Ask HN: How do I find meaningful work?

[throwawaybs]

I look around and I feel like all the startups are either bullshit or making the world worse off. I've been a software engineer and data scientist. I've worked with machine learning. What should I do next?

I'm sick of working with advertising-based businesses because I believe advertising is convincing people to buy useless shit. I don't want to work in health, because the government and insurance have fucked up the healthcare system, and I don't want to be part of it. I kinda like fin-tech, but it seems at the end of the day about make rich people richer and/or getting poor people to pollute more. I've thought about heading more towards pure research, but I want to know I'm doing something for a good purpose.

I'm also totally sick of the ideological crap at lots of startups. I don't want to have to drink the kool-aid. Neither do I want to work for some large corporate machine.

I want there to be real values behind what I'm working on that I can believe in. Despite claims to contrary, I find the entire business culture rotten to the core. What should I do?

[kevinconroy]

Try the nonprofit world: http://idealist.org/

I used to say "Nonprofits? They aren't doing anything interesting with tech!!"

One day, my wife convinced me to try searching on Idealist just to see if there were any nonprofits doing anything interested with tech. I feel in love with the very first result, got the job, worked my way up the ranks, and am now Chief Product Officer at GlobalGiving.org and I couldn't be happier.

Looking for a shortlist of orgs that I'd recommend? Try any one of the orgs at https://www.ctosforgood.org

[Asparagirl]

This! But you know, starting your own non-profit is a great idea too. I started one this year, and now I get to invent my very own job every day: fighting and sometimes suing the government under state and federal Freedom of Information laws, and rescuing millions of records that I return to the public domain! It's meaningful work that I can do on my own schedule, and it fills a void that no one else was doing. And no dumb-ass recruiter is ever going to beat that.

[ivansavz]

+1 for non-profits with a mission. There are many good projects out there, and they are often can't afford a full-time and experienced devs, so the addition of one competent person could make a significant impact.

You'll definitely experience more higher-level-Maslow-pyramid buzz when working for a big mission than for big dollar.

[jghn]

This. Without stating my employer I rub elbows with people from all the household name cloud vendors and an knee deep in their stuff plus we invent new things where they can't cut the mustard.

It's hard to find but it is possible

[nether]

Really? You don't think that any for-profit companies are doing anything meaningful? That's quite a leap. Surely there are physical products in your life that provide a tangible benefit, thereby making the labor behind them "meaningful." I mean things like your car, your house, your clothes. All of which involve tech these days.

[Freeboots]

hey wow, i use gg a lot :)

[Top19]

One suggestion might be to just work 35 hours a week at a business you find “passable”. The other 35 hours can be dedicated to something that really makes a difference. In fact it’s really hard to find a job that does serious good. Good agencies throughout the world are so low on funds they need volunteers, not workers for the time being.

Since you hate advertising, a not-immediately similar path might be anti-corruption. These guys advertised for help from data scientists a while ago on HN: https://www.occrp.org/

Also Open-EMR, which is a free end-end software for hospitals is also an option. By implementing this software, hospitals save immediately $1 M+ compared to systems like Center or Epic, it’s almost comical. There are lots of statistical packages, so your help could be useful there: www.opem-emr.org

[throwawaybs]

I'd be up for volunteering. I'm not quite sure how to find a good group to volunteer for.

Occrp looks interesting, but it looks working there involves going to Kosovo. Open-emr looks potentially interesting, but I'm not sure how much I care about hospitals being able to make more money. I'm not convinced electronic medical record are actually a good idea.

[acrooks]

I think that the companies delivering the most raw value to the world are the ones that fly under the radar. The 100 person software company that builds a properly meaningful product isn't making the news because it isn't sexy, or because it isn't generating huge cash (like we see in fintech or advertising or social media). And 100 person companies aren't hiring a ton, so you don't always see them on job boards. So I think it is partly a matter of looking really hard, jumping on the perfect opportunity, and staying a while.

The company I work for today builds software for the marine shipping industry that makes people better at their jobs, and cargo ships more fuel efficient. I feel like the work that I do has a legitimate positive impact on the world. Purely because of the work I have done on one of our products, I will forever be carbon positive. I deeply care about the environment so that means a lot to me. Send me an email (profile) if that interests you.

[brad0]

There’s a lot of “I don’t want X” in your text but no “this is what I believe in”. This is the core of your issue.

If you don’t have an ideal you work toward then you will always end up hating your job.

