Unfortunately, and unlike a QR code, the data is not encoded in the drawing itself, which means an Internet connection is always needed. For URL sharing the Internet connection requirement is not so much of a problem (you'd always need that connection for browsing to the URL, unless it's a local or data URL), for everything else it may be.
Also, once the Meshtag service goes down or closes for good, all tags become impossible to read, which pretty much puts me off of using this for any permanent purposes. I suppose it will also have to deal with copyright infringement issues (and there would need to be a mechanism for submitting DMCA notices), but don't take my word for it. Related: it's easier to censor.
Whether these disadvantages are enough to make up for the fact that the codes can be drawn by hand, and can expire, only time can tell.
By the way, if this could be made to use squares instead of triangles, I guess it would be easier to draw on grid paper.
> Unfortunately, and unlike a QR code, the data is not encoded in the drawing itself.
Obviously, there is data in the drawing. Just that data is a symbol which is resolved through some proprietary app, which maintains the association in a private database where it is subject to expiry and such.
Just some third party has to develop an independent app to open up access to the data in the drawing and use it outside of the original system.
There might not be enough data in the drawing for it to satsify the same use cases as QR codes.
For private labeling, it could be good enough.
For private labeling, though, I'd prefer something that just scans alphanumeric labels, and not some silly triangles. I don't want to rack my brain inventing a triangle code for my Lady Diana collectible #153 that is different from those which I tacked onto 1 through 152. :)
> once the Meshtag service goes down or closes for good, all tags become impossible to read
That is my concern as well. Also, what problem does meshtag solve? Why wouldn't I just use QR codes? I mean meshtag is neat and all, but seems like a novetly to me.
Very true. And I steered away from squares due to the "swastika effect". Also because the information is slightly more dense with a system based on triangles - 6 bits at a given vertex versus 4 bits.
if that's true then it doesn't really solve anything. The other obvious issue is how people are going to remember complex shapes like that. What about using a combination of 3 basic shapes instead (triangle,square,circle).
Yet the idea is still quite interesting. The OP is definitely on something here.
I'm less worried about the requirement for an internet connection than I am about the single point of failure. When the centralised service goes down, all your tags are useless squiggles.
I suppose you could rework this to actually encode the message in the shape much like a qr code. You could do it by having the first 9 characters be done by just moving around the 3 sides of the triangle, then the next set would have a dot in the middle, and then the next set would have a line through the middle, etc. You could then write that line-by-line or in a spiral or something.
Neat to think about though. And, unlike QR codes they look sufficiently sci-fi.
That is a huge problem. A better solution would have been an app which takes a url and shows a sketch of triangles or squares which the user can then write out. Such an app could work offline as well.
This is nothing more than a (pointlessly!) complex URL shortener... Meshtags are exactly equivalent to the following hypothetical service which I call "SuperNumericShortener":
1. Pick any random number, say 1234. This is your identifier.
2. Register this identifier and your URL at SuperNumericShortener.com
3. Write "SNS-1234" anywhere you want.
4. Install a fancy smartphone app that can take a picture of a writing and recognize "SNS-1234".
That's it. Oh and you can pay to reserve short identifiers (since they are likely to be claimed by other users of the service).
And for some reason meshtags use triangular shapes instead of numbers. Maybe it makes the concept look fancier than what it really is. Or maybe the author thought it would be easier to recognize a meshtag than detecting the shape "SNS" and do OCR to extract the following identifier? Either way, "SNS-1234" is easier to memorize, faster to draw, can be communicated in writing and speech. All advantages that meshtags lack.
Edit: here is something I would really want: in my Android Chrome address bar, next to the microphone icon, I want a camera icon that lets me snap a picture of a written URL, and opens it directly. No obscure QR code, meshtag, or whatever.
Google Goggles will open up a written URL just from a picture. For handwritten ones I think it just has to be really legible but for printed ones it works easily.
It's a confusing solution for a problem that does not exist, which is how to use a pen to draw readable shapes, a problem many of us learned how to solve in elementary school.[0]
Sorry, but the problem is how to use a pen to draw machine readable shapes. Machines find reading QR codes and OP's triangles easier than reading letters.
Thought I'd clarify generally a little bit. QR codes definitely have a lot of advantages over Meshtag - and they're perfect for what they do. I'm by no means suggesting this could "replace" QR codes.
Where Meshtag fits in is that it's aimed at users and not companies. I think a large reason most people don't scan QR codes is because they assume they're just trying to sell you something. But if you saw a meshtag that somebody drew on a wall somewhere, wouldn't you be curious?
Also, thanks for all the feedback! I have dreamed of being on hacker news since I started coming here. Any UI/UX designers in the Boston area, hit me up if you want to get involved!
