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Ask HN: What visas are available for working in Europe without a degree?

125 points| brailsafe | 8 years ago | reply

I'm a 26 year old software developer with no degree from Canada. Navigating the waters of under 30 work permit visas for all European countries is turning out to be quite complex and I feel like I'm missing information.

My goal is to find work and live in a European country before age 30, ideally with a possible path to stay. If you have information on non-euro countries, I'd be very curious about that as well.

Part of the confusing bit is that some countries have working holiday visas with no highly skilled restrictions, Germany has the blue card and specific restrictions, all have separate skilled worker (with qualification) permits, and the list goes on. I feel like the job market is good, but I have no idea where I stand.

86 comments

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[+] bberkgaut|8 years ago|reply
In Sweden there are plenty of jobs and if you have several years of working experience no one is asking for your degree. Jobs with relocation option could be found, among others, on Stackoverflow or on local labor agency website (Arbetsförmedlingen [1], in Swedish;)

After four years in Sweden you would be granted a permanent residence, and one year later you could apply for Swedish passport.

The requirement of 'degree in computer science' is just a part of standard job description, at least I was never asked about my (missing) degree.

One interesting option to consider are 'consultant agencies'. They hire you on a permanent basis (often offering relocation) and then offer you to companies. This way you may reach companies not offering relocation themselves (e.g. startups). A small consultancy I am working for now, Go See Talents [2], is offering relocation from outside EU (along with mentoring for less experienced developers, which is probably not the case for you)

[1] https://www.arbetsformedlingen.se

[2] http://goseetalents.com

[+] vinni2|8 years ago|reply
In neighboring Norway there is Job Seeker visa [0] and the main requirement is you need to qualify as a skilled worker.

According to UDI one of the ways you qualify as a skilled worker : special qualifications that you have obtained through long work experience, if relevant in combination with courses etc. A permit is only granted in such cases in exceptional circumstances. Your qualifications must be equivalent to those of someone who has completed vocational training [1].

You also need to show that you can support yourself for 6 months (NOK 119 392)

[0] https://www.udi.no/en/want-to-apply/work-immigration/job-see...

[1] https://www.udi.no/en/word-definitions/skilled-worker/

[+] brailsafe|8 years ago|reply
This is sort of the problem that is at the heart of my question. Job markets seem to be pretty good for software people right now, but this is in conflict with residency requirements. If I could find a job in Sweden, I'd have to be able to legally work and live there. Just as well, even if a company wants to hire me, they have to be able to go through a legal process to do so.
[+] guessmyname|8 years ago|reply
The irony… I am a senior software engineer trying to get a Canadian visa :D

Last year I tried to immigrate to some European countries (Germany, Norway, Czech Republic, Spain) without success. While I could ace the interviews with multiple startups and medium/big companies, none of them wanted to sponsor the immigration considering the lack of formal education. One of my coworkers suggested to get a business visa either in Czech Republic or Germany because these two countries offer a straight-forward paperwork process that only requires some money, generic documents and a translator. He incorporated himself, got health insurance, a long term rent, did some generic paperwork and in a couple of months he got the letter of acceptance from the immigration office.

I was going to do the same but in Germany, considering that 5 different startups were interested to hire me, I was honest with them and explained my situation and they were okay, but I would need to get the visa by myself. The German government has a visa called "Residence Permit for the Purpose of Freelance or Self-Employment" [1] the page explains very well what you need to get the permit, you can live in the country for two years (one year + renovate for 6 months two times), then you can apply for the blue card which grants you the same rights of a regular citizen.

