I'm an introverted hacker. I want to join a frat.

[Introverty]

[niceFirstPost]

Let's start here: I'm a college freshman, and introverted and sheltered as hell. I've always been a shy, timid, geeky hacker.

Introversion-wise, I can't handle extended amounts of time with people, or large crowds. Both drain me like no other. I've always been shy and mellow. Sheltered-wise, I never party or get drunk or any of that.

But now I'm in college and I want to change. I want to be social and party and so on.

[b]So I rushed a frat.[/b] And I got a bid. (Probably cause I look good more than anything else.) And tonight I went to the first meeting.

And here's the problem. Getting in was easy because it was just an alumni panel and an interview. [b] But I'm not sure how - or if - I can get through the pledge process.[/b] I'm just so far behind everyone else: I'm not good in crowds; don't know how to act at parties; don't know how to drink and drinking games; don't know how to dance; don't know.

[b] Here's my first question: [/b] Do you think I can improve and should try to complete the pledge process? (It's not a hardcore frat, so there's no hazing and such.) Or should I work on my social skills for a semester and pledge again?

[b] Next question: [/b] If you guys think I should go for it, how can I "catch up" socially? What do I need to learn and how? (Talking? Being in groups? Drinking/Games? Partying?)

Thanky.

[/niceFirstPost\

[metamemetics]

Quit and join campus activities that actually interest you. You will have a much better college experience if you say, join the Campus Radio because you like music and everyone else is there because they like music. In most greek fraternities, there is usually zero shared interest why you're there. It's an institution with no core purpose or function other than guaranteeing its own survival by luring in more freshmen. At least the large monolithic bureaucratic organizations in our society exist to fulfill some purpose, however inefficiently.

In business, you choose your associates carefully and don't spend time with people who bring down your focus and energy. Rushing a fraternity is the opposite of choosing your associates carefully. It's taking a big risk on who your going to be stuck with for the next 4 years and gambling away your identity.

When you commit yourself to a time intensive organization or social group, it becomes your identity to everyone else (like it or not). If you want to live a self-aware life, only commit your time and identity to organizations whose function and purpose you passionately believe in.

If you are doing it to party, rest assured other campus organizations will party just as much. If you are doing it to meet girls, do community service instead. Trust me, hot girls LOVE doing community service.

edit: thanks for the downvotes, br0s.

Challenge to any fraternity members: How are Greek Fraternities not the exact definition of a "sick system" as defined here: http://issendai.livejournal.com/572510.html and discussed thoroughly on YC here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1677013

?

[Zev]

There's a benefit to getting to know people with interests other than yours. Perhaps you'll discover that you actually like something new.

[frederickcook]

I joined a fraternity because I was an introverted engineering major, and wanted to get some social skills.

It worked. In addition to social skills, I took leadership positions, managed teams of people, managed a budget, learned invaluable presentation skills, and probably most importantly, gained a great deal of self-confidence.

I wouldn't be a startup founder without all those skills, nor would I be a startup founder without my hacker skills.

That said, the fraternity I joined annually won awards as a top fraternity at it's campus and nationally. I know many others who joined fraternities and had very different experiences.

[Loy]

I have one warning for the author tho. Frats are societies and as such they are regulated by a hierarchy. Don't ever forget it. You don't need to be a leader right away, but you certainly want to avoid the bottom of the ladder. There is - always - at least one goofy in every group.

I want to be social and party and so on.

You probably just want a shortcut to girls. I'd say go for it, experience things by yourself. But remember that your adhesion to a frat (or anything else for that matter) won't do everything for you. Status is determined by the way other members treat you.

By the way, "being good with crowds", "dancing", etc: it's a smoke screen. Don't focus on that. All you need is to be liked by the leaders (aspire to become one).

The first mistake you can make is trying to please them by doing everything they ask. You'll see the majority of people will try to please them this way. Avoid this trap.

