Ask HN: Dealing with a Toxic Co-Worker

[NoIInTeam]

How do you deal with a toxic developer co-worker?

I've been working with one for some time now, and I'm really tired of it. I just don't know what I should do. Moving on and finding another job is something I only want to consider as a last resort, and I am afraid that if I do nothing, then I see no alternative, on the other side, I feel like if I do something, I may be forced to move on.

Background: The employee is quite capable, and they were hired in as a top developer. Our manager respects their opinion about technical matters, and is a thought leader on how we should build our applications. The employee's biggest issue is their personality. They constantly belittle other employees, usually to a coworker after they have left their office, when this employee dislikes work they have done. Anytime someone screws up in the organization that person is an idiot or worse. For someone who is supposed to be a technical leader, they set a poor example for other developers to follow.

This person is favored by our manager because they get things done when there is pressure. I know this employee has been counseled by our manager on more than one occasion. Afterwards, his attitude improves for a few weeks before falling back into old habits.

I am just not sure what to do. I have a few options.

1. I could speak directly with my manager. I am concerned about this, because my manager has a big mouth, and I cannot trust that my complaint would be 100% confidential

2. I could go above my manager. Probably not an option here. My manager and his boss are close. I think it would make things even worse

3. File a complaint with HR. This seems like the best option, but I have my reservations about going down this route.

4. Just leave. I would really rather not do this. I do enjoy most of my job, and I worry that the grass may not be greener on the other side.

5. Shut up and do nothing about it. Is an option but I would still feel miserable.

[greenyoda]

I don't think going to HR is the right approach. HR works for management, and they're much more likely to side with your manager (who likes toxic-guy) than you. Also, it doesn't sound like toxic-guy's behavior breaks any laws, so HR might prefer to ignore him since he poses no legal threat to the company. They could just throw the problem back at you and tell you to work it out between yourselves. Or you could end up getting branded as a "troublemaker".

Similarly, your manager's boss is much more likely to side with your manager than with you. And complaining to your own manager may backfire if he values toxic-guy more than you (which seems to be the case).

So I'd suggest that if it really bothers you, start looking for a new job. Otherwise, ignore it. If your manager is already talking to him about his behavior, he might eventually improve his attitude.

For more on HR's role in a company, you might want to read this book (which I read after it was recommended a while back by someone else on HN):

Corporate Confidential: 50 Secrets Your Company Doesn't Want You to Know---and What to Do About Them

By Cynthia Shapiro

http://www.amazon.com/dp/0312337361

[vcool07]

well, this is what helped when I faced a similar siutation : 1. I took the guy who offended me to an informal cup of coffee and discussed about the situation. 2. Instead of confronting him, I explained my perspective and sought out his guidance to help me out.

It did help me in two ways : 1. The other person realized that I'm another human being just like him and not some "ideal code cranking robot" that he expected me to be ! He even apologized at some point for any offense he would have caused, explained his reasons and assured me that it was not personal. 2. I realized that he was under similar stress for meeting his own challenges / expectations laid out to him by his superiors. So, helped me feel better about myself , that the situation was caused mostly due to his inability to communicate rather than any fault from my end !

[chris_wot]

That might work some of the time, but more often than not this just makes you a target because you threaten that person's sense of self-worth.

[paulojreis]

Shouldn't you try to invite him for a beer and talk about it?

Also, be careful when stamping the "toxic" label. I'm not saying you're wrong in your judgement, but maybe you just don't know what's happening with his personal life. I have a fellow colleague which I always considered at least "cranky" since I joined my current company (half a year ago). Last week we traveled to work abroad and had some free time to talk over beers - he confided me that his mother was and still is very sick. Tough stuff, which reminded me clearly how frivolous we all can be when making judgements.

[kabdib]

Don't go to HR. Don't go to HR. Don't go to HR.

HR is not there for you. HR is there for the company. Expect the worst if you go to HR and ask for any help. Doing this will immediately politicize the situation, making you the "bad guy" and you'll be on the defensive trying to save your job so fast your head will be spinning.

This has been true at every company I have worked at. HR might be a fine ombudsman at your company, but this would be an exception that I have never seen.

[orionblastar]

I had a programming job that had a toxic environment. I could not leave because I had a house and family. It was during the Dotcom busts so finding a job was difficult to impossible. I worked for a law firm that didn't value their IT workers. While I wrote programs that saved them millions of dollars a year by eliminating waste and missing court dockets was eliminated by writing a docket calendar, they would only go by how much money we earned and how long it took to get projects done.