You sound like a smart guy, you just need to take some time and work out what your ideal world would be. When you know what that ideal is then work toward it every single day of your life.

EDIT

I’m guessing you’re someone who has looked to others to make decisions for you from the tone of your text.

You need to start putting faith in your own actions and needs, rather than getting advice from others.

[joeld42]

Don't count on work to be meaningful. You might find it, you might not, but so much in the world of work is outside your control. You're more than your job, find meaning elsewhere: in making art, activism, politics, altruism, building something, family, whatever feels meaningful to you. Let your work support that and don't let it define you. Eventually these may align and your passion and your work will become the same but you can't make that happen.

[phugoid]

I work in aviation safety/training. The most meaningful work I've done is developing code for flight simulators, so that pilots can learn how to handle real-world problems. Sometimes that means modeling data from flight recorder boxes, which is a special treat.

Reading through the list of things you don't like, one thing they have in common is being software-only. Hardware products have a huge impact on people's safety and well-being that might inspire you. Aviation, robotics, medicine, even manufacturing.

[hugocaracoll]

The change from software-only to hardware can have a great impact. That's a very interesting observation of yours.

[bevan]

Research Effective Altruism and check out the 80,000 hours job board.

https://80000hours.org/job-board/

[Jedd]

> I don't want to work in health, because the government and insurance have fucked up the healthcare system ...

Eloquently put, but you don't mention where you live (ie. which government this is). Generally people that don't say where they are when asking these kinds of questions are in the USA - a fair assumption, I'm sure, as 5% of the world lives there.

Anyway, consider that 'health' is big - really big - and isn't just the bits you've seen. I'm confident there are some good efforts being made under that banner domestically that may fit your criteria. Further, if 'the government has fucked things up' maybe consider relocating to a place where things aren't quite so regrettable -- lots of (perhaps 'every other) countries have better health systems than the USA. Useful if it's an area you're genuinely interested in but for local government (mis)management.

[blubb-fish]

I absolutely second your sentiment - 100%. Of course, this is not going to resonate well in a forum where the majority is invested one way or another in startups producing what I would also refer to as bullshit.

Defining the term bullshit is a bit difficult though in this context. But one definitely can categorize a product or a project into "attempting to improve society and environment" and into "creating incentives to consume more".

I think ML and data science driven political and legal investigations is an interesting field. The only downside is that companies or organisations in those areas usually pay less.

But I would love to do work for Greenpeace or Human Rights Watch or similar projects as opposed to my IT position in ad industry. But it feels odd to voluntarily accept a low wage for that. I guess I will give it a try sooner or later - at least for a couple of months.

[16961714b]

This might sound cheesy, but first of all: Know yourself.

- What are your values?

- What do you stand for?

- What do you want in work and life?

A design thinking approach, how to find a meaning in your work (and life) is through a simple 3 step process, provided by Burnett and Evans (http://designingyour.life/ or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SemHh0n19LA):

1. Get curious

2. Talk to people

3. Try stuff

Simple as that...

Nevertheless, I think that work defines us and it becomes our identity (e.g. Joseph the Carpenter, Bob the Builder), but at the same time there is so much more in you than just work. From what you are writing, I could identify what you don’t stand for and don’t want :-) this realization is a good starting point. However, now is the time to get curious, observe, reflect and start choosing your battles wisely, because you might wake up one day and realize that all you have been doing is wasting your time and energy on fights you didn’t actually care about that much… And this is precisely why it helps to know yourself, know your values, what you stand for, your talents and strengths, and maybe even your vision or dreams of how would you like to live in the future, and how would you like the world to look like in the future… Knowing this, I think, would allow you to focus your energy on something that is meaningful for you. Because meaning exists only in your head. So whatever we do, whatever happens in the world or the universe is meaningless per se. The meaning is interpretative. You create and give meaning to whatever you do, or whatever happens to you or in the world.

> but I want to know I'm doing something for a good purpose.

I think, you can never know in advance whether the purpose turns out to be “good” or “bad”, here is a little illustration of that :-) https://www.conures.net/stories/horse.shtml

[fecak]

1. Identify causes that truly interest you.

2. Make yourself look like a strong candidate on paper.

3. Search for companies that are focused on the causes you care about.

4. Reach out directly to the appropriate individuals at those companies. Don't pay any attention as to whether or not they are hiring.

5. In your approach, briefly mention your qualifications but also your interest in the organization's mission. Mention the latter first. Make it clear to the recipient that your message was written exclusively for this organization.

