Ask HN: Best Developer Linux Laptop?

[khandelwal]

What's a good laptop to install Linux (Ubuntu) on? I'm looking to buy a new machine for work. System76 seems to make good laptops. Does anyone have experience with them? Is there anything else you would recommend?

People seem to rave about their MacBook Pros. Is it easy to make the switch from Ubuntu? Do I easily get all the software I'll need (svn, git, django, python, vim)?

Essentially I think, my question is, is the experience on a MBP so much better, that it's worth having to learn the MacOS platform?

[yummyfajitas]

If you want to do development in a language other than python/ruby, or even want to use python libraries written in c, avoid the macbook. If you are certain you will stick to {svn, git, django, python, vim}, you'll be fine. My mac ownership timeline:

Day 1: Ooh, pretty.

2-3 days: I fucking hate iTunes. Luckily ports install mpd works.

1 month: Ooh, the pretty magsafe connector saved me from dropping it when I tripped over the wire.

1.5 months: Arrgh, finally numpy works.

2 months: I miss XMonad.

3 months: Fuck, random C/C++ library (e.g., amqp_lib, boost for a while, quantlib, some Fortran medical imaging libraries) doesn't work. Or maybe it would work if I messed around with it more. Neither do many Haskell libraries (e.g. HFuse). I never managed to get postgres working either, though I've heard others have.

4 months: I want to get work done. Open up virtualbox, boot ubuntu server in a VM.

2 years later: load linux onto a thinkpad. Woohoo!

[edit: I am being a little unfair to the macbook. It has one fantastic feature which I still miss: keynote + LaTeXit + that little remote control. This makes pretty and very effective scientific presentations. OpenOffice Impress is not in the same league. It's less relevant to me now, since I'm no longer an academic mathematician.

Also, I don't mean to be unduly negative on macs. They just didn't satisfy me as a development box.

Lastly, things might have changed recently. I gave away my macbook early this year.]

[tkaemming]

Odd — I'm running Snow Leopard and haven't had any issues with many of the libraries or apps you mentioned (boost, ampqlib, postgresql), although it's probably worth noting that I installed them all through Homebrew (http://www.github.com/mxcl/homebrew/).

[buro9]

Uncanny. I'm also 4 months in and am running Ubuntu in VMWare. That's now where I spend all of my time and I'm wondering why I haven't just dual-booted already or just over-written the OSX partition.

[timwiseman]

I must say that while I am not a huge fan of OSX, Macs have amazingly well designed hardware. I remembering staring and marvelling at the magsafe power cord the first time I saw it, and every piece of the hardware is well made too.

[technomancy]

Macs are a lot more solidly-built than they used to be, but there are a few of things still keeping them from being competitive with Thinkpads. 0) They don't try to compete on screen resolution. The 13-inch Macbook screen is only 800 pixels tall, which is fewer pixels than my phone. 1) They're quite heavy. In particular the 13-inch is only marginally lighter than the 15-inch. 2) The glossy screens make them unusable outdoors.

Perhaps if you mostly keep your laptop on your desk this wouldn't be a big deal, but it rules them out for people who like to move around.

[tjr]

Just to toss this question in, because I've seen lots of people make a similar comment, but never have really seen an explanation as to why: what is the problem with iTunes?

For me, I don't do much in the way of using iTunes; I set up a play list, press play, minimize it, and enjoy listening to music while I do other things. Maybe I'm not a music player power user?

[more_original]

I had almost exactly the same experience. I had a Mac (Powerbook) for almost 3 years and could get work done, but development was sometimes a hassle where it shouldn't have been (just to upgrade gcc one had to download 2gigs of XCode; installing exotic C/C++ libraries had to be done by hand; any X11-app, like inkscape, is a real pain to use; things like that). And in the end I was only using apps that have a natural home on Linux anyway (vim, latex, ocaml, java, inkscape).

I now run Ubuntu on a Thinkpad and that "Just Works" for development more than the Powerbook ever did.