Actually, when I see MeshTags I assume "they're" just trying to sell me an cumbersome url shortening serivce.
By the way, the assumption that people don't/won't use QR codes is wrong. Here's one example: Chinese associate QR codes with product information (ex.: scanning a code on a bottle of soda).
Many people don't use QR codes but I think your assumption (QR codes will evermore be perceived as commercials) is totally off base.
Even though everyone else is talking about this as an impractical solution, I think it's clever at least.
I don't know that I would ever use it, but I like the novel concept of it. If this was just a for-fun kind of project, I'd think it was pretty awesome. If you're trying to market it as a business, you're going to run into all the problems everyone else has already mentioned.
Yes, I think people are missing the point. It's not like the author is proposing an IETF standard or claiming this fixes some inherent problem with URLs. It's a novelty and is aesthetically pleasing.
I could see someone making stuff on Etsy stitching/drawing this in as a signature that links to their homepage.
Sam, Cool stuff. I get what you're doing here, but from these comments I think QR code reference really throws people off. While comparing to QR might explain how it works, I would do my best to position this as nothing like QR codes (and highlight use cases that make it unique from QR) to avoid the comparison.
This. All the concerns first parent raised (SPOF, etc) are valid ones, but that doesn't mean the service is inherently bad, and I'd hate Sam to take all this as a completely negative response. It just suits a different use. I get that it's aimed at people who want to hand draw the symbols, and that's pretty cool.
Thanks! I think you're right, I'm going to get rid of the QR code reference in the landing page headline. Maybe just 'Hand-drawn, scannable web links'. I will then have an FAQ box that says 'How is this different than a QR code?' where I list a lot of the feedback I got from this thread.
Yeah, if only modern humans had a rich, widely understood, system for presenting strings of data visually, which we spend millions of dollars each year teaching everyone we can, and which is already a pre-requisite for using 95% of all online media.
If the problem is machine recognition of handwriting, the Graffiti alphabet is both human readable and writable and easy enough for a 32MHz 68030-ish CPU to recognize in realtime.
> No. Unlike QR codes, meshtags of any color on any background can be scanned. There just needs to be enough contrast between the meshtag and its background, and the background must be a solid color.
qr codes can be any color, just need to have enough contrast, also depending on the redundancy level of it you can actually omit a significant fraction of the qr code and still have it scan
You are right. However, I think most scanners only scan dark QR codes on light backgrounds, which is not the case with Meshtag. You can draw on chalkboards, pavement, etc.
Damn, whole lot of hate in these comments. Chill out guys, nobody's trying to kill QR codes here.
samfpetersen, you made a cool thing. Expiration of small tags is an interesting way to solve the landgrab problem. I think these would be fun to use and I hope I see some around.
I don't really get why I'd use a Meshtag over a QR code.
Pretty much everyone has a QR reader already, whereas this requires people to download a new app (for no real gain on their part either). It also requires them to have an internet connection, which for any thing other than a URL, is really not necessary.
The problem it says it's trying to solve, making them drawable, isn't really a problem at all. I've never wanted/needed to draw a QR code, that's what we have text for.
> I don't really get why I'd use a Meshtag over a QR code.
They look cooler. QR codes are obviously computer readable nonsense. Many have complained about how ugly QR codes are. This is a nicer looking alternative.
That said, your criticisms are valid. Meshtags probably aren't going to replace QR codes, but they may inspire a nicer replacement.
I think everyone here who's pointing out that this is equivalent to a link shortener is missing something: the majority of QR codes in existence right now... are encodings of link-shortener URLs.
This is cool, though as said in the other comments, it's unfortunate that the readability of the codes are tied to the availability of the service, like a URL shortener, i.e., not very mesh.
Did you do much research onto the actual "serialization format" of the tags? Aesthetically they are nice, but I wonder how deep the rabbit hole goes for drawable-but-not-necessarily-human-readable dense formats, which is a slightly different utility function than regular written languages. I imagine there's some overlap with the psychology of memorizing passwords which are opaque semantically, but still need to be remembered.
I much prefer QR Codes as there is nothing to buy and their embedded data makes them standalone. Meshtags seem more like a graphical version of bitly or tinyurl.
I think a lot of people are missing the point here.
What we basically have is a pictograph URL shortener. This may be complex from the computer side, but from a human side, this could be vastly simpler.
E.g:
- Draw a Triforce and go to Nintendos Zelda page.
- Draw a big triangle, with a line across the top to make a mountain, and go to some page about Everest or something.
