Ask HN: When should you quit?

[jorgecurio]

this is a pretty dark post but I'm pretty much burnt out. Not one of those 'take a break' and come back but I just don't think I can deal with working in tech anymore. I started out as a software dev for a couple of years, moved on to selling my own software and just too tired to go on. Like I don't think I can compete or have the willpower.

I tried to think of new software ideas to work on but I really can't muster any energy to do it. I know there's ton of exciting new tech stuff going on but after 16 years I think I've had enough.

It's been a really interesting 6 years working on my own thing. But it was far too isolating. Too much mental health issue causing. And it's a zero sum game I'm realizing, one that is won by whoever can raise the most amount of money in the shortest time period.

I don't know maybe my head was too high in the clouds. But I'm turning 30, and I think it's time I quit and look for other things. I don't know anything else besides making software, and I feel so old to be trying something completely new. If I keep going I think it's going to drive me nuts. Even reading HN and Techcrunch these days I'm not even feeling excited or let alone interested.

I haven't had any success and all I've done was get taken advantaged of by crappy customers, worked for free for years, and yeah.

I know I'm not owed or entitled to anything. It was my decision after all to work on something alone for such a long time. And it was all for shit.

I even got a hold of investors but I just think it's too late. I should've taken money 6 years earlier, not now. I'm burnt out and can't do anything in front of the computer anymore. Like I just want to get away from computers permanently almost. I try to imagine what life was like before internet and computers and I don't fucking know and it scares me.

tl;dr: want to quit making software & tech but don't know where to turn.

[trowawee]

> "I feel so old to be trying something completely new."

Dude. You're 30. I'm not going to post the cliche list of people who've done amazing, impactful things after age 30, but please understand that that list easily runs to the hundreds of millions. You have a lot of time to do whatever you want. Take a break. If you still want to get out of tech, then jump into another field. If not, just take a normal tech job and be one of us drones for a bit. It won't kill you, and it might reenergize your desire to make your own thing.

You're been working on your own thing for six years, which means you started it before you had even reached the age where you could rent a car. You have never experienced a normal life. Give it a shot. It's not as terrible as it's sometimes made out to be. I'm not making a billion dollars, but I get paid well and I go home to a nice place; I live with a beautiful girlfriend and I exercise at a nice gym and take fun vacations and eat at nice restaurants and drink fancy scotches. It's not jetting to Malta on the weekends, but it's better than what the vast majority of people on this earth who are around our age can hope for.

And doing that doesn't mean you've given up and sold out or whatever. You can work on side projects when they make you happy. The cult of the entrepreneur hasn't done right by you. Try another path, and see if it works better. It might fit you better, or it might reenergize you to get back into the startup space, or it might make you realize you need to live in a hippie commune. (If that's the case, I know a place.)

[emmasz]

My husband had the same problem when I met him. He was 27 and just decided to never ever make a living from programming again because he felt sick of it.

So, he decided he would organize bicycle rides in Transylvania. And he looked really cool doing that so I fell in love with him, but he wasn't making any money while working his ass off. I didn't care ( -I had a job), but after a while, he did. I'm used to not afford basic stuff, but he got sick of scarcity then.

We only started doing little websites for friends in the afternoon. But they asked for more, so what could we do, right?

And here we are after 7 years, having a small software company... in Transylvania. Many times it does feel like "eating glass and staring into the abyss...". Maybe it's a grownup thing to feel that way and stand up to it. It's the overcoming of all the winning is what gives you dignity, in the end, I think.

I don't think you should quit.

[brickcap]

Do you still organize bike rides?

[vldx]

Great story, thanks for sharing it.

[PakG1]

First, taking a break is probably the most important. If you're burned out, don't underestimate the need for healing by just relaxing. If you can't afford to take a long break (no savings, etc), find a really easy job where you don't need to think much.

Honestly, the most relaxing job of my life was when I was lifting and restacking wood in a shipping warehouse. The lumber would come in on these big trucks, but they'd be stacked in a way where they couldn't fit optimally into shipping containers. So we were responsible for literally manually restacking the wood into stacks that would fit. I got to joke around with my co-workers, and the work was great exercise too. Heck, I even poohed better due to all the heavy lifting in that job. Every day, I'd go home exhausted, but happy, and have a really great night's sleep. I felt like I did an honest day's hard work and there was no debate about whether or not I was succeeding at my job too.

