Ask HN: Over 60 = no engineering jobs?

[anonOver60]

I'm curious - what are engineering managers seeing on my resume that makes them apparently routinely reject my resume? My summary: 35 years in Silicon Valley; 3 STEM undergrad degrees, MS in AI from Stanford, PhD in AI from a top-10 program; ICPC champion; always considered to be an elite programmer; very current knowledge; constant employment; wide variety of skills; management experience with small teams; very stable life; no vices; very healthy and energetic; I get along with everyone and like working in teams.

I've been applying for everything from senior engineer to VP of engineering. Ever since I turned 60 last year, I'm getting no hits on my resume. And yes, I still code (the first and most common question I get) and I still love it. If you were hiring, can you tell me why you might not even do a phone interview? I need to know what (mis)perceptions I apparently need to overcome.

Thanks!

[joewee]

Speaking from experience you need two resumes (I’m much younger, but with a long career). One that’s management focused and one that’s developer focused. Use the appropriate resume for the role you are applying for. Even though I’m a hands on engineer people didn’t want to consider me for roles because I had management experience and they thought the engineering role would be too boring, and vice versa. Reduce your resume to your experience from the last 10 years. They don’t need to see your first job. Don’t put dates next to your degrees. Don’t say “35 years of experience.” You have to accept that there is age discrimination but there is also manager discrimination and developer discrimination and all sorts of biases, you need to use that to your advantage by crafting resumes with different narratives, highlighting different strengths, dependent on the role.

[fatnoah]

Two resumes? Granted, I'm only 43, but each and every resume I send out is tailored to the role I'm applying to. I make sure to highlight experience relevant to the role. Now that I'm mostly on the management side of things, I emphasize outcomes over languages and skills (they're in there, but not as prominent as they once were).

[justinhj]

I've instinctively done this for the last little while (I'm approaching my 50s). I list the last handful of jobs and no dates on the university courses etc. I don't put a huge list of languages and technology I've used, just the most recent and relevant. Not having problems so far.

[joewee]

Also, don’t give salary requirements. I imagine you’re more interested in the work than the money. I am, and I make it clear that salary won’t be the determining factor, but people will assume because of your experience you are going to be too expensive. I would be happy to look at your resume if you want some more feedback.

[southphillyman]

Interesting, I'm in my mid 30s and removed the dates of graduation when I was looking 3-4 yrs ago. The person I had reviewing my resume said removing the dates was a dead give away and they may assume I'm even older than I am so I put it back. Age hasn't been an issue for me yet but I have had people say things like "You don't look like you have a kid that old" and other strange things when we talk about personal things and they find a little about me. Now that I'm even older I may just remove education completely and try to get extra sleep leading up to any interviews to minimize my eye elasticity.

[wnevets]

>Even though I’m a hands on engineer people didn’t want to consider me for roles because I had management experience and they thought the engineering role would be too boring, and vice versa.

I found this to be true a lot of the time. Great idea to tailor your resume to the type of position you're applying for.

[poulsbohemian]

So if you've been in and out of management and technical roles (like myself), how do you make those gaps between two resumes not look like gaps? Or, do you simply address it in interviews when asked?

[ianai]

Agree on using the discrimination to a resumes advantage. I think in IT age and plenty of experience lends itself to either the security or management positions.

[kirkules]

Thank you for being very constructive.

[mchannon]

One theory: The Bay Area has become seriously ageist.

Many people have a hard time accepting working for someone a generation younger than them, and especially hiring a subordinate a generation older than them. The people reviewing your resume and interviewing you won't say it (they're not allowed to by law) but they'll definitely be thinking it, and it ends up being a huge waste of your time.

I genuinely think it's a locale thing. I've found work outside the area to be as high-paying and fulfilling, but without the casting couch feel to the interviewing process. In particular, look to large, legacy established companies trying to stay relevant. Many of them recognize the value of experience and pay accordingly.

[docker_up]

Anything more than 10 years old on your resume is worthless. Yes, you may have 3 STEM undergrad degrees, but no one cares because it's not relevant anymore.

What modern technologies have you recently worked with? What does your resume show, 20 years at the same company, or do you have experience at well-known, "prestigous" companies like FANG? Are you pigeon-holed into a specific area, or are you a generic, back-end or front-end expert that has worked in relevant and useful technologies for 2018?

