I know about and have done Toastmasters. Are there any other effective ways to develop my interpersonal abilities, besides reading "How to Make Friends and Influence People" etc?
I went with my friend to the convenience store on the weekend. He spent a couple of minutes chatting with the clerk behind the counter while I watched. It seemed like the most natural thing in the world.
He later told me that he didn't feel at all comfortable during the conversation. He said that he has been trying to "bust out of his geeky shell" by talking to random people. To me it looked like he was just a friendly guy chatting with a stranger.
Moral of the story: just do it. It will probably feel weird but you are the only person who will notice.
"Moral of the story: just do it. It will probably feel weird but you are the only person who will notice."
While this advice is, of course, true, it's also pretty common for introverts without a lot of social experience to not notice when they're making someone uncomfortable. So, starting conversations is a great way to get over the fear of them, ending them in a reasonable time frame is a great way to insure you aren't crossing the boundary into uncomfortable (for the other person...I know that the introvert is going to be uncomfortable throughout the exchange, as I'm an introvert myself, and so the cues that may be obvious to most folks aren't as obvious to an introvert...insert boiling frog analogy here).
I agree with this. My biggest fear up to last year was public speaking. No matter what format it was, I just hated being in front of people. Then one day, I decided I wasn't going to suck at it anymore and I started to seek out opportunities to present, and I slowly got better. It is still pretty terrifying, but usually I'm the only one who notices.
Introverted people need to break out of their shell and 'just do things'. This applies to pretty much everything. If you fail, try, try again and you will eventually succeed whether you want to be able to socialize with people or learn a new language or whatever it is that you truly desire.
Consider attending a political event. You'll be surrounded by only the socially adept who will all be forced to at least talk to you momentarily. Watch as they work a room. A relatively cheap donation will get you invited. Consider it a training fee. You'll learn more about power and interpersonal relationships in a night than a month of sitting by yourself at the bar.
btw - I second that this is a skill that does not come from books. It requires real effort on your part.
Also, go to programmer meetups. It will be many people that you can empathize with. You'll have a lot in common with the crowd an it is a good way to start.
From my own experience: It may seem crazy, but try this.
Climb down your geek tower and stop judging people (you may be judging people without even knowing it), then will come respect for people.
When you respect anyone around, you will gradually find interest in them; That will help break the ice, conversation will come easy and you’ll found out that people are much interesting than you think.
I couldn't agree more. During Y Combinator, there were two guys sitting behind me. They said something along the lines of "Not to be sterotypical but I am suspicious of any girls here. They're probably just project managers and not really hackers."
Not a very "social" tactical move to do when there were about two girls around the area who heard his comment and some hackers wonder why girls don't talk to them.
Find a fellow nerd and go to events together. Make it a project to encourage each other; that is, if I don't muster up the courage to meet someone and start a conversation, then you get a demerit. It's almost uncanny how we will find a way to succeed given a limited scope, easily defined problem.
Once you get into the swing of things, instinct takes over and you'll be fine. You probably have something interesting to discuss with almost everyone else out there. The trick is finding it.
I don't buy into the philosphy of learning about popular culture, sports, or current events just to have something to talk about. Stick with what turns you on; you can be yourself (who else would you be?), and the same thing probably turns someone else on, too.
(Aside: A drink or two couldn't hurt. That's what it's there for.)
I'm with you on taking a buddy - nothing like the spirit of competition to get you over the line.
Tech events are great too - barcamps, meetups etc. You'd be surprised at exactly how many hackers don't just defy the monosyllabic geek stereotype, but smash it out of the park.
A year of boxing worked for me. The experience of being in the ring, seeing his eyes while he's trying to punch your face, works wonders. You become peaceful and confident in everyday interactions.
Singing and playing guitar helps too, it makes you wanted and welcome, which you want to be.
A non-trivial fact for me was that a lot of conversations aren't about information; talking is a game, played for fun. Read "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas", watch "Pulp Fiction", and try to do the same.
Start by pretending to be genuinely interested in other people's lives, and their problems. If you pretend this for long enough, you'll find yourself actually feeling that way. And then you'll enjoy being around people, because they'll enjoy being around you.
I'm not sure you have to pretend at all. Try to realize that everyone and everything has a story and that it's often interesting to find out what it is.
