Ask HN: High functioning alcoholism – anyone?

[alcoholicornot]

Hi,

I'm in my mid thirties, rather accomplished, with a very good job (tech) that I like, family with 2 kids etc. I drink way too much however and I fear I'm already borderline alcoholic. I've recently found this 'high functioning alcoholism' term and realized this is me. Which scares me a lot. I do know people that drink a lot in my family (I'm from eastern Europe...) and until recently I've never considered myself similar to them. For the record, I'm drinking on average 5 evenings per week, between half and a full bottle of wine (which is not that much, certainly I got used to it, so it doesn't put me in the drunk mode neither).

I keep an 'inner scorecard' which means I evaluate myself against what I used to be, and what I think I can accomplish (did I perform / accomplish something up to my potential, or did I just did a half-ass effort). Funnily enough, I always somehow discarded alcohol as a factor, justifying it (to myself) that it's not that influencing. Which is of course false. I should add that I work in the evenings very often (I love what I do btw) and most of those time, I drink too when working.

What made me realize this problem much more efficiently was running. I started quite recently and did some tests - how I perform, with the same training scheme, with and without alcohol for a period of time. Numbers don't lie. I run much better and also feel better.

As to why I'm drinking when I'm working alone, I don't really know (other than I like the taste). Not necessarily to forget problems or something. With perspective, this amounts to huge chunks of time, which certainly impacts my work on side projects / business. Sometimes I think I drink because I'm scared to actually succeed with this side stuff, and somehow unconsciously I sabotage myself.

Are / were you in this situation ? If you managed to stop, I would appreciate the 'how'.

[chatmasta]

Your situation is not as bad as many. It sounds like your problems mostly originate internally, rather than being the result of external pressure. It’s not like your friends are calling you up every day for a bottle; you’re drinking alone. So the only person you need to say “no” to is yourself (granted that might be harder than saying no to someone else).

What works for me dealing with addictions / bad habits is to turn the habit around on itself. Start thinking of it negatively, derisively, until you hate it so much you’d be embarrassed and disgusted to engage with it.

Beyond that, find a way to get a dopamine hit from saying “no” to yourself. Relish the control it gives you. Personally when I say “no” to friends engaging in some illicit but fun activity, it feels good. I feel like I accomplished something just by saying no. That’s a powerful motivator and a critical element of developing the positive feedback cycle necessary to break a habit.

[davymac]

I would add be careful with cutting off cold turkey (it depends on how dependent you are physically). Also, while tapering down, develop good “healthy addictions” to replace it with. Many times exercise and CBT is enough. Try that first. Expect depression to kick in. If you feel the need to return to booze even with those changes, medication may Be needed as you may be self-medicating, although your description sounds fixable without it.

[levimaes]

I signed in just to upvote this! I hope someone can use it! Quiet and thankless internal discipline is highly rewarding, whereas the powers outside yourself (like excessive shopping, gambling, video entertainment, sex).... Well, they all make bank off of your diverted attention or indulgence. I admit I'm already being preachy, but I think what the basic abstract theme that "chatmasta" is disseminating is the same valuable theme that brought Tesla's genius to into the stratosphere -- albeit in his case with an early, rigourous start, and over the course of decades.

[DanBC]

Current UK drinking guidelines are that you drink no more than 14 units per week.

750 ml of wine at 12% = 9 units per night. 9 * 5 = 45 units per week.

That's considerably more than the guidelines.

With excess drinking we tend to talk about problem drinking (drinking a bit too much); harmful drinking (drinking enough to cause harm, and you're certainly doing that) and dependent drinking (drinking enough to have a physical addiction).

It can be dangerous to -without supervision- stop drinking if you have a physical dependency.

Here's what you should expect from English treatment for alcohol misuse: https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg115

Here's an interactive flowchart: https://pathways.nice.org.uk/pathways/alcohol-use-disorders/...

You need, and deserve, medical advice. Please go see a real professional.

[lomnakkus]

Hang on, I recall reading somewhere that the national guidelines for "acceptable" alcohol consumption are mostly made up and arbitrary? Or have they suddenly found a more scientific basis for them within the last few years? Don't they vary widely for nations with similar demographics?