Also, with 35 years of experience in Silicon Valley, don't you have a network of former coworkers that you can contact for references or jobs?

I'm 50 years old, and I've had no problems getting jobs and recruiters from FANG won't stop contacting me even now. Sure, things might change over the next few years, but I also have a rolodex (old man's terminology) of former coworkers that I routinely have lunch with still and can ask for jobs, etc. I'm sure things will change, but I'm also doing my best to ensure that I can retire in the next 10 years as well.

[sonnyblarney]

"3 STEM undergrad degrees, but no one cares because it's not relevant anymore"

Anyone hiring people for specific things they learned in University is doing absolutely the wrong thing.

Many high end schools don't even have very rigorous applied computing standards, meaning, they might have some hardcore CS stuff, but they don't necessarily encourage good programming habits, patterns, culture etc..

So the education I think always counts for a lot, it's the work experience from 30 years ago that actually may be less relevant.

One opportunity might be to find something 'related' - for example, writing documentation, doing sales support, technical product management - basically anything but front-line engineering. There are a lot of such jobs.

[newtothebay]

As a young professional who's realized the importance of maintaining a network, I'd love to learn how you stay in touch with your former co-workers.

Do you reach out for weekend lunch dates just to chat? Are people open to that (given work, hobbies, kids, etc.)? I'm having a hard time coming with "excuses" and serendipity to stay in touch with people I'm no longer working with.

[rb808]

> rolodex of former coworkers that I routinely have lunch with still and can ask for jobs, etc

Yeah this is an important thing everyone should be doing. I used to be shy about this but everyone is in the same boat and most do appreciate a quick drink or meal every few years to network, even if you're not friends.

[microtherion]

> Yes, you may have 3 STEM undergrad degrees, but no one cares because it's not relevant anymore.

Two of those degrees (MS and PhD) are graduate degrees, not undergrad.

In the specific case of AI, the field has changed massively over the last 10-15 years, so the field-specific knowledge conveyed by degrees further back than that may indeed have depreciated quite a bit.

However, field specific knowledge is not necessarily what makes graduate degrees valuable. It's knowing that you're getting a candidate who knows how to branch out into unknown territory, who knows how to research the relevant literature, who didn't quit when the going got tough, and who can express themselves in comprehensible prose. These qualities don't become irrelevant, even if Isaac Newton was your PhD advisor.

[ido]

I can imagine 50 vs 60+ would make a big difference...In the case of the latter they are much closer to retirement (potentially <5 years vs 15-16 years).

Not saying it should be that way but I bet some people will think a >60 year old may just look to hang around/coast for a few years waiting for retirement.

[Townley]

I wonder if this is less a problem with your skills not keeping up with the industry, and more with your job search practices not keeping up.

I recently helped a friend through a job search, and was shocked by how much the process has changed in the past 3-4 years. Recruiters are inundated with thousands of resumes. So traditional job application practices ("Write a cover letter and email in the resume") or semi-recent practices ("Cast a wide net on Monster, Indeed, LinkedIn...) perhaps no longer have the rate of return that you're expecting.

I read through the book, "What Color is your Parachute: 2018 Edition" to better help my friend, and the book offers full sections on how to do better than just "putting your resume out there." Working personal connections, announcing employment intentions during coding meetups, writing specific emails to companies you respect (independent from whether they're currently hiring for your position) or getting even more creative with getting your info out there... all of the above are practices that might not have been necessary during your last search (they certainly weren't during mine).

Maybe I'm underestimating the massive extent of blatant ageism in the software industry, but I'm quite surprised that someone with your skill set can't yell from a crowded street corner and have six recruiters materialize. That leads me to think it's not a matter of what you're offering, but rather how you're selling.

[echelon]

I'm in Atlanta, and I work for a SF-based tech company. Most of my coworkers are in their 40's and 50's, and a few are 60. In Atlanta nobody cares about age or background. We also have way more diversity by almost every measure - when I fly out to SF, people look and act the same way.

I don't bat an eye when I interview someone older than me. I expect that I'll probably learn a thing or two.

Message me. If you've got that kind of experience, I can get you an interview.

[honkycat]

I feel like Google / Amazon / IBM / any of the larger companies would love to have you on board. Maybe look bigger instead of going for start-ups which are often run by children.

