I don't know what society is. I don't think there's been a society for me to contribute to. All of us have our group of friends maybe, and our work life. But the rampant individualism and abandonment of the family unit leads us to no dialogue between peoples. Things just happen and we react to it. Go accumulate money and take vacation.
I can't remember the last time I've seen more than three neighbors within a year time span.
So no, I don't think I'm contributing to society. I'm only a student, after all.
>But the rampant individualism and abandonment of the family unit leads us to no dialogue between peoples.
It's not like that everywhere. I live in a midwest metropolitan area (~230k people), when I walk passerbyers always say hi or wave. People are relatively friendly by default. Yesterday an older lady I'd never met before told me about the pace maker she had put in the Friday before.
I'm rambling, but if you desire a sense of community or whatever there are parts of the US where this is very much a thing.
I agree that there is no society any longer at least in developed countries. With rise of automation, there is no longer 'common good' and good old Communist class morale comes back into force: what's good for the creative class is bad for the working class. They can have a compromise based on force (compromise in speed with which creative class eats working class), but can't really have an agreement.
Im working in automatization. So no!
Im a wrecking ball to societys foundation, im taking peoples jobs away or prevent those from existing in the first place.
I secretly wish this whole Ponzi scheme would come crashing down to bury this nightmare.
I wish i could dress up in some delusional ideology, like others can, that this is for some greater good and 72 virgins after the singularity hits, but logic, that cruel mistress wont allow those too last.
Automatization is one of the best contribution to society that can exit, i can't wait to live in a world where we all acknowledge that not everyone needs to work and we can focus on really important things like NOT reinventing the wheel and spend life on useless jobs.
That is at least if everything (or almost) goes as planned and things like universal income become a reality.
Also, i thought everyone from hackernews thought this.
Haha, you think that's bad?!?! You are moving society forwards enabling faster and faster technological growth. I, however, make software for market speculators. The greater good doesn't even know I exist.
Automation, making it take less work to achieve things, is as close to an inherent good as I can imagine. A political and economic system that turns automation into something that harms people is bad.
If this time is not completely different, automating jobs will have positive benefits for all, esp those working in jobs automated away. Automation has happened continuously since the 1800s and new machines were always feared to take away many jobs (or earlier, e.g. by the mechanical knitting machine in ~1589). Looking at datasets of popular jobs from just a century ago it's amazing to see how many of those ceased to exist and how little we miss them. I'm sure most of the jobs to be automated away are not "dream jobs" that people will miss thoroughly.
Not to say that it doesn't bear risks but there's currently no indication that this time jobs wouldn't be replaced by something better. Just because many think so doesn't make it true, Keynes also firmly believed in the 1930s that we would run out of work and yet I cannot see that anywhere.
Maybe you are moving society to an cyberpunk dystopia, but who knows what you come after that? Maybe after some time this 'new society' stabilize and the world(s) will be a better place.
My answer right now would be a timid yes. But in no way in an impactful way, even to very few, so I still feel I need to work on this regard.
Now, I want to merge this topic with one that comes naturally to HN: startups. I keep feeling like the projects that are for the good make no money, and that the easy money is to be found in negative or maybe irrelevant solutions. I know this is not 100% accurate, and that's why I keep trying to think of projects I can pursue, make a living on, that feel just RIGHT. But hell is this hard.
I work for a company which is owned by a big health insurance company and we make consumer-facing applications. Our products have a varying degree of public benefit from online insurance open enrollment (turbotax for benefits) to provider transparency (find doctors and see how much common services cost).
In general, I'm glad I'm working on improving consumer experience in one of the more stressful human experiences, but I know at the end of the day, I'm still improving the bottom line of a huge company and enabling the propagation of a broken system.
Having things like Juicero exist gives me a little bit of relative ethical reprieve: "at least I'm not wasting a ton of money to make an elitist, wasteful food fad product".