I should say that I obviously agree that drinking alcohol is probably never the solution to any problems and may cause further (health or otherwise) problems, I'm just interested in the basis for this particular claim. Your comment was very valuable -- esp. with regard to how dangerous withdrawal symptoms can be.

[DanBC]

Edit:

Here's some advice from the English NHS on how to reduce alcohol use:www.nhs.uk/Livewell/alcohol/Pages/Tipsoncuttingdown.aspx

the problem of talking about addiction is that you can be causing severe harm well before you have a physical dependency.

Harmful drinking is over 14 UK units per week.

A hospital based medically supervised withdrawal will happen at maybe 20 or 40 units per day.

Obviously there's a big gap in between where harm is being caused but you don't yet qualify for hospital based detox.

Help for problem drinking can be hard to access, and the evidence base for some of them are not great.

But for this kind of harmful drinking it's important to get help to cut back now, before it develops into dependent drinking.

Some things you can try: only buy wine on one day a week. Start by only buying two bottles. Ration those out. Have a calendar, and mark out when you're going to drink alcohol.

Switch to lower ABV (alcohol by volume) wine.

750ml of 8% ABV wine is 6 UK units.

750ml of 12.5% ABV wine is 9.3 units.

You can find very low alcohol wines too.

[phugoid]

I was in a similar situation for years, and alcohol was the lesser of my intake problems. I was drinking mostly to stave off boredom; let's call it being comfortably numb.

What eventually helped was getting serious about playing music - practicing every night. I can't practice if I drink. I was excited enough about music that gave me an escape from boredom.

A few years later, I decided to start a part-time online Masters degree, and I'm excited enough about that to keep me from of boredom's abyss. It also fills most of my spare time.

I guess I replaced drinking with something that addressed some/most of the underlying cause. Also important to package the change as something positive; _start_ a degree is more motivating than _stop_ drinking.

[chrstphrhrt]

This is the best method.

[hguhghuff]

5 nights a week half a bottle of wine isn't an alcoholic. It's drinking too much.

If you're at a bottle of wine s night that's certainly too much.

You've got a poor habit that's all. Just put a system in of deferring first drink, going to bed s bit earlier i.e. Before the last drink, and ensure you have a glass of water and a cup of tea between each glass. That'll reduce the amount you drink by s glass or two.

You're fine.

My good friend, who IS an alcoholic, drinks a 750ml bottle of vodka in a night.

[mamon]

Alcoholism isn't defined in terms of how much you drink, but how much control you have over your drinking. If OP thinks he has a problem with drinking too much then probably he does have a problem.

[dazc]

As someone who drank a bottle of wine every night for 2 years flat, I totally agree.

There is a world of difference between having a drink habit and being alcoholic.

Now I can go for months at a time without touching it. The trick for me is not having it in the house. Getting plenty of exercise helps a lot, if for no other reason than it gets me outdoors and breaks up the routine.

[prawn]

Hopefully the central part of your comment isn't lost amidst the rest of the discussion as I think it's realistic and practical advice:

"Just put a system in of deferring first drink, going to bed s bit earlier i.e. Before the last drink, and ensure you have a glass of water and a cup of tea between each glass. That'll reduce the amount you drink by s glass or two."

Have less wine/alcohol easily accessible in the house. Make sure alternatives are readily at hand (e.g., large water glass and jug for refills on your desk). Try to get into the habit of drinking a full glass of water before you next top up your wine glass. Never fill your wine glass beyond a certain point. Maybe try to find half-bottles so it's less likely that you drink more than half a bottle in a night?

[yabatopia]

It's not just the consumption and how it affects you. You also have to consider the effect of your alcohol consumption on others, especially your significant other, kids, family or friends.

Maybe you're feeling fine with one bottle of wine every night, but I highly doubt your partner or kids feel the same way. You may not notice it (because your intoxicated, after all), but a bottle of wine does affect your behaviour. Forgetting things, repeating yourself, being annoyed more quickly, incoherent stories, some verbal aggression... all minor things you may not notice, but the people around you do. And they don't like it.