Some people and things are more interesting than others of course. Learning how to gracefully exit a conversation is step #2.
Some great answers on here! Just wanted to give a contrary view though..
I tried becoming more "socially adept" for quite a while, but even though I can put on a pretty lively appearance on the outside, it's just not me. I'm an introvert and I accept that.
One of the best bits of advice I've heard recently is to "focus on strengths, not weaknesses." That is, there's no point hammering away improving at things you're bad at, and ending up mediocre at everything, if you can focus on the things you already kick ass at and become world class!
Most people who are socially inept tend only to be so with the public or people who are not considered close to them. Take Stanley Kubrick. He got a reputation for being an appallingly bad socializer, yet most of his closest contacts talk about what a friendly and amazing person he was.
So.. enough people are socially awkward, or even downright grating, but are or were world class in their field. These people should be an inspiration. Don't hammer away at making yourself a socially popular person if it takes energy away from being kickass.. because if you're kickass, you don't need many social skills.
I think that's good advice, but I also do think I'm missing something. For some reason I am just not at ease around others, and I don't get it. I think I lack a sense of self, there's always a need for confirmation from others, not that you would think so if you knew me.
Essentially, there is something missing and I feel disconnected from others. I cannot engage them on an intuitive level, I engage them on an analytical level which tries to look natural, because my intuition is not normal, i.e. doesn't sync with most people. I think this is true for many introverts, and is why they tend to be exhausted by social interaction.
You can't read yourself into social adeptness. I'd suggest participating in some non-nerd social gatherings. Figure out something you like and go spend some time doing it. Oddly enough, the nerds you do meet in other contexts tend to be interesting and well connected. (In Berlin for instance, there's a large overlap between the open source / founders social scenes and the electronic music scenes. I met my cofounder and many of the contacts that we're using through music rather than, say, the local LUG.)
I second the "meet nerds in other contexts" cause. I played some theatre at my university and besides becoming friends with some very cool girls and traveling the world, I strangely enough met a lot of other cs guys there.
And those are the ones who are indeed more interesting as they have a life beyond their computer, travel the world and have a broader context in life.
Oh you said besides that...well practice what it preaches. Us folk (geeks/nerds/hackers) tend to like to show how much we know about a subject. Some old dude is talking about how his phone can now surf the web...what do you say? Act a bit surprised and ask him a bit more about the subject. Let HIM show what he knows, and get that little feeling of self-importance. Don't squash it by saying you could ssh in to work on your phone 5 years ago and that his phone is garbage.
Also practice, and have someone judge your performance. There are a zillion things to improve on here, it is a difficult art to master. I would also say it is a long road that I wouldn't be satisfied in saying I know well until I can sit in a room with anyone at anytime and befriend them and/or convince them they want to reconnect with me again shortly.
One last thing, I have the most difficulty talking to people I know well and respect. For example, I was recently discussing business and my goals with an old co-worker I really respected, and I found myself a bit flustered. Anyone else experienced this and/or have any suggestions?
Boy, yeah, I have that problem. In my undergrad, there was a teacher I really respected, and I really wanted to get to know him, but I always felt like such a waste of his time. Happens with most older guys I really respect who don't go out of their way to befriend me.
However, if it's a matter of professional self interest, there's no problem. I'm quite bold going up and talking to people very senior in rank.
The most effective way I know of is the giving of ourselves. I don't mean in the passionate sense, but
more as a form of empathy, as a spiritual generosity.
For instance, try responding to people as if they were your brother or sister instead of a stranger, with candid good will; usually they'll respond in kind. If someone does something you like, tell them - nothing gushy, just let them know in a direct and quietly thankful way.
Let someone in a hurry go ahead of you in a queue, let them overtake you when you're driving, thank the bank teller or the shop assistant. All these things are so small, but they all add up, and from each act there will be a corresponding positive effect within you.
The giving of yourselves in this way has an immediate and positive effect on the mind/body. Try to be aware of how it feels as you do all of these things. You will feel your whole mind/body loosening up, a feeling of lightness that can't be achieved in any other way.
I had a good time with salsa dancing. It's a good way to meet girls, requires some actual skill (that can be learned with some effort), is fun in any case, and... dancing can tell you a lot about someone in a surprisingly short period of time.
