Ask HN: Offer of Employment retracted

[joboffer]

I was offered a Senior RoR dev position at a 50-ppl funded and revenue-generating bay area company last week. I accepted, signed, and was excited to join this company. Subsequently I gave my two-week notice at my current job (not in the bay area). They have started my exit process here.

This afternoon I got a call from the HR that they are retracting my offer as "circumstances have changed and they are eliminating the position". I am literally shocked as I have a perfectly good, well-paying job at a Fortune 500 company where I've worked for 5+ yrs that I resigned from to join this small company.

What is my recourse in this situation? I was told by the Engineering Manager in this company that I got two thumbs up from all the interviewers and they were looking forward to me joining. He even sent me tech documents to go over a couple days ago.

I don't know what to do. Not only does this affect my employment situation but also my immigration situation. Not having a job impacts my ability to stay in the US.

I can't go back to my current team now as it will not only look ridiculous but my commitment will be questioned as well.

Please advise. I'm just really distressed and upset right now.

[patio11]

Talk to a lawyer and ask what "detrimental reliance" means. (Short version: what you just did owing to representation that they had a job for you. Comes with damages.)

Let your old company tell you you can't have your job back, don't make that decision for them.

[tptacek]

Careful about paying a lawyer up front, though, because it's apparently very hard to make a detrimental reliance claim about a rescinded at-will job offer; it appears to be impossible in several states (at least Florida, Louisiana) and very hard elsewhere.

In the US, most jobs are at-will (you can be fired for no reason, and you're not supposed to rely on your employer maintaining your job); a Rails dev job certainly is.

That said: Patrick is almost certainly right that your company will be happy to keep you on. It'd be almost irrational not to.

[joboffer]

I don't want to make a decision for my current company. They may even let me have it back. I'm on very good terms with my team too and they were in fact, disappointed to see me go.

I'd just hate myself to go back with my head hung in shame telling them that 'oh my job didn't work out'...take me back. I had a farewell lunch yesterday. Everyone in my extended team knows I'm leaving. My exit interview is planned for early next week and they're processing my final paystubs.

I can't believe this level of unprofessionalism exists.

[retube]

> Let your old company tell you you can't have your job back, don't make that decision for them.

This. If you were leaving on good terms, and were a valued member of the firm, there's absolutely no reason why they wouldn't take you back. In fact, they should be glad to keep you!

There's no shame in having wanted to try something new. People move shops all the time. So this time you got unlucky with the move, but no biggy. Just be upfront with your current employer and tell them what's happened.

[mikeryan]

The key here is damages. ie. what have you lost. If you ask for your old job back and they don't offer it then you're in a stronger position to show damages. If they do offer it - well then you're in better shape then you are now.

Just another point in the "suck it up and ask for your old job back" camp.

[anigbrowl]

Sorry, no - his immigration situation is the priority, and if it turns out that he can collect damages (insufficient data to say), they would include the cost of the immigration lawyer.

[rantfoil]

Posterous is hiring, and we love Ruby on Rails. Let me know if you'd like to talk. Perhaps we can make lemonade from these lemons. http://posterous.com/jobs

[cadr]

Blurb (Bay Area print-on-demand publishing company) is hiring Rails developers as well: http://www.blurb.com/join_us

Good luck! :)

[wheaties]

Now that is why I love HN, SO, and all these tech-nerd websites. Community.

[fizx]

http://twitter.com/job.html?jvi=owPbVfwb,Job

[joboffer]

Sent you an email. Thanks for reaching out.

[dotBen]

Posterous, Twitter and loads of others are great places to work.

Specific opportunities aside, I think the point made here (and elsewhere in this thread) is that there are plenty of RoR jobs in The Bay Area - and if you come out here and hang out you'll be in a job within 2 weeks.

I'm sure most of the bigger/funded startups would support the legal costs of a port on an H1b, if that is what you have.