Anymore people like hiring young inexperienced devs they can abuse and pay poorly. And then they wonder why we have to take months and months to pay off technical debt...

Hiring managers and inexperienced management think anybody can learn to code so they just hire who they think is cool. It's a bad trend. So tired of working with people who are fresh out of code bootcamp and are basically useless.

I've posted about this before so I'll repeat myself:

> More than anything have learned that education and training are hugely important and hiring to train leads to mediocre staff who think their two years of development work stack up to your 4 years of college and 6 years of professional experience.

> They take forever to start writing productive code, if they ever bother leaning at all.

> I will never hire someone without a degree or equivalent experience again. Even for Jr. roles

[gambler]

>If you were hiring, can you tell me why you might not even do a phone interview?

Ph.D. in AI will probably scare off anyone who has a typical business app development or integration job. It's just hard to imagine someone with this level of education grinding out bugs in garbage legacy code, or calling vendors to ask why their SOAP web service doesn't work according to documentation.

Now, whether you would even care for such a job is another question. Some of them are quite challenging and require excellent system thinking skills, but there is zero glory in delivering the final product.

I'm not familiar with the specific of Bay Area job market, though.

[grmarcil]

With 35 years experience, I expect that you have a pretty wide professional network - consider whether you're using those connections to get warm introductions and pointed to good-fit jobs to the greatest degree possible.

My apologies if this is stating the obvious, but if your applications are starting with just a resume, you're already at a disadvantage at any age. And I suppose that effect only increases with years of experience and seniority of positions applied to.

[ajaalto]

Use this as your application, don't write anything else:

My summary: 35 years in Silicon Valley; 3 STEM undergrad degrees, MS in AI from Stanford, PhD in AI from a top-10 program; ICPC champion; always considered to be an elite programmer; very current knowledge; constant employment; wide variety of skills; management experience with small teams; very stable life; no vices; very healthy and energetic; I get along with everyone and like working in teams.

[seattle_spring]

So a few impressive but outdated credentials alongside a dozen completely subjective opinions.

[duxup]

Heck I'm only over 40.

I did a handful of interviews at places where folks who I went to school with also interviewed.

I got a lot of "culture" questions. My younger classmates, did not hear the world "culture" in their interviews, ever.

It's hard not to be pessimistic and assume "culture" was about age...

[nnash]

Try being a minority, and consistently get rejected because you aren't a good "culture fit" on an all white team.

edit: I didn't mean to sound like I was trivializing your experience. The "culture fit" is really nasty and sucks for everyone who isn't "the norm".

[anonzzzz]

I worked at an HR tech startup that did recruiting services for a lot of seed/series A companies. Maximum ages for roles were discussed openly and nobody even considered the possibility doing so might be illegal.

[joewee]

“Culture” is a catch all for lack of rapport. Either because of their biases or our own. Which is fine for me, I probably wouldn’t have liked working with them if the most significant finding they come away from the interview is that I want to go home at a reasonable hour or I’m not a sports fan. Lol. Finding a good job fit takes time unfortunately. Having a network helps, because you probably already have shared values.

Perhaps focus on rapport at the start of your interviews?

[rpoconn1]

BTW, That's happening to everyone. Think about Uber, which was toxic because they didn't try to foster a good culture.

Welcome to the "culture" wars.

[gorbachev]

Trust me, this was a good thing.

If you had been hired in those companies, you wouldn't have lasted long. Unless you have a supernatural talent on filtering out bullshit.

[conductr]

It also has to do with will you hang out and play ping pong all night or if you’re an 8-5er

[dep_b]

Well US companies don't ask for details that could give away your age. I mean removing the date of your graduation and only including the last 10 ("relevant") years of your experience is not a crime in any sense. I don't feel my age is as much a problem as raising my rates. That definitely makes things a bit more challenging.

I have two experiences in the last year that were a bit strange. One was a guy that kind of already hired me and casually asked my age to never reply again after I disclosed it. OK. The other one was a company that had two early twenties co-founders I worked for remotely for more than half a year and were genuinely surprised about my age when I stepped in their offices for the first time. Still working for them though.

In Europe a lot of companies (I think it happened with a German and a Swiss company) straight ask for your age, which somewhat shocked me when seeing it for the first time after mostly dealing with US companies.