[fnl]

I use OSX 10.6 for C and Python, at times Cpp and only if forced to I even do Ruby or Java development on my MBPs (got two - boast...). I do not like either fink or MacPorts and install everything myself. So far, I have not encountered a single library or program I needed and was not able to install after some research at worst. This means virtually all essential C and C++ libraries mentioned in these posts (I do not bother with "junk" - and OSX comes with a sensible default selection, too). The only big boo-hoo is that OSX' Python build is a narrow build, but fixes a socket problem that makes using MacPython slightly unattractive. So, if you really only want hardcore development from your beloved shell and vi, get a laptop and run Gentoo. If you want to enjoy digital media (movies, sound, etc.) while working and want to have a consistent and interoperable UI experience, go Mac. Period.

[thecoffman]

I do my primary development on a Mac and haven't had problems with boost, etc. I occasionally run into dependency problems or other frustrations, but no more than I would on any other system. I just enjoy the overall flexibility of having the POSIX system for development, but a ui that doesn't look and work like it thrown together by some kid in a garage when I want just want to web surf or play media, etc. I would highly recommend going the Mac route personally , but it really boils down to personal preference.

[vilya]

I agree, but you forgot to mention the killer issue (for me): there's no '#' key. Having to press Alt+3 for a '#' gets annoying pretty quickly when you're coding.

It's even worse if you're running Linux on the MacBook. You have to fiddle with a mysteriously named keyboard preference ("Key to choose 3rd level") to get even the Alt+3 combination to work - and once it does, you can no longer Alt+Tab to switch between windows. Fortunately you can choose a different key; the best compromise I've found so far is to the right Alt key. That way you can enter '#' symbols and Alt+Tab back and forth, but it turns what should be a single keystroke into a two handed combination.

That and the lagging OpenGL support are why my next computer won't be a Mac.

[boothead]

I recently (2 days ago) installed refit on my macbook pro and now have a dual boot with ubuntu 10.10 (which, by the way, rocks so hard I might not boot back into OSX again).

That's the best of both worlds for me: mac hardware, OSX for my wife and ubuntu for me. Perfect.

[eru]

Can't you just run Linux on your Macbook?

[slantyyz]

You would have saved a lot of time, pain and effort if you just spent Day 1 installing Linux on your laptop whether it was a dual boot or via virtualization.

[aconbere]

I can not rave enough about the Lenovo X201 small, fast, usable. I switched to the lenovo machine after using a MBP for the previous 4 years. But it really depends on what you need and want. I commute with my laptop, travel with my laptop, and generally like to carry it arround. I'm not willing to accept either of the choices that Apple has for me, excessive weight (MBP 15' or 17'), or last generation processors (MBP 13').

That being said almost all the developers I know use MBPs. Just not me. I was CPU constrained for the work I was doing, wanted to easily upgrade my hard drive, and spent all my time in OSX in XMonad anyway. So making "the switch" was simple for me.

EDIT - adding my one X201 complaint

No built in digital video out (W.T.F.) I'm sure this is to accommodate some suit who has to attach to projectors. But feels like the past. If you shell out for a docking station you'll get DV but otherwise you're out of luck. (This is not an issue with Lenovo's larger laptops like the T410 etc.)

[notauser]

I tried out a X201 and really liked it, but it has two other problems as well as the video out which were deal breakers for me:

- Low screen resolution.

- Very tall screen (especially for a 12" - due to the huge bezel) so it won't open comfortable in the back of an economy seat.

I ended up with the bottom of the range Vaio Z series instead (1600x900 res 13.3" screen that is more than an inch shorter than the X201, with HMDI and VGA out). I run Ubuntu in a VM 99.9% of the time. That setup is working really well for me and I actually like the keyboard at least as much as the IBM one.

Running Linux in VMWare player doesn't seem to be any slower in practice thanks to VT, and it has greatly improved the ease of installing, upgrading and backing up my main Linux installation. I don't even bother to back up Windows - if it goes wrong I'll just blow it away and do a clean install.

[Dav3xor]

Another nice thing about the X20x, and Thinkpads in general, is the keyboard. It's well laid out, the key action is decent, it has a handy light that actually illuminates the keys in the dark. Also, there's no optical drive, so you get a fast machine that's also seriously small -- you can pick it up by pinching the top of the screen.

Also, We had a Tandy Coco when I was a kid, I've had enough of chiclet keyboards. I'll be happy when Apple moves away from that.

[aliguori]

Heh, I'm not a suit but I do appreciate being able to connect to a projector. Since the X201 doesn't have a CD-ROM, a docking station is basically a prerequisite IMHO.