I believe that simply treating others the way we'd like to be treated is a positive contribution to society. Treating others with respect, and trying to keep common places clean already goes a long way for society as a whole.
This is a such a great question. I find it fascinating that 'contributing positively to society' is not necessarily related to; financial compensation, legality or societal status.
Not implying it should of course, many of us don't have the option to choose our jobs too easily. But some of us certainly are in a position to choose a job which pays higher but has less moral standing.
My next door neighbour works for a pay-day loan company, and seems to be well rewarded. I don't know if he considers this question. Another friend of mine moved from accounting into private equity, with much higher pay. Similar to the high-achieving doctors who go into cosmetic plastic surgery.
Is there any incentive to consider your contribution to society?
Assuming of course you mean contributing positively...
I felt that way for dozen or so years I was in our Airforce, less about fighting down under, more about helping out.
But then...
I left for money, now I have a fancy business card, a house, more cars than I can drive at once and habits I couldn't have sustained in uniform, now if I'm contributing, it's not positive, and sleep, it was easier before.
Spending your money on that stuff is contributing. By purchasing a house you contributed to the housing workers. And contribute more property tax. You supported the salaries of people in the automobile industry. You are literally contributing by consuming.
Don't apologize for it. Every idea about society has been tried a dozen times over. Capitalism has the best track record. Some of the worst hell holes on earth had great intentions in the minds of their leaders.
It's a mixed bag for me. I work in children's entertainment and educational apps. While I feel quality fun educational experiences on devices are positive, I also feel like they are contributing to kids getting addicted to these screens at a young age which concerns me deeply. I'm not really sure where to go from here to address these concerns.
Out of curiosity, from someone in the education arena.. Would you think augmented-reality style apps would
be a step in the right direction?
I remember being told it would bring forward the 'outside world' to people otherwise
glued to their phones. But then, I drove past a pokemon go party the other day and
the only difference was they were all stood outside...
Yes! I'm the lead developer for the ground control software for the Mars rovers. The missions are expanding the bounds of human knowledge, and doing my job right means we get more/better science data back from the rovers!
I did for the last couple of years, working in the public sector for GDS. While personal circumstances changed and I’ve gone back to agency life again, I’d recommend digital transformation of government services to anyone who’s a bit burnt out on the steady diet of startups destined to fail and brochureware sites. The USDS even advertise their open positions as ‘tours of duty’: https://www.usds.gov/join#tours-of-duty
I think there are a lot of cases where people (likely yourself) contribute positively to society but don't realize it. There are so many facets to how technology can interact with someone's life during some circumstance. Some of these positive circumstances may not be obvious or frequent- but that doesn't mean your efforts aren't worthwhile or that you shouldn't look at your work from different angles and appreciate your positive contributions. IMO affecting one stranger's life positively is worth celebrating.
Ex. I work on on a social music app[1] in my spare time. From my perspective I'm just making it easy for devs to share music while they work: marginal contribution to society at best. But a little while ago I got an email from a father who thanked me for the building something which gave him the opportunity to reconnect with his daughter across the world. Remembering nice stories like that help keep me motivated and hopefully you can find some nice stories in your line of work as well :).
It is true that contribution can often seem intangible. However, if you lower the cost of goods, or increase productivity in any way, you have helped large numbers of people. Repeat that for 20 years and you have probably helped a few million, or if you are lucky a few hundred million people.
It's funny. I have a philosophy that work at its core should be viewed a generous act for society so work-wise that's all I've cared about doing for years.
And yet, I've found it hard to actually contribute positive tangible things. The only thing that philosophy has brought me is a kind of smugness about my unnecessary poverty.
Honestly, the whole experience has given me quite a reverence for capitalism. At it's best, it helps direct a human being toward a path of contribution. There are problems[1] but I think the thing I've learnt is that the task of finding and following through on something that actually contributes to society is hard, and the fact that capitalism makes it easy is kind of amazing.[2] Left to your own devices you tend to massively underestimate the difficulty of whatever scheme you come up with, and burnout/get demotivated without others around you who are doing the similar work.