Don't think that you're going to get away from tech forever yet. You might find later that you really actually still like it, but you just aren't in a good place right now, so it's hard to distinguish what your emotions really mean. Or maybe you are completely done with tech. Take some time to heal and rest first for a few months, and then ask the question again.

I like jacquesm's blog posts on this subject, in the first one listed, he actually personally experiences and deals with similar questions: http://jacquesmattheij.com/categories/health

edit: Thought. If you can afford it, something like Habitat for Humanity is a great way to get that type of physical exercise, and also give back and feel like you're contributing to a worthy cause. I think it gives us warm fuzzy feelings when we're doing something for the greater good, and that helps. Heck, you might become good at it and discover that you'd rather be in construction, who knows? Again, if you can't afford it, I recommend finding a simple job where you can turn your brain off and just do stuff, preferably with a physical component.

[bb88]

If you're going to make an irrational decision, do it out of love, not hate.

When was the last time you fell in love? Maybe it was a girlfriend, perhaps it was a language? Perhaps it was with an apple product?

I realize your questioning why I'm asking this. But here's the thing. If you're going to make an irrational decision, do it out of love, not out of hate.

My love is photography, I fell in love with it while taking a camera to a juggling convention, and shooting a friend on stage. Nowadays, I can take a camera in my hand, and what ever is bothering me starts to disappear when the camera clicks. The how or why doesn't matter to me -- what matters is that I feel better after.

So, what makes you feel better?

[abhimskywalker]

"If you're going to make an irrational decision, do it out of love, not hate." :) This is awesome advice, specially for seemingly crucial decision points.

[miesman]

I'm 53 and have been working as a programmer since I was 17. I still love what I do but I've been where you are at several times. I'll tell you something you probably already know - it's impossible to make a good decision where you are at right now. For what it's worth I'd suggest taking a break and then deciding what to do once you have some distance and have shaken some of this off.

[foolrush]

Quit. But quit with a caveat:

> I haven't had any success and all I've done was get taken advantaged of by crappy customers, worked for free for years, and yeah. [...] > And it was all for shit.

This part is bullshit.

You can't see it, but all of those petty, trivial, and fragile moments have influenced who you are now.

It might take months, maybe years, for that investment to come back with dividends. The seeds of what you have learned are just now taking root for tomorrow.

Contrary to all of the late-era Capitalist rhetoric, life is not a narrative. You aren't something destined. You aren't an arc.

You are a human fucking being living an accident of delicate and frail circumstances.

Let life lead you. In due time, the act of quitting may well be the turning point that led down a tremendous path you would never have previously seen...

[northpoint]

You are a hero, and what I consider to be the definition of a real man. You did the hardest thing on earth for 6 years - you tried to build something new and useful to this planet.

I guarantee you learned a great deal about business, about technical topics, it was probably like getting an MBA and a PhD all rolled up in one.

It was a lonely path, and it still will be if you continue. It is the nature of the task. Perhaps it is time to go out among the "just started this path" types for just a little bit. After talking with you for 5 minutes, they will probably think you are a God for surviving this long, and because they sense your 6 years of vast experience.

Take a week or two off in some small town without high speed internet. You probably need a good solid vacation.

[phantom_oracle]

We live in a very strange world...

It takes these odd postings (like this one) to bring out scores of people who say "I've been there too, I got burnt out and I started to give zero fucks"

While many HN users enjoy the articulate nature of programming and have a great enthusiasm for it as a hobby, the truth is that we are all different, in very strong ways.

To the OP, before you quit, try to find another gig, perhaps not in software, but any gig to get you by. Remember that most of the world works in jobs they are not passionate about and money is a means to sustenance. Once you have a decent income stream, even if it means working as a coffee-barrista, start to find your life outside of work.

To everyone else suffering from HN, programmer-speak, x-libraries, x-languages, x-ideas, x-dreams, x-future, x-80-hour-workweeks:

Take a step back from your job and find yourself. See your job as nothing but a job. No amount of perks, free lunches, free gym-membership is going to change the fact that you are just a cog in the chain. Keep your job to keep your sustenance, but start living outside your work. Love your wife, love your children, or try to find a wife and have children. Hold on to your dear ones and build relationships beyond your tech circles. Explore ~ global travel is expensive, but chilling in a forest or sitting by a lake only costs you a little driving time and nothing else. Live outside your career, because your code will not matter and will not be remembered when you die. You, as a person, will be remembered; only by those you've built relationships with (and not your employer who gave you free lunches in 2016)

Above all else, value your time. If you never get to HN/reddit frontpage with 1246 upvotes to your legendary docker-esque github repo, breath in, look outside the window and repeat: who gives a fuck (and then move on with your life)

[orionblastar]

I worked too hard on developing software and got stressed out and developed a mental illness and became disabled.