I love my X201. It's very light but has a full size keyboard. I tend to have problems with RSS so this was a major consideration.

I went for the SSD option which I think was completely worth it. Boot of a standard Linux distribution is extremely quick (around 10s).

[sigil]

For the past 6 years I've used Thinkpad T40, T41 and T42s exclusively. These models tend to have solid hardware support under Linux and FreeBSD including suspend/resume and wireless.

I've come to accept the fact that every couple years I do some serious damage to my laptop, so it's a huge plus if 1) I can replace parts myself and 2) I can cheaply and easily buy a replacement laptop if the thing is totalled. Both are the case with Thinkpads. The aftermarket is still healthy, I have no problem finding T40-T42s here for about $200.

Between repairs, battery upgrades every few years, and the few times I've had to replace a laptop wholesale, my cost of ownership is probably about $200 / year.

YMMV, but I've found this setup more than adequate for coding & browsing, and have no reason to upgrade to a newer model.

[silentbicycle]

Nth-ing old thinkpads. I have a t41, it's really nice. I'm going to get an t60 when (if!) it kicks the bucket. (Running OpenBSD on mine.)

[tnorthcutt]

OP (or anyone else) - I saw this on slickdeals.net and decided to post here in case you decide you want one: http://slickdeals.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2292647

[mahmud]

You can't go wrong with a Thinkpad, in fact, I wouldn't use any other laptop if it came free. I ran thinkpads exclusively for the last 10 years. My last desktop machine had an AMD Duron and 256 megs, that's long ago it was.

They're not the most good looking, but they're rugged and functional as hell. A Thinkpad looks the same after 5 years, most others peel and scratch. When I was backpacking, my road-mate had his macbook come apart .. literally, the case feel out of the bottom and the top came apart. Mine? I threw it into truck beds, buses, ferries, sat on it, slept on it, and it endured everything including the humidity in the Mekong and freezing weather in north-east China, not to mention power surges.

[kaens]

T410 here, after a long stint with a T41. It's a solid, solid machine.

And it has channels in it that will drain liquids spilled on it away from components and through little holes in the body! I have not, and do not intend to test this.

[mironathetin]

You cannot go wrong with a Thinkpad, but you can do better, IMHO.

I enjoyed my last Thinkpad (t40) a lot. Still have and use it after 6 years. But especially with linux, battery life wasn't very good (now the battery is completely dead of course). The fan never stopped.

To answer the question of the OP: yes, it is totally worth to learn Mac OS. First, the effort is small. Second, you will save a lot of admin time. Third, backup is easy, reliable and bootable. This alone recommends Macs as developer notebooks.

[phamilton]

My MBP went through the window of my car when I rolled it 4 times. Still works great.

One thing people say about Apple products is you pay a premium for the same hardware. I was talking to a friend and told him about a few unique bits of Apple Hardware.

1) The touchpad. There's a reason people now use the Apple Touchpad on desktops. It works really well. 2) Battery Life. I frequently sit through 5-6 hours of class on a single battery charge. My MBP is a mid-2009. I've heard the newer MBPs last even longer. 3) The unibody. I think a few other companies do this now, but the MBP is very low profile, and is built solidly. 4) Backlit keyboard. I remember my old days of groping in the dark for various symbols and things. The backlight makes a difference.

OS aside, if I were looking for a new laptop, these are the things I would look at. CPU speed doesn't effect me nearly as much as Battery life. 4GB RAM is pretty standard these days.

As far as OS X is concerned, I develop "in the cloud". I'm a heavy Vim/gdb user, so if I need a low level environment, I've got plenty of servers I can ssh into. If it's something like Rails or Python, it works perfectly in OS X.

[Confusion]

I don't have any experience with other laptops, but both my previous Thinkpad Z61m and my current Lenovo T500 have been great at running Linux and generally running without a problem. The only thing that really sucks are the batteries. On average they last around 18 months, so you have to take 2 * $100 for new batteries into account.

[pw]

Have a T61. Very solid. Wonderful keyboard. But...horrible LCD. Now most laptop screens aren't very good (MBPs being a notable exception), but this is bad enough that it's almost unbearable if you're used to a desktop LCD or decent laptop screen. And, unfortunately, poor screen quality seems to be a Thinkpad family trait.