On the other hand some US companies asked me if my "race"* is "Latino" whatever the hell that means. Sometimes I feel like it I guess? Depends on the music? Me and most of the other people I see in my country look pretty caucasian to me though. Must even be more confusing to black people from Latin-American countries. Do I get a double race bonus or should I pick the one that gives me most benefits? If so which one?

* they asked it in a very PC way and made it an optional field

[fecak]

I'm a professional resume writer and job search strategy consultant (20 years of tech recruiting experience), and I'd be open to taking a look to see what the issue might be (see my profile for contact info). It might not even be the resume, but instead your approach to how you're applying. If you're just sending resumes through Indeed and hoping for responses, you're doing it wrong.

The age thing may be an issue of course. If it's abundantly obvious from your resume that you are 60 or older, a reader may make assumptions about you that aren't true. Once a client reaches 40 I typically start to at least address the possibility of ageism and options to mitigate the risk if they are interested.

There are even some simple things such as resume formatting that could be at play. For examples, resumes with tables and images can be more difficult for ATS systems to parse.

Dozens of possibilities. I'm happy to take a look if you'd like.

[TomVDB]

I assume that you've worked with 60 yo customers in the past.

What's your experience with placing them?

[infecto]

Serious question. Is ageism a huge deal? I am not arguing it does not exist but I think about what I have seen in the interviews I have done. We all have biases and I will never be completely unbiased but I try to at least be aware. I sometimes feel that ageism is actually the filter. I notice people I have worked with they at some point stop caring and they kind of give up. They don't stay relevant with whats happening in the industry.

Some of the issues I have seen that can be construed as ageism I will list.

* Candidates lack of awareness. They have a 2-5 page resume. I see the resume and I wonder how unaware they are. Yes, resumes do not matter but when I get 3 pages filled with large paragraphs I worry the candidate lacks awareness. So far its been a good indicator. * Candidates who belittle me during the interview process. * Candidates who have not kept up with technology. No I don't expect you to know the latest framework but understanding patterns that have emerged in the past 5 years seem relevant. I dislike the latest and greatest technology but its important to understand the general trends. * Candidates that generally who have had zero prep for the interview process expecting the resume/experience to tell all. Yes, algorithms are not the best determining factor but it's at least a minor indicator. When we work through a problem does the other person just give up?

Let me state again that I believe it exists but I sometimes have a hard time separating true ageism and just a clear distinction between people who have stayed relevant and not relevant.

[mattlondon]

With respect I think that those characteristics could equally apply to anyone - old, young or somewhere in the middle. I wouldn't say any of those are specific to people approaching their retirement age.

For example I interviewed someone in their early 20s a little while ago who knew Angular 1 inside-out and to the absolute finest detail, but that is obsolete now that we're on Angular 6/React etc - they had never used modern Angular, Typescript or React... just good old Angular1 + JS. Did they stay relevant? nope. Are they old? nope. The benefit of the doubt for the early-20s person could be to just assume they don't know Angular6+TS because they were working on legacy code and didn't get the chance, but should I treat the early-20s person any different from a 60s person all other things being equal? nope. I am sure they could both pick up the new skills just as easily.

I know a lot of retired people socially (parents/friends of friends, neighbors etc - alas not that many from work) who are still 100% as sharp as a tack - quick-witted, intelligent, energetic etc. It would be unfair to use their age as a filter based on assumptions of how they would perform in an interview based on how other entirely different individuals have behaved in previous interviews.

[ido]

    They have a 2-5 page resume.

I assume the critique here is that a 2 page resume is too long?

[ChuckMcM]

Feel free to contact me (email is in my profile) if you have specific questions.

A couple of things stand out;

1) Your resume has the potential of being very intimidating to someone, sometimes less is more. Trim it to just what they hiring manager cares about.

2) You said "Everything from senior engineer to VP of engineering" have you applied to "just engineering" roles?

I ask because both senior engineering and VP roles typically have a very high level of "hiring risk" associated with them. Specifically, if you are interviewing at places outside the network of people who know your work, whether or not your idea of how to fill a senior role is the same as the company where you are interviewing its a very real question. It can cause a tremendous amount of churn in an organization to hire someone in at a senior level who ends up not getting along with the rest of the team or company.

As a result you may find it easier to work initially at a lower level and then negotiate a raise/promotion rather than jumping in high. Everyone's situation is always a bit different.