Use your smartness and some boldness. Be active, make it your own experience, don't be passive and wait to be fed. If you are active and bring something with your personnality and energy, it'll be hard not to like you. Be around the right guys. A couple of social psychology books might be useful as well. It's a good challenge.

[kloncks]

I'm an Engineer (though I count myself as extroverted) and joined a fraternity in college. It's my junior year now. I also know a few Comp Sci kids in other fraternities.

The answer is: it depends on which fraternity you're looking at and what their values/priorities are.

The stereotypical fraternity guy that gets portrayed in tv shows does exist...but only in specific fraternities. I would shy away from that.

A fraternity can be a great experience and one you couldn't really trade for anything else. Not everyone starts college extroverted and outgoing.

My advice? Find a fraternity that will embrace you and extend your character NOT change who you are inside or alter your values. If that's what you've found, go for it. If not, keep looking.

In my fraternity, I'm hardly the only "nerd" around in terms of interests. We may not look like it from the outside but the topics we will discuss in our free time (which is sometimes at 3 in the morning) include everything from the typical college scene, to Israel/Palestine, Obama/McCain, melting polar caps, and the philosophy of death. I can easily say that my fraternity in college has let me find those guys that I want to be there at my wedding...not to mention gave me a number of fun stories to tell later!

Shoot me an email (it's in my profile) and we can gladly talk more about this if you want.

Edit: Sorry, didn't see your last question! I think it might come as a surprise to some, but the things you will need to learn to fit in a fraternity are the same sorts of skills you need to be successful and outgoing in society. Don't focus on "learning drinking games"...but more on learning to be social, outgoing, raising your public speaking skills, etc. You'll find out that learning those skills not only makes college life a lot cooler (you'll also turn into a leader and hone those skills) but also raise you in society, and that covers everything from nailing a job interview to successfully talking to a lady.

[troymc]

Being an introvert is fine. It didn't stop Isaac Newton or Emily Dickinson from doing great things.

Forget about the frat. Go hack on a project that interests you. Both you and the world will be better off for it.

[jodrellblank]

Being an introvert is fine. It didn't stop Isaac Newton or Emily Dickinson from doing great things.

Or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Cavendish

"""Cavendish was silent and solitary, and was viewed as somewhat eccentric by many. He only spoke to his female servants by notes and formed no close personal relationships outside his family. By one account, Cavendish had a back staircase added to his house in order to avoid encountering his housekeeper because he was especially shy of women. His only social outlet was the Royal Society Club, whose members dined together before weekly meetings. Cavendish seldom missed these meetings, and was profoundly respected by his contemporaries. However his shyness made those who "sought his views... speak as if into vacancy. If their remarks were...worthy, they might receive a mumbled reply."

Because of his asocial and secretive behaviour, Cavendish often avoided publishing his work, and much of his findings were not even told to his fellow scientists. In the late nineteenth century, long after his death, James Clerk Maxwell looked through Cavendish's papers and found things for which others had been given credit. Examples of what was included in Cavendish's discoveries or anticipations were Richter's Law of Reciprocal Proportions, Ohm's Law, Dalton's Law of Partial Pressures, principles of electrical conductivity (including Coulomb's Law), and Charles's Law of Gases."""

[inboulder]

"Isaac Newton or Emily Dickinson" funny you should have mentioned both of these folks, they both died virgins. The world might have been better, but they never got to experience an important part of being human.

[pavelludiq]

Speaking as a shy person, who managed to mostly outgrow his shyness, remember these simple pieces of advice:

Know when you're being obnoxious, and don't be. Be nice, but don't let others push you around. Talk less, listen more, people like it when others listen to their BS, and don't like to listen to your BS. Don't be arrogant, don't assume people are stupider than you, even if they are. Be funny, but only from time to time, if you find yourself making an ass of yourself all or most of the time, calm down. Most importantly, be bold. Start small, talk to a stranger, do something stupid, or anything that makes you a bit uncomfortable, and gradually move up to the harder stuff, like asking a girl out, or something like that.

