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We're Andromium. Making the Superbook, a $99 Android Laptop Shell. AMA

146 points| ajiang | 9 years ago

Hey HN!

There have been a couple HN posts that others have posted about our Kickstarter for the Superbook, our shell that turns any Android phone into a laptop for $99. We didn't see them until fairly late, so wanted to do an AMA, answering questions about the technology, its applications, our production schedule, manufacturing costs (how we can price it so low), or just anything else in general.

Also wanted to put out an open offer to stop by our offices on 5th and Mission and play with the current working prototype (bring your Android phone too!). Just email me at [email protected].

Kickstarter: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/andromium/the-superbook-turn-your-smartphone-into-a-laptop-f

147 comments

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[+] ethanpil|9 years ago|reply
Whats your plan on competing with China copycats, who are no doubt already working on a lower cost clone of your product?

Since its such a great idea, but uses mostly off the shelf parts and doesn't require much specialization, its a perfect target for them.

Look at the patterns: They quickly cannibalize and eventually completely commoditize the market for easy-to-copy products by flooding ebay, amazon, aliexpress, etc with comparable but cheaper items, some of which are probably going to be made by your own supplier/factory in China. Eventually the best of these these get on Engadget or Gizmodo and that's it.

Examples: Android tablets, Google Cardboard, Android Phones, Phone Batteries, etc.

Certainly many will have inferior packaging and engrish manuals. But some will be good enough or better than your product... I would be terrified to base a business around this type of item.

[+] ajiang|9 years ago|reply
Oh man, passed out (it's like 5 AM here in Shanghai). Great question.

The hardware for the Superbook isn't hard, to be perfectly honest. We actually fully expect that we'll have copy cats, and there is absolutely nothing we can do about that. We are at heart a software company, and if you look at the various attempts at doing this, getting the software experience right has been the challenging part. One of the reasons why we price the item low is so that we can get it out to as many individuals as possible. By building up a large user base, we can build the only thing that's defensible here - a great software experience with a sophisticated developer network, building software for the Andromium experience. In fact, we'd actually be pretty happy if someone else built and sold the hardware - and really just got it out there. We can build a big enough business on the software side, owning the home screen for the desktop environment.

[+] adultSwim|9 years ago|reply
Great question. The copycats will be agile (quick to market, quick to iterate through changes) but I imagine their software side would be lacking. Should Andromium be more afraid of Samsung/HTC/etc? Xiaomi? (in between a generic copycat and a Samsung)

With so much data being pushed off devices and onto 3rd parties, I wonder if the real competition is Apple and Google?

[+] Jedd|9 years ago|reply
I have a bunch of possibly naive questions.

I have an Android tablet (Samsung Tab Pro - the 12" beast). An experiment at replacing a laptop on some outings. I bought the A$140 Logitech keyboard / cover, which is good but not great, with some keys being a bit recalcitrant.

Some UI features are frustrating (example: alt-tab brings up the alt-tab switcher - you need to alt-tab twice to move to the most recent process, and toggling between two or three apps on the top of the stack is a common use case for me if I'm trying to do Real Work). An Android problem, I concede.

Given that context - how good is the keyboard, and how are you shipping keyboard + screen at less than a Logitech keyboard - I know, retail, scale, brand mark-up, two years later, etc ... but nonetheless?

Does the app smooth out some of the frustrations (f.e. the alt-tab problem) of working with Android with a keyboard & mouse as though it's a real grown-up DE? Is the app going to offer an increasingly customisable experience, or does it defer to the phone's native Android (and skins) features?

How does it feel - I know you're biased, but have you tried some phones that it just doesn't work on, and/or have some benchmarks or recommendations? I'm on an original Nexus 5 - which still performs adequately, but with low expectations on a phone interface - how well would it drive the Superbook?

[+] ajiang|9 years ago|reply
Yea totally - trust me when I first started on this, I had a lot of the same question.