A lot of the programmers rushed their code so it was sloppy and crashed the system and take down the database. I had to fix those programs and also work on my own programs. I got assigned Legacy Software Support and anything that broke became Legacy Software and assigned to me. I had over 134 projects to work on and had tight deadlines.

I ended up stressed out and on short-term disability, and when I returned to work and had a panic attack I was fired for not snapping out of it. I ended up on disability.

My best advice for you is to learn how to manage stress, no matter where you work there will always be a toxic element to it. The better a programmer the bigger the ego they have in some cases. Sure it is hard to get along with a jerk that management likes and is fire-proof. But if you can change your reactions and manage your stress better you can deal with it better. Don't make the mistake I did and let it get to you to the point that you make yourself sick.

[moomin]

4), and here's why: the manager is already aware of this behaviour and hasn't acted on it. In other words, you're dealing with a toxic _culture_, not a toxic co-worker.

By all means do 5 while you execute on 4, but you're in no position to change the culture of the firm. Go and find a better one. (Context: I've done exactly this.)

[rajacombinator]

Strong this. If your manager is already aware, then it's too late to fix. You would have to alter the behavior of both the employee and the manager. And most likely everyone up the chain as well because examples are set from the top. Just bail.

[Ellahn]

He needs to feel superior. He is confrontational to prove himself, he needs to "win" to feel he is better than everyone and validate himself.

If you call hiss bullshit he'll probably go into denial (sooner or later). He can also become depressive, or even more aggressive. Those are defense mechanisms. They are triggered in confrontational situations, the "fight or flight" instinct. Men usually fight, women usually flight. Best option is for him to actually feel good about himself, as people "at the top" do not belittle the little people, as it would mean they feel threatened (and, as such, are afraid, meaning they're not as strong as the other).

Best way imho is to be friendly to him, and when he belittles someone, instead of confronting him, you approach tangentially, making him feel he would be even "more superior" if he helped. This way he will be validated by his experience and by his understanding.

For example, "man, you don't need to go that far. I mean, you've [been doing this for a long time]/[studied a lot]/[put a lot of effort], you must have made some mistakes too. And you're [one of the best]/[probably the best]/[an awesome] developer. If you could give us some tips sometimes, II bet we'd become an even greater team. :D"

And obviously, whenever you can, praise stuff his done well and ask for opinions. Can be on conceptual stuff or whatever, just help him feel "validated" for his good points and he will naturally shift to a less confrontative behavior, plus he will focus on the stuff that got people to like him.

He should do therapy btw, but suggesting this will probably make things worse. If nobody can make this work, all the good devs will end up leaving, and the company will be left with people that have no other options... Not a good place to work at, unfortunately.

[Asbostos]

Helping people with problems is absolutely the best thing to do. When people offend us, we tend to write them off as an "asshole" or general bad person. But they're still a person with the same motivations as everyone else.

It's entirely possible that most other staff aren't showing him as much respect as they do each other. He may feel miffed when he does something great and nobody compliments him while others doing seemingly lesser things are publicly congratulated. People responding to "assholes" in this way only perpetuates the hostile feelings of everyone involved, and even makes their behavior seem more justifiable.

Something to look for in a company when you're applying is how they treat people with problems - either poor performance, not fitting in with coworkers, etc. Some companies try to help the people with problems while others try to get rid of whichever party to the disagreements is most powerless. I've even seen a case where many coworkers were rude to one individual and antagonized him into aggressiveness, then he was fired after taking a vote and finding he was unpopular!

[citrusx]

My advice, to take with appropriate salt: Leave.

It's a seller's market for people with your skills right now. There's no guarantee that you'll find a new environment that doesn't have one of these cancer-in-the-locker-room culture killers, but they're not quite as common as you're fearing.

It's not just this one employee that's the problem, it's that the bad apple, the manager, and the manager's manager are all knitted together into a situation that you can't break, which is making you "miserable". You may not like the idea of leaving. But, given the information you've provided, it is your best option. (Or, maybe your least-worst option.)

[lultimouomo]

> It's a seller's market for people with your skills right now.

This gets repeated way too often - bordering on the obsessive.

What are OP's skills? Where does he live? Unless I'm missing something obvious, we have no clue about it.

I a vast majority of planet earth, it is not a seller market for developers. It isn't for basically any kind of skill, simply because there are no jobs. Even if we assume OP is from the USA (which is kind of arbitrary), on in a handful of places you can leave your job without a thought and be almost sure you'll land another good one quick enough .