If you are a programmer and strongly left-brained (not always the same thing), I'd suggest tricking yourself into thinking you have a logical approach to interpersonal relationships and then going to social gatherings quickly before you over-analyze.
Step 1 - Read most of http://www.amazon.com/Nlp-21-Days-Harry-Alder/dp/0749920300/... - this is NOT a good scientific book, but it seems to be good at convincing you to step outside your comfort zone. Optionally, skip this step and do sit-ups and push-ups instead which will make you feel more confident and comes with a low price tag.
Step 2 - Practice on an opposite-gendered friend whom you have no romantic interest in. If such a person does not exist, skip this step.
Step 3 - Attend social events. These are easy to find: book groups, local music, free martial arts class. Talk to people with no intent to "hook up" or even make friends. And I don't mean "tell yourself you're not interested so you'll have a better shot." I mean just talk to them. Ask something about the event. Ask what time it is (don't wear a watch or carry a cell phone). You don't have to have a conversation. You just have to communicate. Likewise, anytime you eat at a restaurant require yourself to compliment at least one employee while you are there.
Step 4 - Rinse and repeat until you realize you're enjoying all of the events and you talk to random people with more ease. As some of the comments have said, you can have great conversations talking about silly stuff that you don't care about if you enjoy the process of facilitating a good conversation.
Tips:
Don't drink unless you know your limit and have a pre-established track record for staying under your limit. Otherwise, you will end up undoing all confidence building when you get hammered and embarrass yourself once.
Avoid drunk people. They are a pain in the ass and will spill things on you. Both of these tips are easy to stick to if you don't go where people are drinking.
I suspect you're right about the analytical approach causing me problems. But, I've had a lot of "step out of your comfort zone" type advice throughout my life. I've done this, but I guess I'm not persistent enough. At any rate, I'd like another approach if possible.
One thing most geeks have in common is the ability to process information. Most of us don't have great social skills because we don't participate in social events but even more so we don't pay attention when we're in these situations. When you're in social group, push aside your latest paradigm and actually watch what other people are doing, its easy to pick out the people with the best interpersonal abilities. Watch them but don't mimic, instead find similarities in yourself (your interpersonal muscles) and then start working them out. Walk up to people and introduce yourself. Its hard at first but eventually it'll come naturally.
I suggest reading the following books, but I also suggest not using their suggestions. These books are merely for awareness. I fee like knowing what was out there, gave me more confidence while I was trying to find my own style.
[the Game] - this book is about the secret lives of pickup artists and their quest to find either a Beta or Alpha Gal. This book offers- ZERO advice if you are looking for a Gamma.
[The Art of Deception: Controlling the Human Element of Security] - from Kevin Mitnick, one of the fore-most books on social engineering. Reading this book kept us out of a few scams.
I agree with jdavid - books on gender-related issues can be helpful. [The Game] is hysterical. Read the ones for guys and girls. Some others:
[How to Succeed with Women] - Sounds cheesy, but goes over the basics that "geeks" often miss, including dressing appropriately, grooming, and polite conversation.
[He's Just Not That Into You] - Manual for women on how to tell if a guy doesn't care about them. Useful for learning about behaviors to avoid and their underlying reasons.
[Self-Made Man: One Woman's Journey into Manhood and Back] - Can't recommend this one enough. Norah Vincent lived for a year as a man, and reports back on the challenges and successes she had. Invaluable for understanding both men and women.
"...of awkward self consciousness, and feeling ashamed about said self consciousness"
"...can't connect at the small talk level. I have an easy time talking with people like xlnt about abstract ideas and philosophy..."
"but I strike out with anyone my age"
those express exactly (exactly!) as I feel. Let's see how much more we can relate. Do you also:
-Think that you are quite a weird yet funny individual, and wish you can show that to the people you know, but somehow can't?
-Also, you are often feel "closed-out" when another exuberant person comes on scene. Also, you have no problem chatting, emailing, etc. and can express yourself without limitation that way.
-Speeches are easy because everyone uniformly has their attention on you, but when you are in a casual group situation and have to vie for attention it gets intimidating (and you will undoubtedly reprimand yourself for later).