[Jun8]

I went through the same exact process you are going through a few months ago, my manager wanted to replace our laptops with new, Linux-based ones and asked us what to get. I switched to a 15" MBP, being never a Mac person before.

The first week or so was painful. Mac OS wasn't as intuitive as I though it would be and it may be hard to find how to do things as a power Linux user. But after that initial learning curve, god it's good. Just the hardware itself is worth it, the feel, and of course the screen, which is one of the most important parts of a laptop I think. Finding and installing packages is OK with Homebrew (or MacPorts), not as intuitive as apt perhaps, though.

I have friends using a Thinkpad and if you ask me again today, I would definitely repeat my decision to go with the MBP. Maybe you're giving away a wee bit of Ubuntu goodness but you gain tremendously from hardware and being able to use other Mac software, which is very very good.

[jacoblyles]

I feel stupid whenever I sit down at a computer without multi-touch and spotlight now. The software of a mac is just so nice and polished.

[maco]

The screen's the most important part? I think it's the keyboard. Typing without looking isn't a problem.

[Symmetry]

Pretty much everyone I know who runs Linux on their laptop uses a Thinkpad. They don't come with Linux installed but they tend to have good driver support and pretty good quality.

You might also consider system76, but I don't have experience with those.

EDIT: I'm currently running Linux on my T410. Suspend was broken with Ubuntu 10.4, but everything works perfectly now with 10.10.

[kls]

Yes the MBP is a good machine, and you can get all of the items you listed on OSX. It is a good development platform if you decide to go that route. I have worked exclusively on MBP for the last two generations of my machines. This is coming from a guy that got burnt really bad on the 68-PPC conversion a while back (had basically a brick within 6mo of buying a new 68). That is another story but sufficient to say, I swore off Apple computers and after using a MBP for a while, I decided that it really was worth the switch. I don't consider myself a fanboy so I feel that I offer a pragmatic opinion to people on the advantages of switching.

Also a thing to consider is that with the MBP if you decide that OSX is not for you, you can always install Linux or do Bootcamp and dual boot, or run Virtual Box and have a Linux VM. I do the latter for any odds and ends Windows only software that I need to run, but those are getting fewer and fewer these days.

If you decide to stay in the PC world I recommend Sager laptops. They are probably close to or superior to the MBP in terms of quality.

[tsuraan]

For the past few years, I've been using a Sony Z590. My major concerns with a laptop are battery life, portability, and screen real estate. For the Z590, I get 8-10 hours of battery life (8 with wifi on, 10 on a plane). The machine is a 13.3" laptop, and it's light, so portability is there. Those two features can be found in other laptops, but the screen is a 13.3" 1600x900 display; I haven't found any laptops from any other manufacturers that do that on such a small laptop. The new Sony Z-series have full 1080p displays, so they're a bit higher res at the same size.

The machine runs Linux well enough; suspend works, all the hardware works except for the fingerprint reader and the built-in camera. The video is a hybrid graphics with nVidia and Intel; IME nVidia sucks under linux, so I've just had it disabled and use only the GM45 card. I've heard that the latest Z series users are sometimes having trouble with their video, but I think the latest rc kernel has the support required (always the case with linux and latest hardware...).

As far as using Linux on a Macbook, how do you get around the lack of a middle and right click? Is the multi-touch/gesture stuff actually in the touchpad hardware so Linux sees a proper three button scroll mouse, or what? I think I'd go mad trying to use Linux on a single-button touchpad.

[balu]

I just switched to Ubuntu again - on a two year old Macbook Pro 4,1 though.

To tell a bit about the software side on a Mac: As long as you don't mess with the system, it runs nicely. Recently I wanted to have a look at clutter ("software library for creating (...) graphical user interfaces") which depends on newer versions of the libraries that ship with OS X. After fiddling around with building it myself (or building Formulae for Homebrew which is a simple and nice package manager for OS X) I decided to go with Ubuntu and Awesome as my window manager. There was just too many barriers in the way. For web development, OS X was nice. Unfortunately I'm also toying around with a lot of music software which rarely has an OSS equivalent.