[Boothroid]

I try to steer clear of anything apart from average strength (~4%) beer. It's far harder to get through equivalent quantities to a bottle of wine and your margin of error between happy and drunk is that much greater. Also if you do homebrew you might develop a more holistic relationship to beer, although its certainly tempting when you have a 36 pint barrel sitting around at home.

[soulnothing]

I've had several interesting bouts with alcohol. I've flirted with that line of high functioning alcoholic. Because it's one of the few things that alleviates my migraines.

I've gone dry for several periods of my life. I've actually spent more time dry. What brings me back around, is increase in migraines. Which usually goes hand in hand with stress levels. At work we have a full stock bar. I was at the point I had to take drinks several times a day, just to keep from exploding. That's where my line of, I'm an alcoholic or very close to that point. I need it too function, and get through the day. But at the same time I can look at my life, and say I only drink heavily during small portions of my life. You have to give yourself small wins on occasion.

I tried stopping this year. But that didn't really work out. Again stress, and disdain for my job and long hours. So I cut back from a bottle every other night. To one a week, to one every other week. To finally, just two singles when I'm out with my friends.

Taking a while to get here. But cutting/reducing. Depends largely on what works for you. Or why you're drinking. The two other times I went dry. I just flushed all liquor down the toilet, and said nope. I can't do that now, and I found beating my self up over relapsing. Led to a further spiral.

So I gave myself a very strict budget for alcohol. I loaded up a visa card, and it was enough for two mid-range bottles. That was the first step. Slowly weening off that dependency. Then like you I enjoy the taste of a nice cocktail. So I switched to teas, and sparkling water at night. There's a lot to be said for a nice mock tail. For the first few weeks, when I went out. I left my debit cards at home. I brought enough cash for two drinks. So at a more difficult time in my life. I need to be more stringent with myself. I know I can't stop right now, despite wanting too. But as noted count the small wins. How you curtail this is dependent on each person.

[radicalbyte]

My father in law was the same until he was diagnosed with liver cancer three years ago. I never really knew him before then because he was always drunk.

By high functioning you mean you sit in the corner getting drunk every evening whilst ignoring your wife and kids? Fighting with them on a regular basis because you're sozzled?

Since then hasn't touched a drop and I've got a father in law. My children have got a grandpa.

He deeply regrets the time he missed with his kids, but luckily has been able to spend a lot of time with his grandchildren.

I understand where it comes from - kids are hard work and you need a coping mechanism to survive the first couple of years. Yours is alcohol, mine is sweet food (so I'm too fat), others smoke.... maybe we should try collecting stamps instead? :)

[hacalox]

I don't think he is like your father in law, not even close. He drinks way less than your father in law, and he is having this concerns because of people like you. You are judging him like he is drinking a bottle of vodka every day.

To the OP, don't worry. I'm from Spain, and hey man, you are totally fine. Drinking 5 nights a day? Half bottle of wine? And you call that drinking? Not really, come on vacation to Spain and you will see that's totally fine, no one is missing their duties for having 2 or 3 cups of wine when having dinner. Even my mum drinks more than that :P be positive.

I think your problem is not that you drink much, is more about you might feel like you can't quit drinking. Like others have said, I would suggest you purging yourself or quiting on drinking for a short period of time so you can feel you can control your drinking and not the other way around.

[timthelion]

I would like to second the "think of the children" argument. My father drank a similar amount and also said "(which is not that much, certainly I got used to it, so it doesn't put me in the drunk mode neither)". But he was irritable when he drank, and I remember playing a game where I'd come up and talk to him, and then run away laughing as he chased after me and knocked into the furniture.

It is easy to think you're sober when you're drunk.

[Quequau]

I drank for years and years thinking I was "high functioning". I quit drinking using Naltrexone, following the "Sinclair Method". In my opinion it's a far more rational and reasonable treatment program as compared to AA's 12 step (which never worked for me).

[throwaway127831]

I’m currently on month 5 of TSM, and almost never drink. Highly recommend it for anyone struggling. This TEDx talk was what convinced me to try it: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6EghiY_s2ts

Prior to TSM, I was in pretty bad shape — so grateful I discovered it

Using a throwaway account here. Wish I didn’t feel like I had to :(

[sn9]

This 2015 Atlantic article on evidence-based addiction treatments lists naltrexone as one of the alternatives to AA: https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/04/the-irr...