Keyboard: Think of the keyboard of your standard Chromebook. That's the keyboard. We have to use off the shelf, component parts that are fairly common in order to keep costs low.

Screen: Basic screen is a TN 768p. It's not fantastic, but at a 11.6" screen size, it's fine. For an extra $30, you can get the IPS 1080p upgrade. They're pretty solid.

Keyboard / Mouse / Alt-Tab frustration: Yep. Our software mainly spends a lot of time making the experience of using keyboard and mouse decent. We do take on a number of the phone's native features, but desktop experience optimization is why we built our app - it's the missing software link. For those of you with tablets and usb mouse / keyboard that want to give it a try, test out the beta: play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.andromium.os&hl=en

Phones that don't work: Yea, definitely lower end phones, phones with <2GB RAM run a little rough. There are still a bunch of software features to add / fix / optimize. It still has a bit to go before we hit full desktop parity. We see this as a software problem that we just need to spend a bunch of time on.

[+] fsiefken|9 years ago|reply
Hi Jedd, I don't think it's possible yet but RemixOS is an Android based OS running on both intel and arm that makes Android usable with keyboard and mouse. The same goes for ChromeOS. Both are running on Arm hardware. Another option is to install Linux Deploy on Android, install a Linux distro and view the display by connection with vnc, X or framebuffer to localhost. Even though pricey, an Acer Transformer T300 (wintel) as tablet and computer gets the job done as well.
[+] ajiang|9 years ago|reply
I'm serious about the offer to visit our office. We know Kickstarters have a bad rap for vaporware that takes forever to deliver. You can visit and play with our working prototype. You can try our software beta on your Android phone. And if you're in Shenzhen next week, you and I can kick it at one of the CMs we're looking at (currently in Shanghai myself).
[+] brudgers|9 years ago|reply
I think one of the reasons for the reputation is that in order to attract funding, the price has to be highly competitive and the features have to be remarkable and it's hard to one, let alone both with hardware [with software the price is easier because free to use is possible since revenue can come from advertising and data sales and subscriptions].

I think another reason for the reputation is that crowdfunding is often a necessity when there is a lack of sufficient capital to carry out the project to completion. For hardware, with long lead times and multi-level supply chains lack of sufficient upfront working capital. The attractiveness of crowdfunding when faced with working capital shortfalls means that projects likely to run out of money are more likely to wind up with overly optimistic pre-sales pitches on crowdfunding sites.

Which leads to my question: Since crowdfunders are investors, is there a place where prospective investors can see the full company financials including cash on hand, operating expenses, accounts payable, receivables, and all the other documents that due diligence would suggest?

[+] mattmaroon|9 years ago|reply
As someone who has been burned on about 50% of Kickstarters, I find it totally underwhelming. There's a 50% chance I save like 20%, and a 50% chance I lose 100%. Bad expected value for sure.

Your making an effort to combat that perception is a good move.

[+] tuxguy|9 years ago|reply
+1 for a community meeting in bangalore, india : you will get a very eager test audience (both quality & quantity :D)
[+] ajiang|9 years ago|reply
Hijacking my own comment to say that it's 1 AM in Shanghai. This has been awesome. I'm taking a nap!

Will be back on in a couple hours to answer any remaining questions. Thanks HN.

[+] franciscop|9 years ago|reply
Hi I love the superbook. However I totally feel like calling 11.6" a "Large screen" is a stretch. Is there any plan to bring an actually middle-sized screen such as 13.3"? If there was a 13.3" 1080p screen I'd buy it right now.

PS, would love that it was backlit, that is literally the only complain I have with my Asus UX305CA

[+] ajiang|9 years ago|reply
Yep, it's marketing - can't deny that. You wouldn't believe how easy it is to fail at Kickstarter and how important preparation and good marketing is.

Yes, we've gotten a ton of good feedback that people are willing to pay for a premium version. If we hit the 2.5M stretch goal, backlit will be a possibility :). We like it, but we also did a survey of our backers that said ~50% would pay for it.

