Ask HN: UK Startups – Are You Thinking of Leaving the UK Because of Brexit?

[julianpye]

UK Expat here living in Munich. Anecdotal, but many companies here (startups and corps) are getting more and more CVs from EU staff of Tech startups in London. Not sure if it's the same in Berlin or other EU hubs. Also wondering if UK citizens would move over to gain extra rights of EU movement when here during the transition.

[vogon_laureate]

Currently developing a free app for UK citizens to relearn medieval methods of subsistence living after the imminent collapse of the economy and our National Health Service. Pro users will be able to get access to horse-and-cart-focused GPS, gamified witch-finding tutorials, an advanced plague management app and outbreak tracker, and an advanced AI-assisted voice app (voiced by Simon Pegg) that shows you how to cure just about anything with leeches. I predict business will be booming. If any VC funders are interested, please send a pigeon to my homestead in Brighton.

[jaclaz]

>If any VC funders are interested, please send a pigeon to my homestead in Brighton.

JFYI, on the new (British) maps under development it will be marked Beorhthelmes tūn AFAIK, whilst on the new (Euro) ones it should be identified as "Novvs Portvs".

[LeoNatan25]

Do you support IPoAC (IP over Avian Carriers)?

[DanBC]

> the imminent collapse of the economy and our National Health Service.

The NHS is already fucked. Loosing all those staff is genuinely going to kill people.

The NHS has already lost 10,000 staff. The training organisations haven't seen more students signing up - some saw significantly fewer.

Hunt's plan to forbid access to A&E unless you've been referred shows how desperate the situation is.

[klokoman]

Proof EU isn't needed, free market will fix everything

[zhte415]

Brighton is a pretty nice place to live.

[alphadevx]

You sir have won the thread ;-)

[dspillett]

There is a significant potential issue that might put off certain types of tech company considering the UK though only indirectly related to Brexit: encryption.

The EU is making motions towards privacy protection (see https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/jun/19/eu-outlaw... amongst other similar proposals) where the UK under May and Rudd seems to be wanting to move towards the China model (if the government can't read it, it is illegal).

If that intent remains then once we split there will be a stark difference that will be of concern to any companies who handle (or intends to handle) private data & communications as it will put off their potential userbase.

I doubt this will make existing companies (including startups) move right now, or in the foreseeable future, but it may make brand new startups consider forming elsewhere or existing EU companies think twice if they were considering some form of a UK branch.

There are other concerns with regard to the unclear future of free trade which will have an effect too. But you have to consider the extra hassle of setting up elsewhere: an entrepreneur living in the UK will experience greater "startup friction" trying to setup elsewhere (as they'll have to move at least some of their life) which might be more disadvantageous in the short term.

If enough technical people move for similar reasons then we'll see a skills shortage that will put tech startups off, but that is a much longer term matter.

I note that you mention "EU staff" not "UK staff" - if you are meaning to specifically exclude UK workers with that wording then the growth of people wanting to move may be due to the apparent glut of racist behaviour in the few months following the vote.

[Sholmesy]

I've been thinking about it for a bit. I'm not affected by Brexit (Commonwealth citizen), but my partner will be (EU/Italian).

I think it's going to be a bit overblown. It's easier for EU tech employees to move their lives, than it is for London tech companies to up and move elsewhere. Because of this, I theorise that there will be an intermittent period where there will be a labor shortage in London, due to lack of EU workers to supplement the demand in London tech. This will balance out with time, with EU companies moving more of their offices out of London.

I think we have started to see this already, at my gig, we have found it quite difficult to get decent candidates through the door, and anecdotally a lot of our better candidates have been from the EU. We are about 50% Londoners, 30% EU, 20% World.

[osullivj]

I'm a UK citizen contracting for London investment banks by day, and bootstrapping evenings and weekends. I'm looking forward to the London labour shortage. Regulatory driven work keeps piling up in banks, Brexit will only add to that, and short supply in the dev market will send contract rates through the roof. And if we get a really hard Brexit, and EU citizens are compelled to leave, then contracting day rates will be stratospheric!

[adwf]

I think there'll be a big rise in near-shore work. I've worked at companies in the past with either direct satellite offices in eastern Europe, or just simple sub-contracting to an outsource firm.