Ahh well, hopefully I figure how to properly do this "contribution" malarky in the next ten years.
[1] Apart from avoiding externalities, the other major issue is that capitalism serves dollar-weighted humans, and with the current wealth distribution that is vastly different from serving humans.
[2] Find a job that isn't obviously evil. If you succeed, you're probably contributing positively to society.
I work in international development - studying why some developing countries prosper, learning lessons from that, and seeing if it can be applied elsewhere. We do a mix of theoretical paper-publishing and also small policy engagements. Nothing I do (data munging / backend / ops / web dev / bit of data visualization) single handedly saves anyone or improves anything, but I think it helps the people actually working on this stuff, so there's that.
In a way, I am through my work. However it is primarily from doing tickets of people complaining about $feature or $bug or $access_rights. It certainly feels soul-sucking doing it. And most certainly does not feel like positive contributions. But I know that what I work on, many millions of people count on in the end. And my hands are a small part of that.
In the grand stream of things, I've done more actionable and powerful work outside of my job I attend 5 days a week. If I had more time, I could push more innovation in many areas. The money would be nice as well. It's a hard choice, balancing money and time.
I yearn for the days when we finally have UBI or something guaranteeing us the rights to live without being coerced into selling our bodies and minds. Because right now, I feel there's little between me selling my body and mind and that of a prostitute selling theirs. I just don't do sex as work, so it's somehow "better".
And having rights to live for everyone would allow me to work much more in automation tech without the ethical qualms that I am putting many more people out of work - and thusly depriving them of living. Automation tech can work for a limited amount of people (now), or it can work for everyone.
That is heavily dependent on what you think "society" means.
Is it the entire human population of the Earth? Just the people of your own nation? The people in your hometown? Just rich and influential people?
Most of the time, I'm contributing to my own nuclear family by exporting my labor and importing other people's money. And that's "society" enough for me.
Other people can derive some ancillary benefit from what I do, but for the most part, the majority of them have been quite rude to me for no readily apparent reason beyond my general homeliness, so I stopped trying to satisfy them a long time ago.
The only contributions I feel are valuable in the ultra-long term are development in more efficient space launch technologies, space habitats, space propulsion, and ecological remediation here on Earth. But I don't do any of those things, so I don't value my own work very highly. I'm just workin' for The Man, and he doesn't love anybody or help anyone except Himself.
Spent the last 17 years working for a university, writing custom code to support teaching, learning, and research programs. I've written code for projects related to climate modelling, tracking polar ice movement, studying traffic related air pollution, optimizing electrical grid construction in developing countries, helping law practitioners understand collateral consequences, improving counseling for domestic abuse victims, supporting HIV counseling (deployed in a successful study in clinics in South Africa), and teaching world leaders to detect and properly react to pre-genocidal warning signs.
Currently looking for a new gig and wondering whether I'd be able work on shitty adtech and still look at myself in the mirror.
Yes. I'm working to advance technology. Technology creates the economic surplus that makes everything good possible, it is the reason the old aren't starving and children aren't working the fields.
Also, I'm part of a country that has one of the highest standards of living in human history which was built on immense toil over thousands of years by my ancestors and millions of others, which only continues to exist based on mutual support between myself and many others.
I may question the value of what I'm working on at the moment, but I don't question the value of knowledge, technology, and the society that allows me to pursue it.
Like many, I help in a number of small ways I'm sure, and perhaps I've even made a big impact on a few lives for the better, but I can't help but think I should be able to scale up and do more for a far, far greater number of people.
Hell yes, Jacques Fresco and his project Venus definitely fit to this category. They contributes by educating the world the ill effects of current monetary system infers we all are circling our way slowly to destruction. He calls for change to the resource based economy and envisions a great future. It is not an Utopia as many think so. But it is feasible when we push our way to it collectively.