If you go back to your old employer, which is an option, aside from the pride issue I think you would also out of professionalism owe them 3-6 months before you left again, so consider what you want to do carefully.

[barmstrong]

CarWoo! is also in need of an awesome RoR systems engineer: http://carwoo.com/jobs

[jacquesm]

That really really sucks. This happens, fortunately not frequently. I take it you have copies of all the documents and the preceding correspondence as well.

First order of battle is to be candid with your current employer to see if you can get your old job back, you may have to promise them not to leave within the next six months or so, conversely you can expect to be let go at any moment.

Think of it as a stopgap measure.

Next stop after that is the office of a lawyer specializing in HR affairs.

Don't worry too much about looking ridiculous, you would look a lot more ridiculous losing your dwelling or having no food on the table.

Pride is a virtue but fairly useless at this point in time.

[yoak]

I've been a hiring manager for hundreds of programmers over the years at several companies. With the exception of maybe one or two people I was preparing to get rid of anyway, if any one of the people who quit came back during their notice period with this story I would insist that they stay and fight fiercely with any other forces in the company that might resist it. It also wouldn't lower my esteem for the person. I'd be happy that he or she felt that he or she could come back. I have been happy when they've come back. It's never been as soon as this, but I've had people leave to try startups or other jobs and had them not work out. The good ones leave to try things sometimes. I'm happy to be good enough that when it sometimes doesn't work out, even though it is a time to consider many options, they elect to come back.

[ciupicri]

I think that it also depends on what terms people are leaving. It's one thing to say you're leaving because you're starting a company and another thing because you're sick of writing mundane database/web applications, using Waterfall instead of Agile etc. or even worse because almost everything is a mess.

[tworats]

You should absolutely let it be known who this company is. If you're uncomfortable do it anonymously. Rescinding an offer after a candidate has quit an existing job is shameful and anyone doing it should be outed for all potential candidates to know of.

Don't be embarrassed about asking for your old job back.

And ask the 50 person company to reimburse you - they should pay you for the trouble they've caused. If they're not complete idiots they should agree to at least a month's worth of salary, possibly more. Have them do it as a consulting fee if they're not comfortable phrasing it as damages for their rescinded offer.

[bconway]

You should absolutely let it be known who this company is. If you're uncomfortable do it anonymously. Rescinding an offer after a candidate has quit an existing job is shameful and anyone doing it should be outed for all potential candidates to know of.

What if a major funding event had fallen through, and the company rescinding all outstanding offers and cutting expenses allows half of those 50 employees to retain their jobs for another month? Truth is, you have no idea what's going on at that company. These decisions usually aren't made lightly. I say this as someone that's been in the exact same position in the past. Move on, holding a grudge will only hurt the OP.

[noahkagan]

This happened to me at Google pre-ipo:( You are out of luck. In California job positions are at-will... I'd most likely go back to your old company, look for another one or just start a new company.

I know a few good Bay Area companies that are hiring if you are interested...

[chegra]

You mind sharing the details of your story?

[justin]

Might not have the taste any longer to join another startup, but Justin.tv is hiring engineers and if you want to continue on to move to the Bay Area you should check us out. /shameless plug

In any case remember tomorrow is another day and surely things will work out.

[lippe_maia]

One thing I would do is figure out whether they got some information about you that made them not want to bring you on or whether some disruptive event happened at the company. If there some information or misinformation out there that would cause someone to rescind a job offer, it's very important that you know about it.

Beyond that, it seems like you should find a job at another company or try to get your old job back. A lawsuit seems really complicated and unlikely to get much for you.

[dotBen]

It's a nice idea and worth asking but many employers are loathed to give critical feedback these days for fear of being sued (and even more so if they rescinded the offer and so the individual might have a case for damages)

[qhoxie]

Hi joboffer,

I'm an engineer at comparably-sized RoR based company in SF, and we are looking for more people to join the team. If you'd like, please get in touch: [email protected]

I'd be interested in hearing about your goals and filling you in on the engineering culture here.