-You also find it hard to come out and say something once you already start a pattern of not saying anything, as you begin to become over-anxious about people's reaction to your change.
...
this list can go on and on...if you're not looking at this thread anymore, yters, at least i got to spill my guts out which doesn't feel that bad. If you want to continue the list, i'd love to hear other people's situations as well, we can treat it as a fun little game.
Yes, good phrasing. I think I feel some of that less now, i.e. social shame and getting closed out. But this was very true especially when I was in high school.
Spilling my guts is something that's helpful for me too.
Shyness is self-perpetuating. So start small, by doing something as simple as saying hi to people in an elevator (btw, elevators are a great place to talk to people, because they can't avoid you).
When you go to social events, go with a friend and make it a friendly competition to see who can meet the most interesting people.
Volunteer to do as many public speaking things as you can. And just generally force yourself out of your comfort zone. Reading won't get you very far, it's just practice practice practice.
I understand what you are saying. I often find myself in situations where I don't have the confidence or care to involve myself in, or to initiate, a discussion.
I spent a few years as a bartender and something I've learned is that you can always talk about the present. There are tons of things you share with another in any given moment, and often they are new experiences. Finding a common ground like that can be a great way to begin.
The best method for you probably varies based on _why_ you're socially inept. If it's because you haven't interacted enough with other people, then the advice others have given to get more experience makes sense. If it's because you're under confident or constantly worried about things the other person is thinking, you should work at getting rid of your insecurities.
The right course of action will then depend on the insecurity, but exercise and improved health generally boosted my confidence. If you experience anxiety over others judging you, consider that in most situations the person you're worried about probably isn't paying much attention to you, and even if they do notice you do something odd, they won't necessarily remember it; everything only revolves around you in _your_ head. Most of all, just get off your butt and do something about whatever bothers you -- if you're embarrassed by your long hair, get a haircut. A surprising number of my own insecurities were things like that -- easily fixable if I only took the time to calm down, consider them, and make a list of solutions.
[+] [-] swoodtke|18 years ago|reply
He later told me that he didn't feel at all comfortable during the conversation. He said that he has been trying to "bust out of his geeky shell" by talking to random people. To me it looked like he was just a friendly guy chatting with a stranger.
Moral of the story: just do it. It will probably feel weird but you are the only person who will notice.
[+] [-] Prrometheus|18 years ago|reply
[+] [-] SwellJoe|18 years ago|reply
While this advice is, of course, true, it's also pretty common for introverts without a lot of social experience to not notice when they're making someone uncomfortable. So, starting conversations is a great way to get over the fear of them, ending them in a reasonable time frame is a great way to insure you aren't crossing the boundary into uncomfortable (for the other person...I know that the introvert is going to be uncomfortable throughout the exchange, as I'm an introvert myself, and so the cues that may be obvious to most folks aren't as obvious to an introvert...insert boiling frog analogy here).
[+] [-] alarmist|18 years ago|reply
[+] [-] crisachow14|18 years ago|reply
[+] [-] culley|18 years ago|reply
btw - I second that this is a skill that does not come from books. It requires real effort on your part.
[+] [-] mikesabat|18 years ago|reply
Also, go to programmer meetups. It will be many people that you can empathize with. You'll have a lot in common with the crowd an it is a good way to start.
[+] [-] okeumeni|18 years ago|reply
Climb down your geek tower and stop judging people (you may be judging people without even knowing it), then will come respect for people.
When you respect anyone around, you will gradually find interest in them; That will help break the ice, conversation will come easy and you’ll found out that people are much interesting than you think.
[+] [-] bzerkfury|18 years ago|reply
Not a very "social" tactical move to do when there were about two girls around the area who heard his comment and some hackers wonder why girls don't talk to them.
[+] [-] edw519|18 years ago|reply
Once you get into the swing of things, instinct takes over and you'll be fine. You probably have something interesting to discuss with almost everyone else out there. The trick is finding it.
I don't buy into the philosphy of learning about popular culture, sports, or current events just to have something to talk about. Stick with what turns you on; you can be yourself (who else would you be?), and the same thing probably turns someone else on, too.
(Aside: A drink or two couldn't hurt. That's what it's there for.)
