinity of the Men With Pens site was designed to test/prove the theory. Not enough information to make a real decision.
It just seems that there's more to this than meets the eye. I'd love to see some statistics on the comparative success of her publishing names.
[+] [-] araneae|16 years ago|reply
Women can still be misogynists.
[+] [-] scott_s|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pbhjpbhj|16 years ago|reply
It does seem to be a hyper-masculine design parody of men's magazines. I mean come on, the suede header background, hollow point bullet, chunky metalised writing, welder at the top of the page, "guns for hire" ... seriously? This is for real?
Presumably "Taylor Lindstrom" in their about us is a bloke.
Also, OT: design is completely broken with js off, right menu is broken with it on too (ff3.6, Kubuntu).
[+] [-] araneae|16 years ago|reply
First of all, she undoubtedly became more experienced at her job as she got older. She does claim that she kept looking for work as both names, but we know that there's a huge element of randomness to internet success. Often the same exact article gets posted to reddit several times before one of them takes off, for instance. Also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_cascade
There are plenty of examples of successful female bloggers, so I'm not sure that her personal example really means anything. This really requires experimental data.
tl:dr The success of James could easily be attributed to an increase in experience and completely random elements.
[+] [-] wglb|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lionhearted|16 years ago|reply
Sales copy just adds so much noise to the points. I get why they do it, but it's really a fight to get through it for me even if I think there's going to be valuable points in there.
[+] [-] rsheridan6|16 years ago|reply
I guess the people who hired the writer of the article aren't libertarians.
[+] [-] jrockway|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] RK|16 years ago|reply
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blondie24
[+] [-] ankeshk|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Goladus|16 years ago|reply
And yet apparently we haven’t gotten past those 19th century stigmas.
Bad assumption. She's got an interesting story, but doesn't go anywhere interesting and seems to just blame it all on the vague idea of antique male chauvinism.
[+] [-] anigbrowl|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] neilk|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] scotty79|16 years ago|reply
People who succeeded and think that they own it all to their skill, persistence and diligence should read this.
Being lucky on some trivial things like name or gender may have affected your success more than you think.
[+] [-] neilk|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] rglovejoy|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] prodigal_erik|16 years ago|reply
Maybe the false assumption was that she's a partnered dilettante (who might get bored and not deliver your work) rather than a professional (who takes your work seriously, in part because it's keeping the lights on), along with the assumption that mothers are more obsessed with parenting.
On that note, anyone else think it was weird that she only talked about supporting her kids, as if she herself didn't eat?
[+] [-] RK|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] wglb|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] philwelch|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jimbokun|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 100k|16 years ago|reply
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Eliot
[+] [-] dflock|16 years ago|reply
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Female_authors_who_wro...
Although, Anne Rice is on that list and her real name is apparently Howard Allen O'Brien, despite actually being female: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Rice
[+] [-] Locke1689|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jff|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Tichy|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Ixiaus|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] neilk|16 years ago|reply
I was once publicly upbraided for revealing someone's gender -- all the regulars knew, but she wanted to be incognito for the legions of net-geeks, lest she receive zillions of come-ons every time she posted anything.
[+] [-] nollidge|16 years ago|reply
"On-Topic: Anything that good hackers would find interesting. That includes more than hacking and startups. If you had to reduce it to a sentence, the answer might be: anything that gratifies one's intellectual curiosity."
[1] http://ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
[+] [-] csuper|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] axod|16 years ago|reply
Reddit seems to have focused itself on the erosion (Or apparent) erosion of freedoms.
Hacker news seems to have focused itself on sexism (Or apparent) in technology.
Does every community gravitate to some specific cause?
[+] [-] unknown|16 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] xal|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Tichy|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Daniel_Newby|16 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ilamont|16 years ago|reply