[joboffer]

Emailed you.

[zackola]

+1 more for trying to get your job back. When I left my corporatey job of 5+ years to join a 10 person startup in August 2008 as I walked out the door on my last day the CEO said something I'll never forget - "If you ever need a job, just call me." Total class. If you've done good work for someone and they aren't morons, of course they will want you back whether it's a year in the future or a week :)

[mattsoldo]

The startup has committed what is known legally as "Promissory estoppel", basically a broken promise. In general they are liable for any reasonable expenses that you have incurred with the assumption that they would keep the promise. If for example you had already moved to the bay area, you could file a lawsuit to recover the cost of the move and the cost of moving back.

If you do want to get any monetary compensation from the company, I would suggest bypassing the recruiter and speaking with a founder or executive at the company directly. Hopefully they will be motivated to do the "right thing", and they will certainly have an interest in preserving their reputation.

[abalashov]

Good faith is usually an adequate defense to that, otherwise changing circumstances of any kind, in any situation would turn into legal liabilities universally, which is clearly untenable.

[suhail]

We're hiring, email us: [email protected]

[jdbeast00]

i know working for the man isn't popular around these parts, but if someone is looking for a programming job in DC let me know. Its a govt job but I love working here. Lots of freedom to work on projects that you want.

[cloudkj]

This exact thing happened to someone I know. He got a call right as he was leaving his old job on his last day. The guy said something along the same lines - due to changing circumstances, the original position we were offering you has been eliminated. The guy was flabbergasted, of course, but just ended up going back to the old company anyway. I'm pretty sure if you want, you can get your job back. Unless you were leaving on bad terms or there's something more to the situation.

To make it a little easier, you can just join another team at the same company instead. That way it's a little less awkward.

[tdfx]

You really need to out the company that did this. If not for revenge, do it so that they can't screw anyone else over in a similar situation.

[jacquesm]

No, sorry he should not do that. His situation is precarious enough as it is, he should play his cards very carefully and not do anything rash or out of revenge.

[joboffer]

I don't want to out the company publicly. I'd rather not burn bridges. I just don't want to get into any more mess than has already been created.

[fofofofo]

Stick your tail between your legs and ask for your old job back. - Like the old man always says: "It's best not to burn bridges".

[jamesbkel]

Ask for the old job back... but explain the situation, it doesn't sound like there's any reason you need to 'stick your tail between your legs'.

[mattmanser]

Name and shame the buggers.

[mpk]

As much as I share this sentiment, I'd advise against it.

They were very unprofessional and left you in the lurch, but that's not a reason for you to hit the blogs and start throwing mud.

In a few years this company may not even be around any more, but naming and shaming with posts and comments on the net will be around long after this is all a distant memory and that will reflect very badly on you wrt future employers.

[Andys]

Agreed! I think this is one of the worst things a company can do. They shouldn't be able to do it without harming their reputation.

[mattew]

People quit jobs all the time. For you, this is a big deal because you don't quit jobs all that often. I suggest that you explain to your employer what happened, and ask for your current job back. Chances are they will be happy to have you back.

[jacquesm]

For him it is a big deal because his residence status depends on his employment.

[mdoar]

> Stick to your existing employer. This event might be > embarrassing but everyone will get over it.

I agree. Once a company has made the offer, it's not illegal to withdraw it, but it certainly shows a lack of organization and a scummy level of honesty. Next time you want to jump, have the new company pay for moving costs and immigration lawyer fees up front. That should stop them being such jerks again.

[gerakinis]

If you have the job offer back from them, with their signature on it as well your own, then I would also recommend outing the offending company... That is probably one bridge you can afford to burn - and current and future employees of the company all will probably see the information as valuable.

If you never got a signed copy of the job offer, then I would think your options are fairly limited.

Best of luck, either way.

[jemfinch]

For a start, you could publicize the name of the faithless company and give them some bad press (and prevent others here at HN from potentially encountering the same problem).