Some points on Apple hardware: The build quality is very nice. It might not have the latest stuff, but all components they ship are well integrated and usually don't get you into hassle (as long as you stick with OS X). I honestly don't want to miss the multitouch trackpad.

Conclusion: If you can live with the system that OS X is, go for it. Perhaps you'll get pissed some day about the missing freedom some day. Don't expect that the hardware in a MacBook will fully supported in a Linux distro

[kls]

For web development, OS X was nice

I honestly don't want to miss the multitouch trackpad

These are the key take aways, OSX is good for web / mobile development and the track pad is one hell of a plus for going with a MBP. I would not use OSX for C or C++ development or any system development for that matter, but for web and mobile it is a great system.

[Maro]

On a MBP you can easily run all the software you listed. We use MBP for cross-platform C++ and Python programming. A somewhat complete list of tools we use in our startup: XCode, Textmate, Araxis Merge, Makefiles, python, svn (or Versions), git (or SmartGit), python, vim, joe, OpenOffice, MS Office (the new 2011 version rocks), Keynote, FF, Chrome, Safari, Pixelmator, TexShop, CyberDuck, Dropbox, MacPorts.

[djhworld]

'joe'?

[thomas11]

I'm extremely happy with my 11.6" Acer Aspire 1410. There must be newer variants by now. With its one-core Intel CULV it doesn't have much horse power, but then it's dirt cheap. You can get four for the price of a Macbook, which makes you not worry about taking it everywhere. It feels pretty fast doing regular work and programming. Linux works great on it. It still feels like a laptop to me, not like a netbook. There's both VGA (for projectors) and digital video out.

[lfnik]

I have a System76 laptop and I really like it. The built in speakers are terrible but I usually use headphones so who cares. The touch pad buttons are a little stubborn too.

Other than that boot-up time is pretty fast, and I don't spend hours trying to find drivers for hardware. And it cost me half of what a Macbook Pro would.

[chapmanb]

I can second the System76 laptop recommendation. I got a Lemur laptop from them last year:

http://www.system76.com/product_info.php?cPath=28&produc...

Sound, wifi and the camera work fine and it's been through a couple of Ubuntu upgrades with no issues. I was specifically looking for something that would be zero maintenance and have been very happy.

[rbanffy]

It depends on what you are running.

I run Emacs a lot, develop for Django, run Eclipse very rarely and I am quite happy with a very modest Acer netbook. Most of the time, it sits on my desk connected to a big monitor, keyboard and mouse. Web browsing and Flash-heavy sites are a problem, as is the Intel GMA due to the 2048x2048 screen size limitation for hardware acceleration.

I can't overestimate how welcome is the portability it affords carrying my whole "desktop" environment in a small bag. If I drop it, everything important is backed up thanks to the twin miracles of rsync and version control.

I have long given up on high-end notebooks. They are typically big and heavy and faster than I usually need. Also, losing one is a bit more painful than just having to pay US$400 for a faster equivalent and doing an environment restore.

[kgo]

I personally find long-term use of X annoying and clunky, so the Mac interface wins out there. (Please don't try to convince me I'm wrong about X. If you don't have a problem with it, that's cool.)

If you're just doing basic run-of-the-mill web development, and it looks like you are, then a MBP will work just fine. If you're in Vim and Bash all day long, there isn't really much for you to learn. Some things are a little quirky, off the top of my head I think Apache2 is installed in a weird location, and command line app X may not be installed by default, but it's probably no more obscure than switching to a BSD or Solaris.

[futuremint]

I have a ZaReason Strata Pro 13" with an SSD. The processor is by no means fast, but its fast enough for coding & web design. Any heavier work (like high-res graphics, video editing, or intensive compiling) would probably be annoying.

Its a good laptop with Ubuntu 10.10, only thing not working is suspend automatically when the lid is closed.

Money no object and you need Linux than a ThinkPad would be your best bet. Expensive, but awesome keyboards and pretty durable & reliable.

You can install Linux on a MBP as a commenter has already mentioned, but you have to install a weird open source EFI thing for boot, and it'd be tricky to get support for the newest hardware.

Another option is to use Ubuntu in VirtualBox on OS X. You can install all of your favorite Linux packages in OS X, but they're patched and you can't always get the latest release without some work. AFAIK all of the open-source package management systems for OS X are source based so you get to watch things compile. I used to have a MBP and compiling new software was always annoying to me.