[+] [-] astrec|18 years ago|reply
Tech events are great too - barcamps, meetups etc. You'd be surprised at exactly how many hackers don't just defy the monosyllabic geek stereotype, but smash it out of the park.
[+] [-] cousin_it|18 years ago|reply
Singing and playing guitar helps too, it makes you wanted and welcome, which you want to be.
A non-trivial fact for me was that a lot of conversations aren't about information; talking is a game, played for fun. Read "Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas", watch "Pulp Fiction", and try to do the same.
[+] [-] projectileboy|18 years ago|reply
[+] [-] staunch|18 years ago|reply
Some people and things are more interesting than others of course. Learning how to gracefully exit a conversation is step #2.
[+] [-] petercooper|18 years ago|reply
I tried becoming more "socially adept" for quite a while, but even though I can put on a pretty lively appearance on the outside, it's just not me. I'm an introvert and I accept that.
One of the best bits of advice I've heard recently is to "focus on strengths, not weaknesses." That is, there's no point hammering away improving at things you're bad at, and ending up mediocre at everything, if you can focus on the things you already kick ass at and become world class!
Most people who are socially inept tend only to be so with the public or people who are not considered close to them. Take Stanley Kubrick. He got a reputation for being an appallingly bad socializer, yet most of his closest contacts talk about what a friendly and amazing person he was.
So.. enough people are socially awkward, or even downright grating, but are or were world class in their field. These people should be an inspiration. Don't hammer away at making yourself a socially popular person if it takes energy away from being kickass.. because if you're kickass, you don't need many social skills.
[+] [-] yters|18 years ago|reply
Essentially, there is something missing and I feel disconnected from others. I cannot engage them on an intuitive level, I engage them on an analytical level which tries to look natural, because my intuition is not normal, i.e. doesn't sync with most people. I think this is true for many introverts, and is why they tend to be exhausted by social interaction.
[+] [-] wheels|18 years ago|reply
[+] [-] knarf|18 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mrtron|18 years ago|reply
Oh you said besides that...well practice what it preaches. Us folk (geeks/nerds/hackers) tend to like to show how much we know about a subject. Some old dude is talking about how his phone can now surf the web...what do you say? Act a bit surprised and ask him a bit more about the subject. Let HIM show what he knows, and get that little feeling of self-importance. Don't squash it by saying you could ssh in to work on your phone 5 years ago and that his phone is garbage.
Also practice, and have someone judge your performance. There are a zillion things to improve on here, it is a difficult art to master. I would also say it is a long road that I wouldn't be satisfied in saying I know well until I can sit in a room with anyone at anytime and befriend them and/or convince them they want to reconnect with me again shortly.
One last thing, I have the most difficulty talking to people I know well and respect. For example, I was recently discussing business and my goals with an old co-worker I really respected, and I found myself a bit flustered. Anyone else experienced this and/or have any suggestions?
[+] [-] mlinsey|18 years ago|reply
[+] [-] yters|18 years ago|reply
However, if it's a matter of professional self interest, there's no problem. I'm quite bold going up and talking to people very senior in rank.
[+] [-] dpapathanasiou|18 years ago|reply
The most effective way I know of is the giving of ourselves. I don't mean in the passionate sense, but more as a form of empathy, as a spiritual generosity.
For instance, try responding to people as if they were your brother or sister instead of a stranger, with candid good will; usually they'll respond in kind. If someone does something you like, tell them - nothing gushy, just let them know in a direct and quietly thankful way.
Let someone in a hurry go ahead of you in a queue, let them overtake you when you're driving, thank the bank teller or the shop assistant. All these things are so small, but they all add up, and from each act there will be a corresponding positive effect within you.
The giving of yourselves in this way has an immediate and positive effect on the mind/body. Try to be aware of how it feels as you do all of these things. You will feel your whole mind/body loosening up, a feeling of lightness that can't be achieved in any other way.
[+] [-] davidw|18 years ago|reply
[+] [-] mechanical_fish|18 years ago|reply
B) Listening. Speaking is an important part of socializing, but it's a minor part.
[+] [-] justindz|18 years ago|reply
Step 1 - Read most of http://www.amazon.com/Nlp-21-Days-Harry-Alder/dp/0749920300/... - this is NOT a good scientific book, but it seems to be good at convincing you to step outside your comfort zone. Optionally, skip this step and do sit-ups and push-ups instead which will make you feel more confident and comes with a low price tag.