Don't be afraid of humiliating yourself to much. After you internalize the fact that being humiliated isn't so bad, being bold will not be to much of a problem, and you'll be less shy.

p.s.(if you have bad hygiene, start with that, being smelly makes most of the above advice useless.)

[arthurdent]

Drinking and partying and dancing a lot will make you get better at drinking and partying and dancing.

People worry a lot about [achieve task X] optimally, when really its probably fine to just [achieve task X] somehow/eventually.

For example, people read mountains of research to fine tune their workouts. Guys who work on farms do fine without. "Lift heavy things. Repeat." will make you strong enough that you shouldn't have to overthink the method you choose. Don't overthink the social skills thing either. Have fun. Repeat. Drink and party and dance and you'll get better at it.

[JangoSteve]

When I started college (I'm an Engineer), I was relatively extroverted, but definitely not a partier or drinker. I wanted to make some of the same changes you discuss, so I rushed a couple fraternities and made a lot of friends. I got bids from 3 fraternities but didn't go with any of them, because in the end, as much as I liked the people, the fraternity lifestyle just didn't jive with my independence.

I was still able to become well-entrenched in the social scenes, because I participated in a lot of extra-curricular activities: Formula SAE, Mobile Robotics, WKUF 97.3FM, The Muse (our art publication), DEX (collegiate marketing competition), Firebirds Car Club, started a rock band, etc. These are all things that interested me, and I met a lot of friends, across all fraternities and sororities and independents, who shared these interests.

My point is this: there are a lot of ways to make friends, be social, and party. Don't sell yourself short by thinking that a fraternity is the only path. There are a lot of good reasons to join a fraternity outside of the social/party aspect, those are the things you should be considering. If a fraternity seems right to you, then do it. If not, don't worry, there are other ways.

EDIT: Also, I wouldn't worry about "catching up" socially. Just try to enjoy yourself. And remember that everyone (and I mean EVERYONE) has something to teach you. Make it your mission to figure out what that is (and yes, this will be harder with some people than others).

[yardie]

Wow, your experience reads almost exactly like mine. I wasn't an introvert just choosey about friends. I also did Formula SAE, Solar car racing, started a magazine with design students, started a culture-based student org. and DJed at WUVT (90.7) and house parties.

Good fraternities really play down the social networking aspect of themselves. If you even bring up parties and networking during rush they usually see it as a turn off. This comes from friends that wanted me to join, but since I already had a full calendar wouldn't have time for one more thing.

[mahmud]

FWIW, you will be in close proximity with other men, living in a house with them, hanging out on the couch with them, passing out and prancing around. However shitty your life might be now, at least you don't wake up to a 21 cock salute. I managed a property that a frat lived in, and seriously, it IS a greek society.

It's also my opinion that ex-frat members retain that weird Vince Vaughn "dude" attitude well past their prime.

I recommend you join groups that are not self-segregating either by gender or anything else. Art and culture groups are nice.

[nkurz]

Just wondering: does the concept of fraternities make any sense to non-US readers? Are there parallels elsewhere? I went to a school in the US, but one that had abolished them years before I got there. I never felt that I was missing something. But it's interesting to read all the positive responses here.

True or not, one often hears that that US higher education is the best in the world. To my knowledge, only the US has fraternities and sororities: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraternities_and_sororities>.... And yet I've never heard anyone claim that this is our secret advantage. Perhaps?

[jacobolus]

No. That’s not our secret advantage. This is our secret advantage: http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2010/may/27/america...

> By far the best thing about America is its universities. Not Harvard, Yale, e tutti quanti: though marvelous, they are not distinctively American—their roots reach across the ocean to Oxford, Heidelberg, and beyond. Nowhere else in the world, however, can boast such public universities. You drive for miles across a godforsaken midwestern scrubscape, pockmarked by billboards, Motel 6s, and a military parade of food chains, when—like some pedagogical mirage dreamed up by nineteenth-century English gentlemen—there appears…a library! And not just any library: at Bloomington, the University of Indiana boasts a 7.8-million-volume collection in more than nine hundred languages, housed in a magnificent double-towered mausoleum of Indiana limestone.