The difference between a team of 6 UK/EU devs living in London, vs. 6 EU devs remote working from Poland isn't that much. It's a little trickier to manage, but is cheaper in terms of living expenses and therefore salary.

So far from Brexit bringing back jobs to the UK, it'll just drive away anything that can be done remotely.

This means that the companies will probably still stay in London, but the jobs will go elsewhere.

[graphene]

(EU national in London) Not at all. I think the doomsday threats are overblown and the negotiating parties will reach a mutually beneficial deal at the 11th hour.

Much more concerned about the possibility of the current Labour party gaining power actually.

[barrkel]

I think the chances of a deal are about 70% and trending lower.

The only fudge that can work at the 11th hour is staying in the EU in all but name; there is no way the EU can agree to something non-disruptive quickly without risking it continuing on indefinitely, which means it needs to be almost identical to what went before. And I don't think the Tories can sell that to either the public or their own membership.

A mutually beneficial deal will never happen; the UK cannot come out of Brexit better than before. Any mutual benefit can only come after the UK has climbed out of a pit scary enough to put off any further risk of countries leaving.

If public opinion on Brexit changes, then it might be different. I don't see that happening yet though, and the risks all seem to be on the downside - painting the EU as intransigent and punishing.

[bonniemuffin]

Yeah, I spent most of last year having thoughts like this about Trump becoming president. He'll never get nominated.... he won't win.... yeah but surely something will happen at the 11th hour, he can't possibly become president, it's too crazy...

And now look where we are. I'm not sure your optimism is warranted. We're living in strange times.

[maxehmookau]

This is wishful thinking, to put it mildly. What on earth concerns you about a labour government?

[pjc50]

> negotiating parties will reach a mutually beneficial deal at the 11th hour

Compare with the situation of Greece. There was essentially very little change in the EU position, and Greece eventually realised they had no leverage and would be worse off outside the EU and had to acquiesce.

The only deals that have a chance of happening are "forget the whole thing, no Brexit" or maybe "Norway" (EEA including free movement, but no voting rights). "No deal" would be a disaster.

And if it's left until the 11th hour plenty of companies will have no choice but to avoid planning beyond that time. Like Ryanair pointing out that they can't take bookings without knowing what legal framework will be in place: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/11/ryanair-chief-mic...

Addendum: this article by Gordon Guthrie, Erlanger and former extremely minor politician, sums up the lack of choice: https://medium.com/@gordonguthrie/no-deal-wont-happen-e185f9...

[merraksh]

(EU national living in UK). I was ambivalent on working at the headquarters (here in Birmingham) or in remote, and actually started looking for a house here.

Thankfully I waited until after the referendum. The ensuing social, political, and economical confusion was convincing enough. I bought a house not far from my hometown, somewhere in southern Europe. I'll move there after some major renovation, some time next year.

I might be biased, but I realized in the few years I lived in the UK that the services, health care, and general quality of life are overall better down there than up here. I obviously have only anecdotal proof of that.

On a positive note, it has been very instructive so far to live in the country where this is happening, and especially in an area that voted in favor of leaving.

[tabletiptop]

> I might be biased, but I realized in the few years I lived in the UK that the services, health care, and general quality of life are overall better down there than up here. I obviously have only anecdotal proof of that.

You said you live in Birmingham. It's not a city known for it's fantastic services, health care, and quality of life. The UK is a very varied place in all of these metrics. I've known and worked with many EU nationals who've come to the UK, lived and worked in one place for a few years, and formed a strong opinion on things. You might not have a complete perspective.

[Jdam]

I'll move to London in about one month from Berlin, because YOLO and they will have a deal anyways.

In addition, those Brexit fears are overblown. UK leaves EU and apparently it's doomsday. Did it ever matter to anyone who considered a move there, that US/Canada/Norway/Israel/Australia/NZ/Switzerland/.. has never been part thereof? Was it a consideration in your decision? I bet it was not.

[robert_foss]

Anectdotally I've heard of ARM an loosing entire team to Brexit. And being forced to open up a micro office in the teams country of origin.