I went back to college to take a business management degree and earned one. Thinking that I might do better as a manager. But since I have no experience as a manager, no luck in getting a job.

It is very hard to work on your own, and earn money. You need a team of people, you need investors, you need social and people skills. You need to market your product and SEO your website to get clients and customers.

I've worked on software projects that went nowhere because I couldn't get anyone interested in them.

I'm 47 now and figure my career is basically over. I could try Freelance after updating my skills to modern languages, build new projects and a portfolio, but I don't see the point when everyone else is doing that and there is a lot of competition.

[cjbprime]

> everyone else is doing that and there is a lot of competition.

You're assuming that there are more programmers than jobs, but at least for now there appear to be many more jobs than programmers.

[strongai]

Being 47 (I'm older!) gives you a perspective that younger folks simply don't have. How many SV startups are targeting people a few decades beyond their teens?

[xyzzy4]

Why not get a normal 9-5 job?

[ldom22]

I am 28 and feel exactly like you: one difference, I have never gone on my own, I have always been an employee at a huge corporation.

Right now, I look up to you a lot, you had the balls to go on your own.

I don't have a solution to this, I can only let you know that you are not alone and I relate 100%. I would get a 9to5 job, save some money, and quit and travel for a while, find your passion. This is what I hope to do, hopefully soon

[rosege]

This is good advice - I did this when I turned 30 - spent my 30th on a beach in Chile having the time of my life - then spent the next 7 months backpacking around south america - and it was the best time of my life. After I came back I worked for a few months to save some $ then moved to the other side of the world - that gave me enough interesting stuff to keep doing something I wasnt so interested in anymore - but I found unusual work opportunities that never would have happened if id stayed in the same place

[jqm]

Programming for a career does appear to affect the soul. I mean soul in the sense of self and relation to the world around self and general sense of happiness. I thought it was just me but I'm noticing it in others. Don't get me wrong... the excitement of solving problems and making things is addictive. It's a really nice high. But it definitely take a toll as certainly as laying bricks or driving semis day after day does. I don't have any actionable advice. I try to take time to do other things.. projects in the physical world. It helps some. Maybe you should get a job and change environments. Maybe you should do something else for a while. IDK... but I do feel for you.

[pragmar]

I may be reading between the lines, but it sounds like it's the business side of things that is becoming miserable. If you still enjoy writing software, it might be worth worth exploring opportunities outside of self-employment. Working for a manager comes with its own set of problems, but it can be a whole lot less stressful financially and emotionally.

[analog31]

This is a long shot because I don't know where you live, and only have HN as my source of widespread info on tech careers. But if you're in SV or somewhere like that, maybe you'd be happier in a more provincial setting. You might be able to find an employer with a more laid back environment, and a slower paced lifestyle, more access to the great outdoors, etc.

I did something similar, a couple decades ago: Pulled up stakes and moved to a town that was listed as a "best place to live," with a similar climate to where I grew up, etc. Best decision I ever made.

[helpfulanon]

I am in a very similar place right now.

Similarly horrified that my only valuable skillset makes me effectively chained to the computer screen, forever.

Been self-employed so long that full-time employers see the experience as a disqualifier from hiring. Let a string of bad business deals put me in so much debt I have no hope of putting together the financial cushion or runway towards taking an extended break or re-skilling into another industry. Been taken advantage of so many times by tech industry titans that I trust no one. Turns out the root cause was partly a mental illness working against me my entire career that I only recently was diagnosed for, well into adulthood.

Completely deflated in confidence or ability. Burned out to the point where I can no longer even effectively fake enthusiasm for selling my abilities. Jaded hostility I can no longer control towards clients, peers. Hide away from socializing with anyone else with ties to the tech business because of social anxiety fears they'll judge me for my failure, or worse, I'll get drunk and lash out.

Therapists suggest a major career change but I have no skills in anything else that could pay my bills. All the attempts at shifting away to management, associated non-code skills tend to backfire.

When my checkbook is drained, it only refills with a half-hearted sales pitch to an old client, a grudging all-night session with a text editor.