> A little over a hundred miles northwest across another empty cornscape there hoves into view the oasis of Champaign-Urbana: an unprepossessing college town housing a library of over ten million volumes. Even the smallest of these land grant universities—the University of Vermont at Burlington, or Wyoming’s isolated campus at Laramie—can boast collections, resources, facilities, and ambitions that most ancient European establishments can only envy.[fn1]

> ...

> My own perspective is still colored by that year in Davis. Originally the agricultural extension of the University of California, precariously perched amid the rice paddies of the Sacramento River delta—halfway between San Francisco and nowhere in particular—UC Davis now boasts 3.3 million volumes, a world-class research faculty, and the country’s leading green energy program. Some of the most interesting colleagues I know have spent their lives in Davis. At the time, however, this was a mystery to me: the year completed, I retreated cautiously to the Olde English familiarity of Cambridge. But nothing was quite the same. Cambridge itself felt somehow reduced and constricting: the pancake-flat Fenland as remote as any rice paddy. Everywhere is somewhere else’s nowhere.

> [fn1]: By way of comparison, the University Library in Cambridge, England, boasts just seven million volumes; the University of Vienna (founded in 1365) just 6.6 million.

[xyzzyz]

There are no fraternities in Poland, at least none that I am aware of. Reading this thread, I came to believe that main purpose of frats is making new friends and/or creating artificial bonds with other people. This does not make much sense here -- the country is not that big, and many people attend universities near their living place and they don't feel so lost in a completely new place, as they commute every day. People whose universities are too far for them to commute, frequently live in school's dormitory, and its social system pretty much resembles the fraternity's one.

The correlation between fraternities and the quality of education is in my opinion artificial. I don't really know much about the US system, but I guess the main reason behind such quality is high funding.

[mixu]

Not to my knowledge. The core reason is that in many countries, universities don't have campuses in the same sense that universities in the US seem to have. My experience is from the Nordic countries (spent a few years chairing various student associations), and we do have student unions, nations and subject/interest -based associations, but these are all different.

A quick rundown:

The student unions (e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Student_unionism_in_Finland ) are part of the university administration, have 100's of millions in assets and provide basic services (healthcare, apartments, places to party) in exchange for 40+ euros per year.

The subject- and interest-based associations are separate entities that get some funding from the student union and organize events. They don't charge, and mostly get their cash from organizing events. However, since everybody lives around town, the interactions are more focused around specific events. The nations (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation_(university) ) are a lot like the student associations, except they are specific to people from a particular area in the country (not strictly enforced), have a bit more money (e.g. may have their own apartments) and organize activities centered around traditions and whatever is popular.

Thanks for a good question, interesting to see the parallels in other countries...

[mvalle]

No, it doesn't. I read the Wikipedia's overly academic description and I still don't get it. (And I've never heard of corporations either.)

[chriseidhof]

We have that as well (in the Netherlands). Most of the time, though, our "student societies" are mixed. I can definitely recommend you to join one: just have fun and you'll learn as you go. Don't worry too much about the skills you have, just show up and you'll learn.

[Luc]

In Belgium we have (mixed) student societies, mostly set up by study choice (e.g. the 'Maths & Physics Society'), and some unpleasant ones around politics. New students get a hazing, after which they all wear lab coats with drawings on them and adopt new names. Activities center mostly around drinking and singing songs ('cantusses') in Latin ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaudeamus_igitur ), or so it seems to me anyway. My memory of these events is really rather hazy.

[Bootvis]

From wikipedia "although it is also applied to analogous European groups also known as corporations. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporation_(university).

[augiehill]

Own the geekiness.