[NumberCruncher]

Get married and have children. Make them happy and let them grow to happy adults. Or adopt children who weren't lucky enough to born in a happy family.

Start an own company, treat and pay your employees well that they can provide a happy and secure life to their children.

[bdcravens]

It's almost like you can derive joy outside of the characters you punch into an editor :-)

[hw]

As others have and would point out, going out on your own and doing something you _want_ to do will be one of the real ways to work on what you want to work on, unless you're not keen on the overhead that comes with entrepreneurship.

It'll take time to find a company that both exudes the same values as you and is in a domain that you enjoy working with. More often than not you get one but not the other.

Usually what I would do when evaluating a company, is ask if I'd ever want to spend my weekends contracting / part-timing / volunteering for that company. If you have a M-F 9-5 job and are looking forward to the weekend with that company, then it's a good step in the right direction.

Then meet with the team and talk to their employees both while on an interview or if you can get one or more of them out on an informal coffee or meal to talk it would help too. Plenty of times interviews are too official, too rigid and pre-meditated to truly gauge the culture of the company/team.

You might end up jumping around a few times before you find something you like, but the important thing is you find something you like, instead of droning on at a big tech company or startup where you reap the benefits financially but suffer emotionally and psychologically.

[sebg]

1) Go to your local job board. Here in the us, I recommend indeed.com or https://angel.co/jobs

2) For your local and particular interest get a list of potential jobs

3) Do a pairwise comparison between first two jobs. For these two jobs and only these two jobs, which you would prefer to do in your current state. Ignore qualifications or everything else, if you were given the choice of starting only one of those two jobs tomorrow, which would you choose.

4) Then do a pairwise comparison between second two jobs

5) Keep doing this for at least 10 minutes

6) Now you have a list of potentially attractive jobs for you.

7) For this list you compiled, do this process again.

8) Then once you've made it through all of those, do it once more.

9) By the third time, you will have chosen some jobs 3 times over other jobs. So you're task now is to look deeply at all of these jobs that won 3 times and try to figure out what is in common between all of them.

10) Once you have some of those clues, go back to step 2 and try searching for more jobs that have those key-words and/or criteria you found in step 9.

What you are doing here is to force some sort of revealed preferences for your self based on currently available jobs. You aren't trying to solve the "what you should do next", you are trying to solve the what interests me enough that I would do it over something else. With enough research you'll have a few more ideas of what roads you should be exploring.

[throwawaybs]

I've been going there, and thinking I want to work for any of these companies.

[rl3]

You sound like quality founder material. I mean that: a lot of good innovation comes from people who simply loathe how something is currently done and want to improve the situation by doing it right.

Have you thought about starting your own business? It doesn't necessarily have to be a startup; lifestyle businesses are just as valid a path. That said, startups do unfortunately require you to drink your own Kool-Aid to a degree. They do not however require you to foist bullshit upon your employees, which most founders unfortunately do anyways.

Of course, founding isn't for everyone. It's hard, and there's a lot less guarantees involved than working for someone else. It may not even be a possibility given your current life situation, I don't know.

[bdcravens]

> I'm sick of working with advertising-based businesses ... I'm also totally sick of the ideological crap at lots of startups. I don't want to have to drink the kool-aid. Neither do I want to work for some large corporate machine.

Work in health care. Lot of work there building apps that support clinical trials, etc. Probably a lot of ways you could apply your data scientist hat.

Work for a small company that creates a real product or service. That means you might have to look outside of the typical startup world and may lose all the coolness that goes with, but it sounds like you're over all that anyway.

Do your own thing. Training, consulting, etc. I'm sure you have an idea burning in your mind, like we all do.

[prosthetics]

What about designing software for prosthetics? Seems like that could make a huge difference in people's quality of life.

[vassilevsky]

Prosthetics and implants are the coolest shit

[rvijapurapu]

I moved from being in a software only world where I couldn't see the benefit of my work, to one where I see my work being used on a daily basis. I find the sense of helping people and improving their lives oddly satisfying.

I do acknowledge working with non-technie teams is frustrating to start with, but once you bring them to learn the benefits it becomes pleasurable.

[Mz]

I want there to be real values behind what I'm working on that I can believe in. Despite claims to contrary, I find the entire business culture rotten to the core. What should I do?

Have you considered seeking employment with organizations working in extremely distressed parts of the world, like refugee camps?