[+] outdooricon|9 years ago|reply
You mention that you can write code on the Superbook, but I've yet to find any good ide in Android. Any plans to create or partner with someone to get something like Atom running in Andromium/Android? Do you have a particular favorite that you always use right now?
[+] nathcd|9 years ago|reply
If you're a terminal person, definitely check out Termux[1], it's really, really good (Android 5+ only, however). For a text editor, I really enjoy Quickedit[2]. But I'm not aware of any decent quality IDEs, either. Personally, I'm really hoping Blackberry knocks it out of the park at some point with an Android phone with PKB. I do a lot of traveling, and Termux (with ssh, vim, go, tmux, fish, etc.) would handle 99% of my computing needs if I had a good keyboard. (But I'm not willing to get a phone without a removable battery, and I don't see BB going back to that anytime soon.)

[1] https://github.com/termux/termux-app [2] https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.rhmsoft.ed...

[+] ajiang|9 years ago|reply
YES! We want to. Please reach out to us Atom guys. We're working with some friends working on a cloud IDE, but this is an area where we admit theres a gap in software. We intend to close this gap.
[+] benologist|9 years ago|reply
https://c9.io/ can be self-hosted, it's a pretty powerful browser-based IDE.

Where I find Android (and iOS) imho falls behind vs. desktops is the web browser, working without the Firebug-inspired tools and inspectors that ship with browsers today is a big ask! Firefox supports extensions on Android which might mitigate that.

[+] leojg|9 years ago|reply
I'm also interested in this. Do anyone knows how something like eclipse che would work in this?

Do you think this will be a viable alternative for coding while traveling and dont have a laptop?

[+] talideon|9 years ago|reply
Not an IDE, but you should really check out Termux.
[+] daveguy|9 years ago|reply
How well does it work without Andromium? For instance:

Can I enter directly to the phone with the keyboard? Does the phone screen show on the large screen without Andromium? Is the large screen a touch screen?

Even more important -- if I have a rooted/virtual machine instance of a standard Linux distro running on my smartphone, can I use that? Do I have to use Andromium if I have a setup like a rooted chromebook? Turning the smartphone into a laptop it seems the biggest limitation would then be the app store. I don't want it to "feel" like a computer. I want it to be a computer -- OS and all.

One final question. What is your privacy policy, open vs closed source and permission requirements for Andromium and why?

This is a great idea, but I am raising a serious eyebrow at the Andromium aspect of it.

[+] daveguy|9 years ago|reply
A few items that would make me buy two $200+ versions of this:

Video extension for multiple monitors. For example the ability to plug my phone into a dual monitor setup for coding.

A 13" primary monitor.

Touchscreen on the primary monitor for those annoying times when you forget it's not touchscreen.

USB ports on the device so I can plug in a wireless mouse and keyboard.

Standard Linux OS virtual machine or rooted a la chromebooks.

Then I would carry my phone between home and work and plug it in both places. No more need to carry a laptop. You could pick one of them up and take it with you for travel. That would be beautiful.

I currently tote my 13" laptop around and plug in an extra monitor and wireless usb mouse/keyboard at the endpoints.

[+] ajiang|9 years ago|reply
Real talk on limitations: really intensive apps will be hard to run in Andromium. Also, phones with <2GB RAM will run into latency issues. Most apps will currently run in full screen mode, with only those with our SDK included having resizing / multi-window capabilities.
[+] wiredfool|9 years ago|reply
Is it plausible that this could work with a raspberry pi?

Or hell, even as a tty/dumb terminal for a random linux box?

[+] ajiang|9 years ago|reply
Haha..keep it a secret: http://imgur.com/PViKxMD

Actually have only sneaked this to our commenters. Will do an update to everyone soon...