Being comfortable and confident with who you are is the most important thing in life IMO, and other people gravitate towards people that are confident.

You can't fundamentally change who you are... it just doesn't happen, but you can grow gradually through your experiences, so I say take full ownership of who you are and don't force yourself into super uncomfortable situations. I say try it out, but be prepared to drop it if you find that it's just not for you.

[JoeAltmaier]

Disagree. I decided in college to quit being the shy farm kid. Worked out great. Its just a matter of practice.

[forkandwait]

I can't comment on the frat aspect, but I can comment on how to be become extroverted: take some theater classes at the junior college. After 2 semesters of acting -- getting up in front of people and trying to project emotion and drama while interacting with your fellow actors -- you will never consider yourself shy again.

[cmos]

This over and over again!

My mother forced me to try out for drama my freshman year of high school. She bothered me all summer and said that if I tried out, I could choose whether to join or not, and she would never bother me again. I was shy, introverted and scared of most social situations that didn't involve my 4 highly geeky childhood friends. Going up on stage was simply not going to be something I was going to do. I agreed to go just so she would stop bothering me.

Brilliantly enough, I met so many girls during the audition and even got invited to a party later that night that I sang 'happy birthday' out of key and got the part of 'man with umbrella'. It never occurred to me after that day to not do drama. (FYI: men will usually always get some chorus part, and even if you can't sing, you'll be in a group of people who can, which is 10x easier than alone)

I did a musical every year throughout high school and had the _time_ of my life. It made it easy to speak in public, win business plan competitions, talk at trade shows, cold call people for sales, do interviews in front of a camera, and got me invited to 3-4 formals per year during high school.

If you want to start your own company this is the most fun way to be learning extroversion.

[andre3k1]

I'm in a fraternity and can give you some coached advice. Every year we like to pull in that stereotypical, socially-awkward kid.

Why? Because their funny.

Your best bet is to be honest about your social ineptitude and play it off in a comedic fashion.

Pledging (and being around the older guys) will help you develop the social skills that you desire. If you're a hacker you're probably logical and analytical as hell. When you go out with these guys analyze them and what they do. Break it down and repeat their processes. What works for them will work for you.

[dan00]

You've to differentiate between introversion and shyness. Introversion can't be overcome in the same way as shyness.

Introversion is a deep personal habit. If you don't like crowds, than you will never be able to enjoy them as extrovert people. You can get more used to them, but they will always exhaust you.

Shyness is more of a learnt habit, the result of missing interactions with people and the result of a low self-confidence. When you interact more with people and rise your self-confidence, than also the shyness will decrease.

[xiongchiamiov]

Good point. I'm most certainly an introvert (I scored straight 100s in S and C on a recent DISC assessment), but not what I would consider shy. I'm not afraid of talking to people; I just normally don't have anything to say (or prefer to keep my snarky responses to myself).

[viggity]

Joining a fraternity was one of the best decisions I've ever made. It is a million times more easy to become involved on campus activities when you have a large social network via the Fraternity.

I've got 100 friends for life, 20 of which I see frequently at various events like Homecoming or football games.

Stay with it until you get a better feeling for how well you mesh with everyone else and decide then - just make sure that you give it your all and try to hang out with them as much as possible.

Good Luck.

[xiongchiamiov]

I was in the marching band my first quarter. There are 200 people I know at every football game.

[mx12]

A) From what most of what my friends have said, pledging isn't that bad, but it depends on the frat

B) Attend something outside of your normal circle of friends. Join a student organization or club sports team if you like sports. I graduated with a EE degree and I did cheerleading (At a big ten university :) my sophomore and junior year of college. It was a great experience to meet people outside of other engineers.

As a side not, when I was a freshman I thought about joining a frat, but the reason why I didn't join was because people tend to label you based on what frat you belong to. This is especially true if you meet a sorority girl, they will instantly know the reputation of your frat. So just know the reputation of the frat you want to join first before joining.