Now, to be honest, you said your advice was to be taken with a grain of salt, but I still think it's worth pointing out the huge assumption - which is basically that OP is living in Northern California, Seattle or New York.

[MichaelGG]

If you decide to report to anyone, is it a bad idea to keep a log of what he says? Not necessarily audio (depending on jurisdiction), but keep a journal? Then you can point out what insults were levered against which people on which dates. It would make your complaint much harder to dismiss.

And it would be pretty bad if said report was leaked to other employees. People might put up with this stuff one by one, but hearing the insults about themselves suddenly changes things. Though again, this might be a horrible idea.

[sinneduy]

At my current workplace, this also wouldn't fly. Its just not worth it in the long run, especially when your company is small (from a managerial perspective)

That being said, obviously your manager doesn't share this ethos. In the future, this is something you might want to filter for.

If I were you, I would make preparations for the worst and escalate. You don't want to leave, but you need to be willing to and prepared to do so. If you do escalate though, go to your manager. He's clearly aware of it, and ultimately its politically a mistake to go to either HR or your manager's manager, since it'll hurt your relations with your direct manager.

Doing nothing isn't an option in the long term if nothing changes. There's no real point in considering it.

[DanielBMarkham]

Over many different work experiences, all over the place, my simple rule is this: if I am thinking about whether or not I should leave? I should leave.

That doesn't always mean that I leave -- only that by the time I'm asking the questions you're asking, it's always been too late. It was time to go a while back and I just didn't want to admit it.

Good luck! I doubt there's some magic sauce or fairy sprinkle dust that will turn a jackass into a flower, but perhaps your experience will be different from mine.

[onion2k]

They constantly belittle other employees, usually to a coworker after they have left their office, when this employee dislikes work they have done. Anytime someone screws up in the organization that person is an idiot or worse. For someone who is supposed to be a technical leader, they set a poor example for other developers to follow.

Question what this person is saying. Stand up for your coworkers if you think they've done good work and the comments are unreasonable. If your coworker is wrong then he won't able to defend his position, and he'll look ridiculous. If he's right that the work is poor then he'll look stupid for complaining when the developer in question isn't there.

Just make sure there are plenty of other people around, particularly your boss.

[wisty]

Is it possible they actually need a guy like this, because there really are an unmanageable number of cock-ups? If so, it might be a symptom of deeper organizational problems. They're hiring a head-kicker and a fire-fighter.

So you can leave (because you don't really want to work in an organization that needs that kind of intervention).

Or you can speak to the co-worker, and try to come up with strategies for fixing shit. It doesn't sound like he's just angry (otherwise management wouldn't have his back), it sounds like he's angry at actual problem. Try to get him focused on the problems that can be fixed (see the Joel test?), not ones that can't (people issues).

Try to get him to focus on the process, not the people.

Or just leave. It's possible he's just an asshole.

[monk_e_boy]

> Or just leave.

I've worked a few jobs where a manager has left or been moved. Within six months almost all of the team has left. People leave due to conflicts of personality and or changing work styles. This is normal.

[kathishah]

How about just talk to this person directly? It may be more effective to have the conversation about the actions and not the person.

At my current workplace, this kind of "brilliant ahole" is shown the door asap but most workplace cultures encourage (passively or actively) this behavior.

[meerita]

I experienced the same in my company.

How I solved it:

1. Confrontation. 2. Talking to managers and tell them I would leave. 3. Giving him the attention and greet him when he wanted to do something good. 4. Hear his opinion. 5. Remind him my role when power argument arise. 6. Indifference and segregation also worked well. The company started to avoid him.

If none of these calm him, then I would simply leave. There´s no need to gift life and sanity for a jerk.

[trcollinson]

I assume by your post that you are one of the people who thus coworker is speaking badly of. Either that or you are a person who this coworker is speaking to about others. In either case, it can be uncomfortable.

Have you thought about talking to your coworker directly? I know this may sound rough right now and I don't suggest being confrontational. Maybe just ask him out to lunch with you. Build a relationship. It's hard to be mean to a friend... You could become his friend. I had a similar situation recently with a coworker. At a company lunch I noticed this particular coworker was not invited to sit with anyone. I invited him over. We chatted about non-work things. Our relationship did improve. He's still overbearing and mean, but less so. Our relationship has improved.

Also, are his evaluations actually incorrect? Sometimes people are mean and honest at the same time. Are the people he is speaking badly about actually completing work poorly? Is he having to pick up their slack? Does he have to work late or harder because of them? He is purely venting his honest frustration?