[dvtv75]

The best advice we can provide is only what works for us. Your best bet is to find an experienced counselor who knows what to look for. As much as I wish I could help you, I can't: your reasons for drinking are yours alone, and your concern about your drinking is just as unique. If you need to stop, you can. You have it in you. You might not need to, you might just need some new alone-time habits. Alcoholism is different for each of us.

My father is an alcoholic. He stopped with the help of a drug called Disulfiram (Antabuse), and any time he feels like he may relapse, he starts taking it again. My brother seems dependent on alcohol, but doesn't binge drink like our father used to.

My partner believes she may be an alcoholic. Up until last year, she was drinking three 400ml cans of beer on average, five or six nights a week, sometimes that and almost a whole bottle of port. What made her quit drinking was the time she told one of her close friends that the friend and I should sleep together. Months later, then she tried to kiss one of her (female and straight) work colleagues. Her effort required to stop was significant, partly because she was raised by a habitual alcoholic mother who though nothing of forcing a beer into her hand.

Personally, I am not an alcoholic. My poison is escapism - video games, movies, even music. I'm stuck in those worlds, to the point of not sleeping until after 2am some days. I crawl into a game - say, Ghostbusters, Assassin's Creed Black Flag, or RimWorld - for maybe 12 or 15 hours a day sometimes, and then realise the whole day has gone by. Just today, I sent five hours playing RimWorld.

In my younger years, I ended up blackout drunk several times a month on and off for a few years. Being honest, which is easy with the anonymity of the interwebs, I often used it so that person I was attracted to would just find somebody else and make things less complicated for me. I have symptoms of autism insofar as I can't read body language or social situations. It's unfortunate that I compounded my problem (loneliness) by driving people away with alcohol. I barely touch the stuff now - I actually can't recall the last time I had a drink. Might be last year, I think.

You already have what you need, what you want now is some help to find it. Good luck. I hope things work out for the best.

[lthnthrow1]

Well, F. A throw away because this speaks more than is should to me.

2 kids, wife, xVP eng job in major public company. 1.5x bottle of whiskey a week, plus additional beers and wines. Maybe not crazy, but a dependency for sure. Looking forward to getting home for a diet and double bourbon, putting the kids to bed and then onto more interesting drinks is a lot of mon-fri is nota great look or feel. I see it, but have not changed it for 8+ months.

The pressure I feel that drives this is from many angles - job transitioning from a small company to a large public in the last year (acquisition) and issues that come from our new parent company not understanding how to merge the 2; high pressure to deliver on acquisition expectations (and escrow the entire company is held to / huge pressure on me to sustain this for us all); general life stress of school searches (big city problem...); lack of "next step" and somewhat bored nature of my day to day.

I'm for sure a natural addict - 3 years of daily heavy weed consumption whilst in a similar tech job (but as junior monkey) and xbox issues in the past. If I don't decompress, I can't find the motivation to continue - that is pretty high for the last 14 years based on constant dollar carrots. If not for 25k a year school fees for 2x kids, I might be more relaxed on this, but its worse than a mortgage!

For the op, I have managed to launch a few side projects during this. A kickstarter with a friend that hit its goals and shipped on time one of the more surprising issues. However, I'm not able to move into something more meaningful (aka new startup) under the booze umbrella - I feel a motivation is needed here that is essentially a "co-founder" vs any drinking epiphany and then all will balance out again.

An anonymous website showing what people drink nightly would not help here, just reinforce. Some kind of anonymous ledger demonstrating lifespan longevity or liver state of health would be great.

[pseudocoward]

This is just my anecdote, I don't know how generalisable my experiences are. But in case this is useful:

I used to drink about this much, but I'm not sure I was that high functioning. I finally realised that alcohol was having a significant effect on my mood and motivation levels, even in relatively small quantities. Whilst I probably wasn't physiologically addicted, drinking had certainly become a vicious cycle.