[kareemsabri]

I think a lot of startups are, frankly, ageist. They worry about "culture fit" from an older guy. There's a lot of twenty-something running around. They may also worry you don't want to put in the late nights and long hours they want due to perhaps family obligations, or that you may want more than they can afford to pay.

If you're still on the market, we're hiring, and not ageist. I'm the CTO, 34.

[iamdave]

They may also worry you don't want to put in the late nights and long hours they want due to perhaps family obligations

Unless there's something broken, a system down, or a critical issue that needs to be fixed yesterday, I got news for you: I ain't staying late either.

I'm 32 with a dog and a highly opinionated cat. Hire me, or don't. Plenty of other companies out there that respect work life balance and don't insist on the awful notion of "well you don't have anyone waiting on you to get home anyway, why do you care?" (of course I'm deliberately phrasing that awfully, but let's be honest with ourselves here).

[datavirtue]

They are too young to know that older guys don't have to work 60 hours to turn out 20 hours of work.

[austincheney]

Abandon the Bay Area.

It seems to me that ethnocentricity is rampant in the bay as a sub cultural norm. For example the Bay Area is big on tolerance, but if you choose to voice political concerns that challenges the area’s popularity you will be silently shunned and ignored which counter-intuitively is intolerance. As a solid example review the firing of Brendan Eich from Mozilla. This kind of self-satisfying inward-facing deceptiveness allows any manner of isolating justification, such as ageism. In other areas wisdom and experience are rewarded commodities.

The Bay Area is also stupid expensive. You will make less money elsewhere but be instantly more wealthy. I would need to multiply my salary x3 to live the same in the Bay Area with a House half the size.

[antisthenes]

From everything I've seen, heard, and read on HN, the Bay Area isn't really big on tolerance.

It's big on virtue signaling specific kinds of tolerance towards certain groups, but that's about where it ends. Apparently people past middle age aren't one of those groups.

Sorry if that sounds harsh, but those are my observations as a 3rd party - I have no skin in the game.

[Mononokay]

Eich's donations to causes restricted the freedom of his employees. That's generally considered a "no-no" when it comes to being liked by your employees. Shockingly, they may even protest it.

[uptown]

Is there any possibility you can use the connections you've made over your career to get past the initial screening? At all stages in my career, I've found that personal references do more than almost anything else when trying to get hired. Consider sending an email out to people you used to work with if you can find a way to reach them. There's a good chance many of them have moved to new companies, and a possibility some of those companies may have openings that a former colleague could recommend you as suitable to fill.

[vincentmarle]

You need to focus your USP (unique selling proposition) and gear it towards the position you’re applying for, and yes this may mean you need multiple resumes (as a forcing function, try sticking to 1 page).

When I interview you I don’t really care about the hundreds of things you can do or have done, I only care about the one thing I’m interviewing you for. The oldest person in my team is close to 60 years old and works as a developer next to 20-30 something year olds (doesn’t do any management or VP-ing or whatever on the side). You need to be OK with that and the fact that your boss may be 20-30 years younger than you.

All I remember from his interview is that he had more than 10 years of specific development experience for the job he was applying for. That’s impressive and not something that a younger developer can easily beat you too.

[insvwallhitsyou]

Can relate to most of that. After passing on-site day and hiring committee at a FAANG, was nixed at the executive level for "career trajectory" issues. In other words, "too old". Another place opined "skills rusty" after I pulled a recursive-descent parser off the top of my head in five minutes.

One of the problems with rich companies is that they can afford to have nonsense hiring policies. There's no real pressure to do right by candidates, so why bother?

I ultimately stumbled across a solution of sorts, which was to find a money-poor, non-SV organization with serious tech problems to solve. They're f___ing lucky to have me, they know it, and I'm treated accordingly. Very gratifying.

[mfer]

A few thoughts...

1. A resume isn't a CV. It's more like a sales brochure to sell yourself. Have resumes tailored for different things that show how having you will help them.

2. Age discrimination is a problem. Even though it's illegal and not useful. But, companies would rather spend on lawyers to work around their illegal antics and are not focused on useful (see the open office craze). If they hack around being useful or legal it's ok to hack around their processes.

3. Try looking for something outside of the valley or the companies that want to be like that. There are tech jobs all over and remote gigs for some of them. Look for sane companies where they are at.