And since it's the segments that matter, the possibilities are endless, spokes of a bike wheel, a pizza, pacman, airplane. It also easier to remember than a url, and if your memory is a bit fuzzy, just start drawing and you can figure out if it looks funny.
hey, this is wonderful. it would be great if street painters adopted this to communicate with their audience. i would love to go into a tunnels with cool street paintings and scan these signs and get access to playlists, videos and messages that the painter wants us to visit. these cool triangles could become symbols of an underground movement if promoted in these communities.
As a tag system, this doesn't seem to have any advantages compared to QR codes, and it has several disadvantages (central authority, possible conflict, only encodes the key rather than the direct value).
However, this system does have an advantage for other purposes: those where the ability to reproduce it from memory is important. QR codes aren't memorizable; meshtags seem more so. Consider how many people prefer Android swipe-unlock patterns rather than PINs or passwords. Many people have good spatial memories, much more so than their memory for arbitrary strings. You could use this in cases where the property of being able to reproduce this from memory is important. Figure out how many bits of entropy this can represent, create and document a perfect 1:1 mapping between meshtags and an encoding, and target use cases QR codes can't handle.
For that matter, how robust is this against minor errors, and how high-resolution can you make it and still reliably resolve it? Can you pack this more densely than a QR code and still reliably read it? If so, you've got something particularly interesting.
I've never in my life wanted to draw a bar code or QR.. Also I can hand-write a URL which both a human and OCR can read. So this all seems pointless.. outside of it possibly being a fun exercise to par take in.
[+] [-] gbl08ma|10 years ago|reply
Also, once the Meshtag service goes down or closes for good, all tags become impossible to read, which pretty much puts me off of using this for any permanent purposes. I suppose it will also have to deal with copyright infringement issues (and there would need to be a mechanism for submitting DMCA notices), but don't take my word for it. Related: it's easier to censor.
Whether these disadvantages are enough to make up for the fact that the codes can be drawn by hand, and can expire, only time can tell.
By the way, if this could be made to use squares instead of triangles, I guess it would be easier to draw on grid paper.
[+] [-] mFixman|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kazinator|10 years ago|reply
Obviously, there is data in the drawing. Just that data is a symbol which is resolved through some proprietary app, which maintains the association in a private database where it is subject to expiry and such.
Just some third party has to develop an independent app to open up access to the data in the drawing and use it outside of the original system.
There might not be enough data in the drawing for it to satsify the same use cases as QR codes.
For private labeling, it could be good enough.
For private labeling, though, I'd prefer something that just scans alphanumeric labels, and not some silly triangles. I don't want to rack my brain inventing a triangle code for my Lady Diana collectible #153 that is different from those which I tacked onto 1 through 152. :)
[+] [-] VT_Drew|10 years ago|reply
That is my concern as well. Also, what problem does meshtag solve? Why wouldn't I just use QR codes? I mean meshtag is neat and all, but seems like a novetly to me.
[+] [-] samfpetersen|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] aikah|10 years ago|reply
if that's true then it doesn't really solve anything. The other obvious issue is how people are going to remember complex shapes like that. What about using a combination of 3 basic shapes instead (triangle,square,circle).
Yet the idea is still quite interesting. The OP is definitely on something here.
[+] [-] davidbanham|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Vexs|10 years ago|reply
Neat to think about though. And, unlike QR codes they look sufficiently sci-fi.
[+] [-] honestcoyote|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mrb|10 years ago|reply
1. Pick any random number, say 1234. This is your identifier.
2. Register this identifier and your URL at SuperNumericShortener.com
3. Write "SNS-1234" anywhere you want.
4. Install a fancy smartphone app that can take a picture of a writing and recognize "SNS-1234".
5. The app opens your browser to http://SuperNumericShortener.com/1234 which redirects to whatever URL you chose.
That's it. Oh and you can pay to reserve short identifiers (since they are likely to be claimed by other users of the service).
And for some reason meshtags use triangular shapes instead of numbers. Maybe it makes the concept look fancier than what it really is. Or maybe the author thought it would be easier to recognize a meshtag than detecting the shape "SNS" and do OCR to extract the following identifier? Either way, "SNS-1234" is easier to memorize, faster to draw, can be communicated in writing and speech. All advantages that meshtags lack.
Edit: here is something I would really want: in my Android Chrome address bar, next to the microphone icon, I want a camera icon that lets me snap a picture of a written URL, and opens it directly. No obscure QR code, meshtag, or whatever.
[+] [-] starshadowx2|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] camillomiller|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] CPLX|10 years ago|reply
[0] http://www.auburn.edu/academic/education/reading_genie/lette...