I am cautious of using the term alcoholic, because often that implies a particular treatment (AA) which would have seemed too daunting, I would have had philosophical difficulties with, and would have denied me the pleasure I now get from occasional, moderate alcohol consumption.

There are some signs of negative introspection in your post. For me the first step was simply to become aware of the link between my alcohol consumption and my mood/behaviour. I realised I was doing much more negative introspection in the 48+ hours after drinking (even small amounts) than at other times. As an effect it is less obvious than drunkenness or a hangover, but for me it turns out to be just as predictable. Experimenting with this obviously required me to go without alcohol for a few days at a time. Being aware of the association then allowed me to take my negative thoughts less seriously and break the cycle ("Oh hang on, didn't I drink last night? That probably explains why I'm thinking this way - maybe I won't use booze to unwind this evening...")

It was a gradual process rather than a panacea, because it took time for the better decisions I started to make to filter through to my living situation, my work etc.

[mikey00764]

I was in a very very similar situation, working as a software engineer on highly important safety critical systems I was at the peek of my career and very successful. But I was working way too hard, not sleeping and drinking more and more booze. It was OK but borderline. Then a couple of issues pushed me over the limit, and the booze intake got higher and higher. It took probably 3 years of gradual decline before I had just about shutdown, work was about to fire me and I was in severe mental shutdown. Luckily a friend helped me realise I had a problem, I got help and after a further 3 years I am much better. However it was a close run thing and I think if it had carried on I would have ended up dead. You have managed to realise you have a problem early enough that you can fix it.

[BadMotherfcker]

Hello,

I'll try to make it quick for you: I've been through most of what you've described and my best advice is that you put an end to it. Right away. We're about the same age, work in the same industry and it seems we share the drive to drink. I was in it for more than five years. Always high functioning... Until I couldn't, any longer. The truth is you start getting sloppy with your life. And yes, you lose control of everything. Little by little. Every bit you trust about yourself.

I'm from Portugal. I was the first tech guy in my company, the consitions were harsh when I started there. I already drank quite a lot, at the time. I was single again so I would work like a retard during the day and then drink till I passed out.

I looked at it like some kind of special condition. I left everyone out of it. I was being successful, after all.

Well... Lately, things started to get out of control. I first sought medical help this year, in January. I tried to quit with pills. First with a private Doctor, then with the National Health Service. I went even farther out of control. I went for a 2-week medically assisted detox. The month before was the closest to hell I've ever been. Taking meds and alcohol at the same time destroys you. I was miserable, deeply depressed and unable to do anything. Truly left for dead. Beyond words...

Well... Those 2 weeks changed my life. It's tough, you have to go at it with everything you've got. But after that, everything changes. I've only asked for a drink once, since, but didn't touch it. I'll probably never raise a glass again. But believe me, it's worth it. Everything is 10x more challenging now, in my life, and I love it this way. No longer having to plan my professional, family and love life based on alcohol consumption :)

Seriously, please quit it before you turn to a werewolf. You'll be a lot more immersed in life as an experience.

Best of wishes!

P.S.: I still take two pills a day. And some light weed for relaxing at night, sometimes.

[Mz]

My father drank a lot. He quit after he left the army. I think he drank to suppress nightmares and he was able to quit -- without any kind of program, like AA -- once there was no threat of returning to a war zone.

I also have known people who were apparently drinking to treat some undiagnosed medical condition and drank less or quit drinking after the condition was properly treated.

I think it would help to assume you have some reason for drinking so much. Now you need to figure out why that is and try to solve the underlying problem.

I like the book "The truth about addiction and recovery" as a resource.

Best.

[shshhdhs]

It's unfortunate that this industry embraces alcoholism so much. I've been in your situation for a long time (much worse amounts of alcohol though), but as I grow older I notice the side-effects more, and am worried what I've done to my organs.

I'm trying to cut back myself at the moment, and my wife is helping me by identifying when I've drank 3+ nights in a row -- "do you really need it tonight? give your body a rest". I would encourage you to ask your wife to remind you in a loving way.

[beizhia]

I used to drink a lot, but I eventually came to realize that I wasnt drinking for the alcohol, I was just drinking because I wanted something to drink. I remember back in high school I'd drink soda all the time, and lots of it, which I think was for the same reasons.