Brexit is real, big players are feeling the pain.

[Boothroid]

If their loyalty is so shallow, let them go, train up some people that aren't so fickle.

[indescions_2017]

That whole region, from Grenoble France through Zurich and into Munich is also just really hot right now. Tens of thousands of world class talented engineers and recent science grads. Coupled with the alpine idyll locales. the general atmosphere of Gemütlichkeit. Who wouldn't want to relocate there! Kinda longing for it myself on this cloudy NYC morn ;)

[Boothroid]

Personally I'm a bit scared of France and Germany what with recent terrorist attacks and mass immigration. Also these areas aren't cheap and Switzerland has a reputation of being pretty closed to outsiders. London obviously has terrorism problems also, but none of the places you mention come close to it in terms of global repute.

[Radim]

Not at all. Especially if the free trade and free movement agreements stay in place, or are expanded (EFTA, Schengen). These are not the same thing as the EU.

In fact, smart businesses will new open offices in UK (outside of EU), just to hedge their bets on the future. Buy low, sell high.

[jimmytidey]

The UK is not in Schengen now, and it would be perverse to try and join, or become associate members of, Schengen after Brexiting.

Being in the EFTA would mean continuing to obey EU legislation, continued freedom of movement and paying money into the pot, ie. everything the Brexit campaign was against.

So, no, those agreements will likely not remain in place. The EU wil not agree to give the UK all the benefits of EU membership without the costs.

There may be other benefits to Brexit, but it will not be the case that Brexit will be good because the UK will negotiate a deal that, of itself, is better than the current deal the UK gets.

[emodendroket]

> Not at all. Especially if the free trade and free movement agreements stay in place, or are expanded (EFTA, Schengen). These are not the same thing as the EU.

Those are pretty big "ifs," don't you think?

[verytrivial]

> Especially if the free trade and free movement agreements stay in place

You appear to be reading different newspapers than I do. They are all reporting "forget it" to these options.

[alphadevx]

> Especially if the free trade and free movement agreements stay in place

But isn't that what membership of the EU gives the UK today? So give up the membership, you give those up to. It's kind of the whole point of the EU.

[wbl]

The UK was never in Schengen and will leave EFTA.

[erkkie]

This is tricky as half of the premise of Brexit was to not allow free movement.

[pvaldes]

Meanwhile in Spain... lots of companies are leaving Catalonia for exactly the same reason. The fear to be excluded from the EU and the permanent feeling of uncertainty

https://www.wsj.com/articles/catalans-to-defy-spanish-court-...

In the last two weeks around 400 big and medium companies (national and international) changed their tax domicile from Barcelona to other Spanish cities (Valencia, Malaga, Bilbao or Madrid). Including the biggest catalonian banks, and six of the seven catalonian companies in Ibex 35.

Could happen the same in UK? Nobody knows, but when it starts other companies will follow. No matter what they say now. If we can learn something from this smaller simulation of brexit is that money hates troubles and can run faster than politicians.

[jarym]

Not because of Brexit itself but more because of how incompetently they're handling it thus far and the implications of that:

1. No certainty that our customers will remain here or that they'll keep buying. We're seeing larger customers slow down spending.

2. No certainty that we can hire the right people from wherever we need to.

3. Little hope that the government will act in a pragmatic, pro-business manner (in fact, red-tape and the corporate tax burden is all but certain to rise for anyone who's not a large multi-national). HMRC (the tax man) are on some crusade to impose some MTD (Making Tax Digital) program and some other disasters on business, tightening up rules on the use of independent contractors, etc. This is not the government showing flexibility, this is the government going about business as usual whilst squabbling over what Brexit means and leaving the economy unattended.

[alexbilbie]

Making Tax Digital's aim is to massively simplify tax returns (including VAT returns) for both individuals and businesses. It's whole aim it reduce time it takes dealing with taxes and give a live overview of tax obligations rather than waiting until the end of the financial year (or longer) to find out what you owe.

I don't understand how any of that can be considered contentious especially as it's been pushed back to beyond April 2019 for roll out?

[alva]

No. The rhetoric and threats are off the scale for both sides at the moment. What gets missed in the (profitable) news din is that UK Gov has all but guaranteed EU folk can stay in the country as before.