Obligations to wife, sick elderly parents that keep me bound to where I live. Got somehow stuck in an absurdly expensive soul-crushing city with absurdly hight rents for absurdly tiny living spaces, that also happens to be critical for my wife's career. She's at the top of her game here. Leaving means she gives up her career.

I've been dreaming of living in the woods making furniture or something, being a tugboat captain, construction worker, a sanitation worker even. Welding, cutting bushes, mopping floors. It took 15 years to really truly drive home how badly I misjudged my ability to succeed in this business, what the consequences were for a career of being self-employed in something that didn't really motivate me to begin with. I need a paradigm shift in how I see my life, but it just won't seem to come.

Such a bleak comment. Ugh. Sorry. Anyhow, yea you're not alone.

[contingencies]

Don't worry man, lots of us (me too! I'm 33!) started companies while young. Shutting them down is liberating, not every effort comes to monumental financial success. Some say that the true measure of a person is how they respond to challenges. Knowing that there is no set direction in life, it's really healthy to embrace moments of reconsideration. Don't worry about deviating from some social obligation of fervently chasing dollars. Changing physical and social environments can be very powerful. If you have some money in the bank then I would highly recommend going to travel on the cheap to some different countries. Learn about where you go, explore. Try to limit the time while you are away spent with people from your own culture. It will help you relax, and stimulate you in new directions. You might even try something new that pops up on the way, and find new directions you might like to consider: Diving. Studying. Teaching. Writing. Art. Picking up a new language. Running a hospitality business. Maybe even someone who gives you a shared direction in life?

Personally I shut my first company in 2009 after getting some recognition from VCs and support from angels, found success working for others for awhile, did a few years of remote, and now - some 7 years later - I'm starting businesses for myself again. It took that long to re-energise. We don't even have our website complete yet, but yesterday just signed our first client for enough money to buy a nice shiny new mountain bike. I plan to let it grow slowly and organically, not stress and to ride that mountain bike at least as much time as I spent in the office coding. Wiser these days.

[cjbprime]

You probably can't really tell whether you want to leave tech forever, or just leave being extremely poorly paid and appreciated for your work in tech forever.

To tell the difference, you might have to take a Normal Tech Job, when you're ready for it.

[ytNumbers]

Take a six month break from computers and the Internet. If you absolutely must, you can check your e-mail once a week, but no further tech than that. During those six months you can vacation (if you saved up some money during your years of coding), or, if you need money to get by, you could work some menial job. After six months, if you feel up to it, you could decide to return to the field of software development. However, I hope you'll resolve to never again work as a software developer for peanuts. It's mentally taxing work that ought to provide you with plenty of money.

[bobsgame]

Spend a year or two getting as strong as you can physically. It is just as important as exercising your mind.

[selmat]

I am 28 and two years ago had similar feelings. I burned out after 6 years working in IT corporate environment in shift mode.

Moving to different area helped me a lot. But same mind-set reoccurred after 3 years and i burnt out again, another moving to different area.

Now I have kids, house with my own workshop where I have environment for creative hobby - woodworking. I can see real result of my job. Beside this I work in IT corporate and have company with on-demand programming services.

I feel it's stable period, with work-relax balance, at least for now.

[nimah]

Don't quit yet, because your judgment is clouded. You sure to regret quitting based on emotion.

  Here is what helping me:

1. Take a break off in the different country. At least for 1 month. I recommend backpacking.

Why?

Everyday task will shock your brain out. Making it hard to think negative thoughts.

And never underappreciate the power of like minded people. They are escaping cubicle nation, too.

2. Try new things, extreme things while you are on holiday.

Why?

You are still shooting for shocking your brain. That's will help.

And here is the other takeaway: your burnout based on missing out on things. Do it now, everything that your old self wanted to try out.

3. Go back to work with different condition in mind.

But, this the big BUT. Write down when you will be quitting before starting again. Think SMART goals here. And I emphasize on writing it down. Clue: Seth Godin: The Dip

4. Are you still in bad mood?

The primary culprit will be one of the following:

- Flexible schedule

- sleep

- your own imagination

- diet

- exercise.

Work to achieve the missing one(s). At this point the diet, exercise and sleep is good because you have been on a holiday. So you might need flexible schedule for the last part.

5. Tweak this. Read books. Meet people, listen to them. Have notes.

6. Repeat.

Your own imagination will take care of itself in no time. Try not to think and go on holiday.

Also, one year from now I would like to read your takeaway, here on HN.

Take care.