Step 2 - Practice on an opposite-gendered friend whom you have no romantic interest in. If such a person does not exist, skip this step.
Step 3 - Attend social events. These are easy to find: book groups, local music, free martial arts class. Talk to people with no intent to "hook up" or even make friends. And I don't mean "tell yourself you're not interested so you'll have a better shot." I mean just talk to them. Ask something about the event. Ask what time it is (don't wear a watch or carry a cell phone). You don't have to have a conversation. You just have to communicate. Likewise, anytime you eat at a restaurant require yourself to compliment at least one employee while you are there.
Step 4 - Rinse and repeat until you realize you're enjoying all of the events and you talk to random people with more ease. As some of the comments have said, you can have great conversations talking about silly stuff that you don't care about if you enjoy the process of facilitating a good conversation.
Tips:
Don't drink unless you know your limit and have a pre-established track record for staying under your limit. Otherwise, you will end up undoing all confidence building when you get hammered and embarrass yourself once.
Avoid drunk people. They are a pain in the ass and will spill things on you. Both of these tips are easy to stick to if you don't go where people are drinking.
[+] [-] yters|18 years ago|reply
[+] [-] randomuttering|18 years ago|reply
[+] [-] jdavid|18 years ago|reply
[the Game] - this book is about the secret lives of pickup artists and their quest to find either a Beta or Alpha Gal. This book offers- ZERO advice if you are looking for a Gamma.
[The Art of Deception: Controlling the Human Element of Security] - from Kevin Mitnick, one of the fore-most books on social engineering. Reading this book kept us out of a few scams.
[+] [-] wehriam|18 years ago|reply
[How to Succeed with Women] - Sounds cheesy, but goes over the basics that "geeks" often miss, including dressing appropriately, grooming, and polite conversation.
[He's Just Not That Into You] - Manual for women on how to tell if a guy doesn't care about them. Useful for learning about behaviors to avoid and their underlying reasons.
[Self-Made Man: One Woman's Journey into Manhood and Back] - Can't recommend this one enough. Norah Vincent lived for a year as a man, and reports back on the challenges and successes she had. Invaluable for understanding both men and women.
[+] [-] nomad|18 years ago|reply
[+] [-] kj400|18 years ago|reply
those express exactly (exactly!) as I feel. Let's see how much more we can relate. Do you also:
-Think that you are quite a weird yet funny individual, and wish you can show that to the people you know, but somehow can't? -Also, you are often feel "closed-out" when another exuberant person comes on scene. Also, you have no problem chatting, emailing, etc. and can express yourself without limitation that way. -Speeches are easy because everyone uniformly has their attention on you, but when you are in a casual group situation and have to vie for attention it gets intimidating (and you will undoubtedly reprimand yourself for later). -You also find it hard to come out and say something once you already start a pattern of not saying anything, as you begin to become over-anxious about people's reaction to your change. ...
this list can go on and on...if you're not looking at this thread anymore, yters, at least i got to spill my guts out which doesn't feel that bad. If you want to continue the list, i'd love to hear other people's situations as well, we can treat it as a fun little game.
[+] [-] yters|18 years ago|reply
Spilling my guts is something that's helpful for me too.
[+] [-] aneesh|18 years ago|reply
When you go to social events, go with a friend and make it a friendly competition to see who can meet the most interesting people.
Volunteer to do as many public speaking things as you can. And just generally force yourself out of your comfort zone. Reading won't get you very far, it's just practice practice practice.
[+] [-] Dylanfm|18 years ago|reply
[+] [-] dataangel|18 years ago|reply
The right course of action will then depend on the insecurity, but exercise and improved health generally boosted my confidence. If you experience anxiety over others judging you, consider that in most situations the person you're worried about probably isn't paying much attention to you, and even if they do notice you do something odd, they won't necessarily remember it; everything only revolves around you in _your_ head. Most of all, just get off your butt and do something about whatever bothers you -- if you're embarrassed by your long hair, get a haircut. A surprising number of my own insecurities were things like that -- easily fixable if I only took the time to calm down, consider them, and make a list of solutions.