[+] [-] throwaayaya|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] ElatedOwl|8 years ago|reply
It's not like that everywhere. I live in a midwest metropolitan area (~230k people), when I walk passerbyers always say hi or wave. People are relatively friendly by default. Yesterday an older lady I'd never met before told me about the pace maker she had put in the Friday before.
I'm rambling, but if you desire a sense of community or whatever there are parts of the US where this is very much a thing.
[+] [-] anovikov|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] contravariant|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Pica_soO|8 years ago|reply
I wish i could dress up in some delusional ideology, like others can, that this is for some greater good and 72 virgins after the singularity hits, but logic, that cruel mistress wont allow those too last.
[+] [-] samueloph|8 years ago|reply
That is at least if everything (or almost) goes as planned and things like universal income become a reality.
Also, i thought everyone from hackernews thought this.
[+] [-] fhood|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] bbctol|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] lucideer|8 years ago|reply
> I wish i could dress up in some delusional ideology
Sounds a little like Accelerationism[0]
[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accelerationism
[+] [-] dx034|8 years ago|reply
Not to say that it doesn't bear risks but there's currently no indication that this time jobs wouldn't be replaced by something better. Just because many think so doesn't make it true, Keynes also firmly believed in the 1930s that we would run out of work and yet I cannot see that anywhere.
[+] [-] bmomb|8 years ago|reply
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=13696161
Maybe you are moving society to an cyberpunk dystopia, but who knows what you come after that? Maybe after some time this 'new society' stabilize and the world(s) will be a better place.
[+] [-] HD134606c|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mezod|8 years ago|reply
My answer right now would be a timid yes. But in no way in an impactful way, even to very few, so I still feel I need to work on this regard.
Now, I want to merge this topic with one that comes naturally to HN: startups. I keep feeling like the projects that are for the good make no money, and that the easy money is to be found in negative or maybe irrelevant solutions. I know this is not 100% accurate, and that's why I keep trying to think of projects I can pursue, make a living on, that feel just RIGHT. But hell is this hard.
[+] [-] FLGMwt|8 years ago|reply
I work for a company which is owned by a big health insurance company and we make consumer-facing applications. Our products have a varying degree of public benefit from online insurance open enrollment (turbotax for benefits) to provider transparency (find doctors and see how much common services cost).
In general, I'm glad I'm working on improving consumer experience in one of the more stressful human experiences, but I know at the end of the day, I'm still improving the bottom line of a huge company and enabling the propagation of a broken system.
Having things like Juicero exist gives me a little bit of relative ethical reprieve: "at least I'm not wasting a ton of money to make an elitist, wasteful food fad product".
[+] [-] dangom|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] afoot|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dm319|8 years ago|reply
Not implying it should of course, many of us don't have the option to choose our jobs too easily. But some of us certainly are in a position to choose a job which pays higher but has less moral standing.
My next door neighbour works for a pay-day loan company, and seems to be well rewarded. I don't know if he considers this question. Another friend of mine moved from accounting into private equity, with much higher pay. Similar to the high-achieving doctors who go into cosmetic plastic surgery.
Is there any incentive to consider your contribution to society?
[+] [-] cpjfox|8 years ago|reply
I felt that way for dozen or so years I was in our Airforce, less about fighting down under, more about helping out.
But then...
I left for money, now I have a fancy business card, a house, more cars than I can drive at once and habits I couldn't have sustained in uniform, now if I'm contributing, it's not positive, and sleep, it was easier before.
[+] [-] dontJudge|8 years ago|reply
Don't apologize for it. Every idea about society has been tried a dozen times over. Capitalism has the best track record. Some of the worst hell holes on earth had great intentions in the minds of their leaders.
[+] [-] j2bax|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] telebone_man|8 years ago|reply
I remember being told it would bring forward the 'outside world' to people otherwise glued to their phones. But then, I drove past a pokemon go party the other day and the only difference was they were all stood outside...