[1] https://service.berlin.de/dienstleistung/305249/en/

[+] notjosh|8 years ago|reply
Careful, the blue card won't let you move around Europe as a citizen. They're issued by individual countries, so you'll have residency rights in that country, but standard "90 in 180" freedom of movement within Schengen beyond that:

> If you hold a residence permit or a long-stay visa issued by a Schengen area country, you will have the same freedom of travel as a Schengen short-stay visa holder.

https://web.archive.org/web/20180108183307/http://ec.europa.... (the main website is down, but here's a wayback snapshot)

[+] brailsafe|8 years ago|reply
Where are you coming from and why are you interested in Canada?
[+] thijsb|8 years ago|reply
We’ve had no problem hiring people without degrees in the Netherlands (from outside EU/EER). But you need a high-skilled job, with requirements to your salary (which with CS you’ll most likely meet), and you need to sign a contract before you can get the visa. Most Companies will take care of the visa for you. I don’t know the exact name of the visa, I can look it up for you if you like.
[+] brailsafe|8 years ago|reply
Thanks, I'd really appreciate that. The name is surprisingly important because some countries have very similar sounding visas with very different requirements. Netherlands is definitely one of the countries I'd be interested in but haven't yet researched.
[+] pen2l|8 years ago|reply
How’s the situation for folks over 30 without a degree trying to get in eu?
[+] deniedeee|8 years ago|reply
I have 17 years of experience in my area (DevOps) and was recently denied a work visa by Germany. Reason: no degree. I had an already signed contract with a major company to earn 58k EUR/year.

The company appealed to the ZAV multiple times and got rejected.

And software developer is in the shortage list. I don't advise trying it without a degree even though I got assurances from every recruiter I talked to that a degree was absolutely not necessary. I should have trusted my gut.

EDIT: I showed the embassy formal proof of my work experience, countless IT courses, many certifications (LPI, Kubernetes, Oracle, etc), participation in open source projects. They shrugged it all off and said "no degree, only ZAV can approve you". ZAV wasn't happy about it either. So I'm not how serious these countries are when they talk about a shortage of skilled workers. It seems they can't help themselves with the bureaucracy.

[+] jashmatthews|8 years ago|reply
Was that for a BlueCard? I know a ton of people working here under the BlueCard scheme but I don't personally know anyone who's been approved without a university degree.

I'd never bothered to officially graduate, but I did it before immigrating here in case I have to move to a BlueCard post Brexit.

[+] brailsafe|8 years ago|reply
Thanks for the contrary input. Always valuable to know what can go wrong and where cost can be sunk. What is your country of origin?
[+] richardkmichael|8 years ago|reply
Certainly, for Canadians, going to France is very straightforward option.

You only need insurance and proof of finance means to support yourself and/or leave (return home); you can stay 12 months and extend to 24, possible 36 if you're studying too.

https://ca.ambafrance.org/ExperienceFrance

[+] e1g|8 years ago|reply
UK: Youth Mobility Scheme for people under 30. This visa is for 2 years, and you can live / work in the UK. Quite easy to get, and does not require a degree / job offer.

Germany: Berlin Freelancer/Artist Visa. Do anything you want for 2 year, and does not need a regular job offer (involves a bit of paperwork).

[+] IAmEveryone|8 years ago|reply
I know more Canadian/Australians/South Africans in the Berlin Tech Scene than Germans, and they seem to mostly share your motivations and seem rather happy with their choice.

The Freelancer visa rather easily lets you stay for two years. In that time, you can find a company to hire you and sponsor a more permanent visa. IIRC, you can apply for permanent residency after five years in the country.

Berlin was dirt cheap for a long time, and still is compared to cities with similar size in similar countries. It's full of people trying all sorts of alternative approaches to life. As long as it's not criminal[0], you can do almost anything and probably find five to five thousand others than want to do it with you, two journalists than want to make a documentary about it, and one New York Times article declaring it the new trend.

[0]: or probably even if it is

[+] brailsafe|8 years ago|reply
Thanks :). Hadn't come across the Germany freelancer visa.
[+] AriaMinaei|8 years ago|reply
"European countries" is a pretty wide net. Some you'd enjoy living in, some you may not, and preferences vary.

I moved to Finland because I had paid a visit before and had "fell in love with it," so to say. And even though it's an advanced country with an extremely high standard of living, getting in and settling was surprisingly easy.