[zck]

I've recommended it before; I'll recommend it again: improv. The other new people there won't know what they're doing either, so everyone else will be just as awkward as you are. It will teach you to be more comfortable in the spotlight, even when you have no idea what you're going to say next, or what you're currently saying. It also ends at a specified time (e.g., improv club meets from 9:00 to 10:30), so you don't have to make excuses to leave.

Besides, it's a crazy amount of fun.

[DuncanIdaho]

I was in your shoes once. Now I'm widely considered as one of most socially apt/spontaneous people in any group.

By all means - be bold. Heed my advice that fear is good while phobias are bad. You should embrace fear - since fear is what will motivate you to prepare for your encounters. While systematically working against your phobias. The only way to demolish your "phobias" is by acting against your fight/flight impulses.

Do not be affraid of making a fool of yourself. Because You WILL make a fool of yourself. Embrace it. Tell people about it. Remember you should always put your shortcomings/weak spots in public view (hide in plain sight). Thus people who will try to "damage" you will try to find your hidden spots - where you are actually the "hardest".

One thing that has worked for me (YMMV) is not to "follow" people. ESPECIALLY popular people - find "weak" people and start helping them on feeling better about themselves, help them out socially (the mere fact that you posted here is a sign that you are not so inept as you think of yourself). Thus you will create your own following - eventually converting the "popular" people into your own followers.

And listen to "Wear Sunscreen" - it contains all the secrets of the trade. That is all there is to it.

[derwiki]

It sounds like you know it already, but absolutely quit if you think anything turns into hazing -- it's a cheap way to build friendships and good fraternities don't need that. Past that, don't go overboard on drinking at first either. That's really not a good reason to be joining a fraternity anyway, you can drink with anyone.

Use your nerdier qualities to help the fraternity. We built an interactive carnival booth for a campus event that used a program I wrote to play different songs when an external switch was toggled. Don't let the fraternity change you -- use it as a way to be comfortable with your nerdiness. Friendships and social interaction will start becoming natural after that.

To echo what frederickcook said, there are -great- fraternities out there that will give you an opportunity to become a leader (and they are often the chapters that are winning national awards). Taking advantage of these opportunities is something I regularly cite as one of the best moves I made in undergrad. Try picking a less involved position in the house as soon as you can -- there are usually a few suited toward freshmen.

[gte910h]

Make sure you've chosen men you wish to become like; you do become like those you associate with. Make sure they're just, reasonable, and not buffoons or asses.

Past that, joining a Fraternity is one of the easiest ways to learn some of the soft skills of adulthood, including asking out women, enjoying the company of strangers, learning storytelling, learning smalltalk, and completing project involving the motivation and leadership of other men.

Some of them are a also a good way to learn poor habits with alcohol or distasteful treatment of women: Make sure you aren't in one of those.

Additionally, many of them do bad things to your grades (however on average, most greeks do better than non-greeks gradewise). Make sure you're in one who has one of the higher 2-3 grades on campus with stringent grade standards.

Usually in most fraternity organizations, you get a guide/brother assigned to you; bring up some of your doubts with him and you may find out he will have some suggestions for you and be able to help some.

[tchae]

Hey, it's important to take the #JFDI concept and put it to this as well. I'm a very extroverted individual (makes sense since I focus on the actual business part of startups - non-tech) and I can say I have this same "shy and sheltered" personality about entering the engineering scene.

God knows, how much I would love to get into it, as I'm sure you would love to get into the whole social scene.

Don't worry about "where to start" "who to talk to" "what to learn and how". Just fucking do it. Although I'm not encouraging underage drinking, pick up a cup, don't get too crazy, have a good time.

While you are trying to be social and extroverted for maybe the first time of your life, the ONLY thing that is going to make you look awkward to your frat brothers or any other people is how YOU see yourself.

Don't hesitate, get out there, get knee deep into the scene and pretty soon you'll have friends who appreciate you and you will be able to be real open with all of them.