I started drinking LaCroix, and its to the point where I'm going through a 12 pack every couple days. I had to start buying the generic brands to save money.

I still drink beer, wine, and whiskey, but not nearly as much as I used to. I think I've saved a lot of money this way too. I also took up running about a year ago, and that got me to stop smoking too, even though that was only like 1 or 2 cigarettes a day, and not even every day. I've been changing up my diet too, and that's had a huge impact.

[bparsons]

This is a good experiment for anyone to do. Order a club soda at a social occasion, and you may be surprised how quickly you forget that you aren't drinking alcohol.

For many, it is just something to do with their hands.

[davidandgoliath]

Seconded!

Recently swapped to sparkling water myself, realized that I was just in pursuit of something to sip on while staring at computers during the evenings when my frontal lobe was exhausted. I even wield various sparkling waters with soda (3/4ths sparkling water, 1/4th coke) to swap up the flavors a bit.

[nunez]

+1 for LaCroix. It’s an excellent substitute for soda, though starting with diet soda might be an easier transition.

[dplgk]

Note that the acid in seltzer will mess up your teeth.

[Ice_cream_suit]

Jack Kerouac was a high functioning alcoholic and wrote some fairly well known books.

Until he died of bleeding oesophageal varices, a common complication of excess alcohol use.

Some beautiful images here : https://www.google.com.au/search?tbm=isch&q=esophageal+varic...

I know a number of alcoholics who attend AA and have been sober for decades.

My sincere best wishes. Please check out https://www.aa.org/

[rollthehard6]

For me, as an adult child of a now deceased alcoholic mother, the headline on this article plays down the findings detailed further down. If you're drinking every night in front of your kids, to my mind that is affecting them, whether you care to acknowledge it or not. So I would say it's great you acknowledge it is a problem and should address it. I think wine is a particularly insidious problem in many places as people see it is going along with food, which is fine in terms of a single glass say, not a bottle an evening. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-41665460

[kaiwen1]

I have a policy of drinking alternate years. I tried alternate months first. Didn't work for me. I spent most of my off months longing for them to end so I could enjoy another on month. It was too much effort. So I switched to year on, year off. This works. The drinking horizon is so far away that there's no pressing anticipation. I know I'll get to drink again some day and enjoy great IPAs and wine. But for now, I'm off. I'm going to miss wine with my meals and lubricated socializing, and that's ok. I've put my drinking in check. I own it. It doesn't own me.

I felt I had to do this because when I drink, I drink too much. I consider "too much" to be any amount that impairs my sleep, which for me is often as little 2 or 3 drinks. During my on years, like the current one, I'm pestered by a mental dialog about whether I should drink now, am I drinking too much, why did I drink so much last night, should I just have one, well maybe two... This undermines the harmony of my life. But I live with it so I can enjoy drinking. It's a sort of evil pact to preserve a pleasure.

The upside to alternate years is that I can really observe clearly the difference in my behavior and quality of life. Life really does change for the better in my off years. I do different things, spend time with different friends. It's a different approach to life. But I would never plan to go a month trip through Italy on an off year. On and off years have their own special uses.

Like you, I'm also a runner. I rarely miss a day. And there is no doubt that my running suffers when I drink. The upside to being a daily runner, at least for me, is that running takes priority over almost everything, including drinking. So even in on years, my running helps keep the drinking in check.

I wonder if anyone has found a drug, legal or illegal, that mimics the positive affects of alcohol but has little or no downside, like hangover and addiction?

[SOLAR_FIELDS]

Kava might be something like what you are looking for. I enjoyed it quite in place of alcohol many times before my body decided to become deathly allergic to it.

[justonepost]

Best advice is to find healthy emotional alternatives. Spending time with family and friends. Volunteering, exercising. Above all try to appreciate that you deserve to be alive. Love thyself. IMHO, underlying a lot of these addictions is an underlying death wish caused by a deep sense of unworthiness.

All we know about drinking and yet we still do it. Or fentanyl and opioids. The death rate keeps rising. I can only imagine is that the people who are doing it are doing it as a subconscious act of suicide.