They did ask me for a degree at the embassy, but I just gave them a good resume and recommendation letters (whom they never contacted). I told them I'm self-taught and don't need a degree. Their official website speaks vaguely on the subject of degrees, but their law does not explicitly require it. If you're in the IT sector, you mainly need a high salary and an offer from preferrably a stable company. That's enough to qualify you for a visa called "Residence permit for a person employed as a special expert."

This visa grants you a lot of freedom. After moving to Finland For example, you have 4 months to choose to stay in your new job. If you decide to leave the job, this visa allows you to stay in the country to find another job. Doing that with a non-specialist visa may cause you trouble when you decide to extend your stay the next year.

The visa also easily renews after one year of working, giving you four additional years, after which you can apply for permanent residence or citizenship.

Since you're a Canadian citizen, the process should be even easier for you. Basically a company gives you an offer and relocates you to a hotel/airbnb in Finland right away, so you can start working before the authorities decide on your visa. Once you're in Finland, you can visit the immigration office and apply for residency there.

Once you have your permit, you can go ahead and get a permanent place to live, which most companies help you with. They usually lend you the rent deposit, pay for a hotel before you find a place, and help you with your rental contract, etc.

There is very little paperwork in the whole process. Setting up a bank account is easy. Taxes are done online and are mostly automatic. Health insurance is granted from day one. Additional insurance is cheap and a single phone call away.

The whole process was so smooth that most of the time I didn't even realise there was a process there. It was only after I had moved to Germany (a country that I love to live in and hate to do paperwork in) that I realised just how well oiled the Finnish system really is. And I hear they've made it even better since I left :)

[+] aviaro|8 years ago|reply
Sorry, I can't help you, but I am curious as to why do you want to move out of Canada when many Europeans want to go the other way?
[+] brailsafe|8 years ago|reply
I love Canada and it's a great country, but I'm a wanderer and a curious person if I were to simplify it. I discussed a few practical aspects as well in response to a similar question above.

Edit: Are you considering moving to Canada? If not, can you speak to why you think more Europeans are interested in doing so?

[+] SyneRyder|8 years ago|reply
If you're under 30, you should still be eligible for the Working Holiday Visa. This was the website I used for initial research when I applied for working holiday visas a few years ago to Germany & Canada:

http://www.workingholidayinfo.com/canadians/

It has info for other nationalities too (I'm Australian). I'm not sure if Kirsty is keeping it updated, so you might want to double-check her info, but it should be a good starting point.

If you're intending to stay, Germany's Blue Card might be the best path. If you can learn the language and attain B1 level of fluency, you can gain permanent residency in 21 months.

[+] brailsafe|8 years ago|reply
I'm seeing some conflicting replies here regarding the Blue Card. Does it not require a degree?
[+] jorgemf|8 years ago|reply
Each country in Europe has its own visa, and depending on the visa you might need other visas for other countries if you want to travel around. So the first question is where do you want to go? Do you know other languages than english? (north countries speak English either as first or second language) Oh, don't forget one country is leaving the European Union in the next years (it might impact you).

First find a couple of places you want to live in and then search for their visas, doing it the other way is going to be a nightmare as you already know.

[+] brailsafe|8 years ago|reply
Northern Countries would be first on my list and the UK would be interesting to live in for a period of time regarding that whole leaving the EU thing. I've casually been learning German for a while and can get by. Skill building is super important to me and languages are a key component of that.
[+] iamspoilt|8 years ago|reply
Curious and also from Canada. Are you considering moving to Europe to find better work opportunities? Why is that so when Canada offers a pretty decent career path in tech?
[+] brailsafe|8 years ago|reply
This isn't a tech consideration. Tech can be made anywhere in the world. In Canada however, there are only a few places that overlap in terms of places I want to be and that have plenty of opportunities. This is pretty limited to Vancouver and maybe Montreal. So it's more of consideration towards exploration. Cultural and otherwise. Vancouver is great, but it's outrageously expensive and lacks any cultural flavor. Montreal has cultural flavor but lacks mountains and so on.