[ruraljuror]

Your coworker's behavior is extreme, but your response shouldn't be. It is not your job to manage your coworker's interactions with others, and your manager already seems aware of the situation. Instead you have a responsibility to yourself as well as your team. You should empower yourself to act on your beliefs. It's telling that none of your five options include speaking to your coworker or trying to enact any change yourself.

If, for example, your coworker begins to belittle someone else once they leave the room, you could say something like: "I don't think that null-reference exception makes them an idiot, but that's why we have code review," or "...perhaps we should have code review," or "...perhaps you could show them how you have handled a similar problem in your code, so we could learn from it."

When you interact with your coworker, use professionalism as a tool: keep the topic relevant to business and remain as unemotional as possible. If you start to become emotional or if your coworker becomes emotional slow down what you are saying to give yourself time. You can also repeat what he or she is saying, in order to confirm or mirror it.

If you keep it professional no one is going to blame you. Obviously you can get away with much worse, but you need to indicate to this person that it's not ok to talk that way around you. If you're feeling that way and your manager is feeling that way, then other people probably are. If you act professionally, you will give your coworker a dignified way of changing their behavior. Everyone, especially management, will want to avoid drama; but that doesn't mean you should let this person do whatever he or she wants. Right now you're enabling that behavior.

Finally, you should think very carefully about leaving your job because of one other person. That is a major life decision you are making, all because of one jackass. What are you going to do at the next job if you don't like someone? I would try to at least exert some influence yourself before changing your entire work life.

[huangc10]

I've had a similar experience with a fellow co-worker. In fact, my manager also saw this as an issue but the toxic co-worker was too important to the team. I suffered through it for a year and ultimately left in the end (although for different reasons). I guess what I'm trying to say is, having a toxic co-worker isn't the end of the world. Keep on learning and do your job. If at the point you find yourself not learning as much and not enjoying your job (and your co-worker is still toxic), it means it's time to move on. By that time you'll have learned how to deal with and thrive around a co-worker who is "toxic". Live, learn, adapt.

[sheepmullet]

Perhaps it's the situation rather than the person?

Ive worked in high pressure environments before and a little bit of venting is incredibly tame.

From the sounds of it whenever there is a crises he is the one expected to take care of it.

The easiest way to fix it is to take on a chunk of the responsibility yourself. At the very least it will give you a better understanding of the pressure he is under.

If I have to work through the weekend fixing critical problems caused by careless coworkers then I'll probably have a whinge. If you make me miss out on spending time with my wife and kids.... Of course I'll be a bit frustrated with you.

[mikekchar]

To sum up the situation, you have a co-worker that you can't work well with because of their behaviour. Your manager is aware of the situation and tried, but failed to get the co-worker to change their behaviour.

To make life easy for you, I'll lay out your options:

- Go to your manager with a plan for improving the co-worker's behaviour. Any other conversation about it will be pointless because the manager has shown that they are unable to fix the problem without help.

- Go to your co-worker and find a way to convince them to change their behaviour. Remember that the manager has already tried and failed at this. You will have to try an approach other than saying "I would really like you to change your behaviour".

- Engineer the termination of employment of the co-worker by means fair or foul. (Note that going above your direct manager or to HR is essentially an attempt in this direction).

- Find a way to be happy in your work, despite your co-worker's behaviour.

- Engineer your own termination of employment.

I think only one of these approaches is easy and none are without risk. If you are willing and able to help your co-worker, this is likely to have the best possible outcome. The chances for success, though, are vanishingly small.

Improving the quality of the team by engineering other people's termination is something that is not so difficult if you know how to do it, but it rather paints a big arrow at your head with the caption "I am evil". Whether you want to go down this route is entirely up to you. It often makes your team happy at the expense of the person you are targeting.

Finding a way to be happy despite the poor behaviour of your colleagues is a very nice outcome for yourself, personally, but it doesn't do much to help others who share your situation. Still, if you wait long enough, the co-worker in questions may gather enough rope to hang themselves.

Finally, you can leave. Knowing when you have had enough is a wonderful wisdom to have. There are risks, as you have said and nobody can evaluate them for you.

It's not a good situation to be in. It's not entirely uncommon, though, given the short period of time people tend to stay in groups in this field, you are likely to encounter the situation again sometime in the future. Building your own skills so that you can help people who suffer from being assholes is something that can be quite valuable (and even marketable). Alas, I have never learned the knack myself.

[calibraxis]

Interesting, how do you engineer termination? (I imagine one must discover ways to raise all sorts of costs so it's eventually worth it for them to be gone.)