[+] [-] JetDogRush|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] FLGMwt|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] robin_reala|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jqbx_jason|8 years ago|reply
Ex. I work on on a social music app[1] in my spare time. From my perspective I'm just making it easy for devs to share music while they work: marginal contribution to society at best. But a little while ago I got an email from a father who thanked me for the building something which gave him the opportunity to reconnect with his daughter across the world. Remembering nice stories like that help keep me motivated and hopefully you can find some nice stories in your line of work as well :).
[1] https://www.jqbx.fm
[+] [-] suff|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] Tomminn|8 years ago|reply
And yet, I've found it hard to actually contribute positive tangible things. The only thing that philosophy has brought me is a kind of smugness about my unnecessary poverty.
Honestly, the whole experience has given me quite a reverence for capitalism. At it's best, it helps direct a human being toward a path of contribution. There are problems[1] but I think the thing I've learnt is that the task of finding and following through on something that actually contributes to society is hard, and the fact that capitalism makes it easy is kind of amazing.[2] Left to your own devices you tend to massively underestimate the difficulty of whatever scheme you come up with, and burnout/get demotivated without others around you who are doing the similar work.
Ahh well, hopefully I figure how to properly do this "contribution" malarky in the next ten years.
[1] Apart from avoiding externalities, the other major issue is that capitalism serves dollar-weighted humans, and with the current wealth distribution that is vastly different from serving humans.
[2] Find a job that isn't obviously evil. If you succeed, you're probably contributing positively to society.
[+] [-] makmanalp|8 years ago|reply
[+] [-] occultist_throw|8 years ago|reply
In the grand stream of things, I've done more actionable and powerful work outside of my job I attend 5 days a week. If I had more time, I could push more innovation in many areas. The money would be nice as well. It's a hard choice, balancing money and time.
I yearn for the days when we finally have UBI or something guaranteeing us the rights to live without being coerced into selling our bodies and minds. Because right now, I feel there's little between me selling my body and mind and that of a prostitute selling theirs. I just don't do sex as work, so it's somehow "better".
And having rights to live for everyone would allow me to work much more in automation tech without the ethical qualms that I am putting many more people out of work - and thusly depriving them of living. Automation tech can work for a limited amount of people (now), or it can work for everyone.
Perhaps I'm just an idealist.
[+] [-] logfromblammo|8 years ago|reply
Is it the entire human population of the Earth? Just the people of your own nation? The people in your hometown? Just rich and influential people?
Most of the time, I'm contributing to my own nuclear family by exporting my labor and importing other people's money. And that's "society" enough for me.
Other people can derive some ancillary benefit from what I do, but for the most part, the majority of them have been quite rude to me for no readily apparent reason beyond my general homeliness, so I stopped trying to satisfy them a long time ago.
The only contributions I feel are valuable in the ultra-long term are development in more efficient space launch technologies, space habitats, space propulsion, and ecological remediation here on Earth. But I don't do any of those things, so I don't value my own work very highly. I'm just workin' for The Man, and he doesn't love anybody or help anyone except Himself.
[+] [-] Dayshine|8 years ago|reply
I don't save lives myself, but I help collect the data that's used to do so.
[+] [-] thraxil|8 years ago|reply
Currently looking for a new gig and wondering whether I'd be able work on shitty adtech and still look at myself in the mirror.
[+] [-] elevensies|8 years ago|reply
Also, I'm part of a country that has one of the highest standards of living in human history which was built on immense toil over thousands of years by my ancestors and millions of others, which only continues to exist based on mutual support between myself and many others.
I may question the value of what I'm working on at the moment, but I don't question the value of knowledge, technology, and the society that allows me to pursue it.
[+] [-] afoot|8 years ago|reply
Like many, I help in a number of small ways I'm sure, and perhaps I've even made a big impact on a few lives for the better, but I can't help but think I should be able to scale up and do more for a far, far greater number of people.
[+] [-] hacker93|8 years ago|reply