There are other considerations as well, such as the vastness of Canada vs the closer proximity of mainland Europe to other countries. I'm from Winnipeg, and it's a 6 hour drive to the next minor city.

Edit: I don't think these interests are rare, but I get the feeling that people more or less want to find a paying job that let's them buy a single family home and move out to the suburbs. I don't subscribe to this idea, and want to explore other avenues of living.

Furthermore, work culture here hasn't been desirable so far in my career. I don't necessarily expect it to be different elsewhere, but why not broaden my horizons in that respect too?

[+] brailsafe|8 years ago|reply
It's also worh noting that I do have a 1 year technical diploma, but no formal undergraduate degree. Though I am working on it slowly because learning is interesting and in case other ways don't pan out.
[+] drakonka|8 years ago|reply
I went the one year working holiday visa route from Australia to Sweden >5 years ago and ended up getting a normal employment-based residence permit after getting a full time job. So that's one option.
[+] thiagooffm|8 years ago|reply
In Germany you can definitely get a job without a degree.

The company will need to dig much further into the bureaucracy path in order to do so, so you need to be a great candidate.

[+] deniedeee|8 years ago|reply
That's not my experience at all. The company that hired me went to great lengths to get the approval and got rejected every time.

If you don't have a degree, it's more like a lottery that depends on whoever gets to see your case at the embassy/labor department.

[+] 6t6t6t6|8 years ago|reply
Spouse visa? ;)
[+] brailsafe|8 years ago|reply
Heh, I've considered it. Wouldn't be impossible, but not feasible right now.
[+] justboxing|8 years ago|reply
Hi!

I run http://www.visaok.in/ a job board listing curated visa sponsored tech jobs in over 20 countries around the world. A while back, I painstakingly created Visa Guides for the top 20 most popular countries around the world (most of them are in Europe and Asia). These Visa Guides provide details on the Visa Requirements in various categories of 'Skilled Tech Workers'. All Visa Guides are listed here => http://www.visaok.in/work-permit/blog/

I found that in almost all the countries that have some sort of a 'Startup Visa', there is no requirement for having a degree.

I've listed the Guides for European employers below. It shouldn't take you too long to identify a country of choice and review the short, but detailed Visa Guide to see if you fit in without a college degree. You can then search the main job site after selecting the Visa from the dropdown and entering your skill / job title.

My email is in bio. Feel free to write back for more info or if you have any feedback on the job board.

Germany Visa Guide http://www.visaok.in/visa-guide-germany/

Netherlands Visa Guide http://www.visaok.in/visa-guide-netherlands/

UK Visa Guide http://www.visaok.in/visa-guide-united-kingdom/

Czech Republic Visa Guide http://www.visaok.in/czech-republic-visa-guide/

Hungary Visa Guide http://www.visaok.in/hungary-visa-guide/

Ireland Visa Guide http://www.visaok.in/ireland-visa-guide/

Spain Visa Guide http://www.visaok.in/visa-guide-spain/

Finland Visa Guide http://www.visaok.in/finland-visa-guide/

Austria Visa Guide http://www.visaok.in/austria-visa-guide/

Denmark Visa Guide http://www.visaok.in/denmark-visa-guide/

Poland Visa Guide http://www.visaok.in/poland-visa-guide/

Sweden Visa Guide http://www.visaok.in/visa-guide-sweden/

Estonia Visa Guide http://www.visaok.in/visa-guide-estonia/

[+] mgnr|8 years ago|reply
For canadian citizens <30 y/o:

https://www.gov.uk/tier-5-youth-mobility

[+] nikon|8 years ago|reply
Met my fair share in London on this visa. Sadly there is rarely a way of staying after your 2 years unless your employer really commits to sponsoring you, which they never do.