This has been reiterated since day one. EU citizens will have a right to stay and UK Gov will do absolutely everything they can to see that through. The only reason they cannot put it to paper yet is they are waiting for reciprocacy from the EU. Once the EU agrees to provide UK in EU with exactly the same rights as the UK is offering them, it will go down in law.

There is so much bluster and threats from all sides. It takes a bit of digging and close examination to see what really is being said and offered.

[m_t]

> The only reason they cannot put it to paper yet is they are waiting for reciprocacy from the EU. Once the EU agrees to provide UK in EU with exactly the same rights as the UK is offering them, it will go down in law.

You have it the wrong way around. The EU negotiation team proposed for all EU nationals (EU in the UK, and UK in the EU) to keep the same rights first, and the UK replied with a much worse deal.

[Steer]

> Once the EU agrees to provide UK in EU with exactly the same rights as the UK is offering them

Will EU do this though? Seems strange to allow UK both to be in and out of the EU at the same time.

[drumhead]

The government and companies based in the UK always complain about skills shortages and how the free movement of people helps to alleviate that problem. They've been saying this for the last 25 years and have done nothing to ease the situation by investing in training or education. Its just easier for them to import staff.

I feel London's a bit like Rome or Athens in as much as were a rich elite living off the back of a massive pool of slave labour, or cheap imported labour in this case.

Brexit is only going to have a short term effect on the tech sector, we'll still let highly skilled labour in and probably give them generous tax incentives to stay personally and at a corporate level.

[seddona]

Anecdotal evidence and mass media will lead you astray, best to look at the numbers. VC investment in the UK since Brexit is ~$2.5B, about 2x that of Germany and 3x France.

[adaline]

I have just moved to Berlin a month ago. If you have no family/other commitments in UK, I feel the threshold of reasons to leave UK has been crossed already.

[ryanackley]

Along those lines, I have always wondered why tech salaries I see advertised for the UK seem so depressed (£40k-£50k) compared to the USA (typically > $100k). Is it because of EU labor mobility? If so, will Brexit push tech salaries up to USA levels?

[taway_1212]

In London, many (most?) experienced people do contracts at £100k+ per year.

[chrxr]

In general cost of living is lower in London than major US cities like SF, NYC, Boston. For example, the cost of rent in SF is on average 30.96& higher than in London. Groceries 62% higher!

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou...

[dboreham]

Salaries were always (since I moved to the US in 1996 anyway...) roughly 2x the numeric value. So your UKP 50K == USD 100K comparison sounds right.

In my experience however this does not translate to actually being twice as wealthy :(

[SideburnsOfDoom]

For one thing, UK employees don't need to fund their own healthcare nearly as much as US ones do.

[gadders]

As well as the factors below, there is a large onshore/offshore sector in the UK. Not sure if this is bigger than the US but there are a lot Wipros, Tata, InfoSys etc in the UK and they move Indian staff to the UK.

[alphadevx]

Funny I always thought the US salaries were inflated, especially for grads. Not sure why they are so high, is it cost of living?

[te_chris]

(UK resident on a Tier 1 Tech Nation visa)

I'm waiting to see what happens. It's already done a number on my relative wealth through the pound dropping, but just going to ride it out for a bit and see how dumb the govt. is in the negotiations.

As others have said, London is so ridiculously international and concentrated with tech experience and that eases my mind a bit, but if they do crash out and things go tits-up I'll seriously look at leaving.

[brango]

Yep I'm thinking of heading to Europe and to be living there on Brexit day. I reckon it'll be a reasonable time for the EU to say "OK, whoever was over here then can stay". I haven't decided where to go yet though.

[ktzar]

I wouldn't consider it now since I'm kind of settled here (house ownership, kids, etc...). Also, the London scene is so international and diverse that I don't think I'd feel at home anywhere else now.

[ENadyr]

Yes, not just because of brexit, but it was what tipped it over the edge for us. Have a few friends in tech who have left UK over the last year, more are planning to leave. We are not moving to Europe though, but to the SF area. We'll keep the R&D here for now (we are a deep tech company), and see how things with the negotiations pan out.