[+] [-] sherjilozair|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|10 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] 542458|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] samfpetersen|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] samfpetersen|10 years ago|reply
Where Meshtag fits in is that it's aimed at users and not companies. I think a large reason most people don't scan QR codes is because they assume they're just trying to sell you something. But if you saw a meshtag that somebody drew on a wall somewhere, wouldn't you be curious?
Also, thanks for all the feedback! I have dreamed of being on hacker news since I started coming here. Any UI/UX designers in the Boston area, hit me up if you want to get involved!
[+] [-] lcfg|10 years ago|reply
By the way, the assumption that people don't/won't use QR codes is wrong. Here's one example: Chinese associate QR codes with product information (ex.: scanning a code on a bottle of soda).
Many people don't use QR codes but I think your assumption (QR codes will evermore be perceived as commercials) is totally off base.
[+] [-] Dru89|10 years ago|reply
I don't know that I would ever use it, but I like the novel concept of it. If this was just a for-fun kind of project, I'd think it was pretty awesome. If you're trying to market it as a business, you're going to run into all the problems everyone else has already mentioned.
[+] [-] logn|10 years ago|reply
I could see someone making stuff on Etsy stitching/drawing this in as a signature that links to their homepage.
[+] [-] bengali3|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] unknown|10 years ago|reply
[deleted]
[+] [-] jarofgreen|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] samfpetersen|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jmount|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] robomc|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dsr_|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] cwmma|10 years ago|reply
qr codes can be any color, just need to have enough contrast, also depending on the redundancy level of it you can actually omit a significant fraction of the qr code and still have it scan
[+] [-] ryan-c|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] blfr|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] samfpetersen|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pavedwalden|10 years ago|reply
samfpetersen, you made a cool thing. Expiration of small tags is an interesting way to solve the landgrab problem. I think these would be fun to use and I hope I see some around.
[+] [-] LukeB_UK|10 years ago|reply
Pretty much everyone has a QR reader already, whereas this requires people to download a new app (for no real gain on their part either). It also requires them to have an internet connection, which for any thing other than a URL, is really not necessary.
The problem it says it's trying to solve, making them drawable, isn't really a problem at all. I've never wanted/needed to draw a QR code, that's what we have text for.
[+] [-] tyrust|10 years ago|reply
They look cooler. QR codes are obviously computer readable nonsense. Many have complained about how ugly QR codes are. This is a nicer looking alternative.
That said, your criticisms are valid. Meshtags probably aren't going to replace QR codes, but they may inspire a nicer replacement.
[+] [-] derefr|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] qqueue|10 years ago|reply
Did you do much research onto the actual "serialization format" of the tags? Aesthetically they are nice, but I wonder how deep the rabbit hole goes for drawable-but-not-necessarily-human-readable dense formats, which is a slightly different utility function than regular written languages. I imagine there's some overlap with the psychology of memorizing passwords which are opaque semantically, but still need to be remembered.
[+] [-] foofoo55|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] 2muchcoffeeman|10 years ago|reply
What we basically have is a pictograph URL shortener. This may be complex from the computer side, but from a human side, this could be vastly simpler.
E.g: - Draw a Triforce and go to Nintendos Zelda page. - Draw a big triangle, with a line across the top to make a mountain, and go to some page about Everest or something.
And since it's the segments that matter, the possibilities are endless, spokes of a bike wheel, a pizza, pacman, airplane. It also easier to remember than a url, and if your memory is a bit fuzzy, just start drawing and you can figure out if it looks funny.
Good job Sam!
[+] [-] dibbo|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] pulkitanand|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] SchizoDuckie|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] fla|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dsr_|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] JoshTriplett|10 years ago|reply
However, this system does have an advantage for other purposes: those where the ability to reproduce it from memory is important. QR codes aren't memorizable; meshtags seem more so. Consider how many people prefer Android swipe-unlock patterns rather than PINs or passwords. Many people have good spatial memories, much more so than their memory for arbitrary strings. You could use this in cases where the property of being able to reproduce this from memory is important. Figure out how many bits of entropy this can represent, create and document a perfect 1:1 mapping between meshtags and an encoding, and target use cases QR codes can't handle.
For that matter, how robust is this against minor errors, and how high-resolution can you make it and still reliably resolve it? Can you pack this more densely than a QR code and still reliably read it? If so, you've got something particularly interesting.
[+] [-] rootedbox|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] vessenes|10 years ago|reply
For it to be compelling, it needs to be readable in a bunch of iOS / Android barcode scanners, though. Any plans there?
[+] [-] samfpetersen|10 years ago|reply
[+] [-] birdsbolt|10 years ago|reply
Another interesting alternative. Prettier than QR and IMO meshtag.