[+] tmzt|9 years ago|reply
I'm interested in the second one? Is there any way to run code on the DisplayLink-like chip? Would a dedicated CPU module with 2G+ ram be an option?
[+] franciscop|9 years ago|reply
Another question, how does it all work internally? Is it just an USB Hub? Would I be able, for example, to connect my main Laptop to the Superbook and use it as another screen+keyboard+mouse?
[+] logfromblammo|9 years ago|reply
What I want is to sit in my recliner at home, and put one device--that includes monitor, keyboard, speakers, and mouse--into my lap, with one shared cable--for USB, audio, video, and power--running down to a MiniITX shoebox on the floor next to my chair.

Can Superbook do that, with any combination of commodity cable adapters?

I want to turn a large self-assembled home computer into a laptop, not just my phone. That is, something with a powerful processor and dedicated high-resolution video hardware. I think you probably know what I'm getting at, here. I want to put my feet up and play 3D games with WASD+mouse, without juggling all the human interface devices in my lap or building my own custom swing-arm stand for them. Right now, I can handle a regular laptop and wireless mouse, but if the monitor is not affixed to the keyboard, it all falls apart. More specifically, the monitor falls over.

So will Superbook be able to connect with DisplayPort/HDMI in addition to connecting the human interface devices through USB? If not, extra bonus stretch goal?

[+] tikumo|9 years ago|reply
Already bought the Nexdock..

I would really like to see a slot for the phone, like the old Asus Tablet where you could insert a telephone in the back.

[+] ajiang|9 years ago|reply
That's cool! We're big fans, and Nexdock is great for Windows mobile phones. We are not compatible with Windows mobile phones at all.

The slot is interesting, but makes it hard to fit with every phone. One of the biggest challenges of Android is the fragmentation across devices, OSes, and experiences. We wanted to make this accessible to ALL Android devices, so that's why we opted for the side mount option instead.

[+] ajiang|9 years ago|reply
By the way, the one thing I will say if you want to use your Android phone as a laptop is that there's a major difference in using USB vs. using casting. Aside from the latency issues of casting, you can only send video screens in casting -- and you have to buy the casting device. Android devices typically don't have a video out, so outside of using USB / DisplayLink, the experience is really poor.
[+] type0|9 years ago|reply
Does my phone needs to have MHL (Mobile High-Definition Link) to be able to connect it? or how does it work via USB?
[+] nomanisanisland|9 years ago|reply
Wouldn't have been possible to put a slot inside the keyboard dock where you could insert your phone and close it inside?

Not an Ubuntu touch expert, but would it be compatible? Just plugging it in and have what ubuntu want to reach? a complete linux distro on the go? If not, are you able to support it?

[+] ajiang|9 years ago|reply
You could, buuuut Android phones are so fragmented that it would be really really hard to do it for every phone and have it be aesthetically pleasing. That's why we opted for the universal side mount option.
[+] bergie|9 years ago|reply
I'm curious about how the Superbook is charged. It seems you're shipping a custom charger, but also somewhere on the Kickstarter it talks about micro-USB. So, would a regular USB charger be able to charge the Superbook, or does it only work with your own charging brick?
[+] ajiang|9 years ago|reply
Great question. The Superbook is charged using a standard micro-b cord. A regular charger works fine. To charge the phone however is a little complex. We have a custom USB-OTG cord for that. The reason is because we need to send data one way and power the other.
[+] qwertyuiop924|9 years ago|reply
Okay: Will you opensource you app?

On a related note, will you have a well-defined API for other apps to have first-class support for this thing?

I think that's everything... ooh! ooh! No it isn't!

You said that the superbook would be suitable for coding. so will you provide any of:

1: A terminal emulator

2: An X Server

3: Emacs

Thank you for your time.

[+] cableshaft|9 years ago|reply
Are there plans to bring the Superbook to retail later at a similar price point (or even just selling off your website)?

I'm tempted to back this but I'm in the middle of a move and some personal expenses so I'm trying to be good and conserve money right now, so it'd be nice to know that the Kickstarter won't be the only opportunity in the next year or two to get this.

[+] ajiang|9 years ago|reply
Please don't worry about it! We intend on having it up for pre-sale + online purchase.