[hogu]

how's the battery life on that thing?

[Uchikoma]

Am I the only one who is using a Lenovo machine (X200) and hating it and would do nearly everything to go back to a MBP?

(X200 feels cheap, plastic breaks, lcd dies, battery replaced twice, hibernation does not work all the time, sound problems, logos flew off, ....)

I was using a small Dell laptop at my last job and the quality was much much better than the X200.

Essentially after IBM sold them the quality tanked.

[drats]

For me it's the opposite, I had a white macbook and the casing cracked and the hdd failed (along with an iPhone with 3G that didn't work - powercord that frayed and headphones that died). The X200 on the other hand has a much higher quality keyboard and seems to be a higher quality than all my past Apple products. After being locked into paying for 3G for two years and not having the phone work with it I will not be buying Apple ever again as they have personally cost me hundreds and hundreds and don't support their products in the slightest. That's to say nothing of how Ubuntu decimates the horrible package management on OSX and is light-years ahead in many other areas.

[aidenn0]

MacBook Pros have their ups and downs:

Ups: 1) Really nice construction 2) Really well put together GUI 3) In general it's a nicer experience than a non-mac with similar tech-specs.

Downs: 1) No standard central packaging system; All the software you mention is available on the mac but you have to either: a) Build it yourself b) Use macports or fink, etc. Furthermore, some of the more gui focused things have very nice mac-native ports (e.g. MacVim) but you'll have to track those down yourself. 2) Price. You can get a very nice non-mac laptop every year for the same price as getting the 17" Macbook Pro every 2 years. I compare to the 17" since I won't code on anything with less that 1200 vertical lines. If you plan on only coding with an external monitor, this may not apply. 3) Not super configurable. You get something very well put together and designed, but that also means there aren't a lot of options.

I had the option of getting a macbook pro at work but went with a Dell instead.

[jc00ke]

I'm in total awe of the MBP from a hardware point of view, yet just cannot get myself to spend that much money. I've ran 9.04, 9.10 & 10.04 with little to no problems on a Lenovo Y650 "consumer grade" laptop and have been very happy. 2.53GHz dual core Intel, 4GB RAM, HDMI, wifi, etc, all the same specs as last years MBP, but I paid ~$700 for what was normally a $1300 laptop. Lenovo had $500 off & 12% discount on top of that... for no reason (except to make me happy)

The only upgrade I made was an Intel X25-M 80GB SSD. It screams. Get one, or whatever SSD in that bracket or above that suits your pocketbook.

Last thing: I'm working on a brand new iMac at my current gig and I don't like it. I'm not a fan of OSX. I've tried several times but I just prefer Linux. Debian based systems with apt are so easy. Ports & Fink for OSX suck, so if you do go with a MBP, look into http://j.mp/mxcl-homebrew.

[ohyes]

In contrast to the army of Thinkpad/MBP users; I've been using a (fairly generic) Toshiba laptop (It is an older satellite model) to run Ubuntu. It has been rock solid for me for 2-3 years now.

The key thing is to make sure that all of the hardware in whatever laptop you buy has proper drivers. This can either be accomplished by buying a cheaper laptop with slightly less top of the line hardware (hardware that is slightly aged is more likely to have had someone debugging driver issues on it), or by checking that all of the hardware has appropriate drivers.

http://www.linux-drivers.org/ might be a good starting place.

[bsaunder]

I faced the same question a year ago. My solution was a MBP with Parallels running Ubuntu. I couldn't be happier. I'm still working more in Ubuntu than MacOS, but it's nice to have the fall back of the host operating system.

[metamemetics]

For linux just avoid anything with an ATI graphics card and go with nvidia. ESPECIALLY if you want to attempt triple booting MacOSX\iATKOS on it.

I've gotten good mileage out of a Dell XPS Studio 16 w/ubuntu but can't recommend it due to driver issues with wireless (avoid intel5100) and graphics (radeon hd3760).

If I was buying a new laptop I would search the hackintosh and iATKOS forums to find models that can install OSX out of the box and triple boot it.

After that, figure out exactly what resolution\size pixels per inch you want the display. I like 1600x900 for laptops myself. That should narrow it down to only a couple models.